firedragon
Veteran Member
Actual Islam includes honor killings, genital mutilation, pushing homosexuals off of high towers, burning people alive in cages, stoning them to death, and the like.
You mean in the Islam you created for yourself?
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Actual Islam includes honor killings, genital mutilation, pushing homosexuals off of high towers, burning people alive in cages, stoning them to death, and the like.
Thats not a problem. The topic is a topic. This is particularly about the Taliban and ISIL and what ever is said in the OP. Not about who favours Shariah, and what is Shariah, etc.
A religion is defined by the beliefs and practices of its members.This thread is opened to discuss ISIL/ISIS/Dais or what ever you wish to call them, and the Taliban, which are the most prominently caricatured representation of Islam by some of the hardline atheistic polemicists in this forum. Not all, but some. It is also prominently used by some Christians, and since of late, by Hindus too, and maybe even others.
What do you think? Is this a true Islam or a false Islam. What are the evidences for this equation?
I know you believe that Westerners are indoctrinated by the media with lies, but most of my understanding of Islam comes from Muslims like the two of you. What did we see in Afghanistan recently during the American evacuation? We saw violent, militant Muslims with beards and guns, and peaceful Muslims that merely wanted to be free to go to school and get a good job. Same religion rendered entirely differently in different people. They're both "true Islam," because they are both actual Islam. The world has to contend with Islam as it is, not as it wishes it were.
One problem that Islam has is that it holds the Quran to be perfect, and extremist groups like the ones you mention can quite plausibly claim to be following the "perfect" book.
I don't think even for most on this forum who are not Muslims that these groups will be seen as typical of Islam, and I doubt this is true either for most others unless they do tend to only imbibe certain forms of media. Many will come into contact with Muslims in daily life and no doubt see that they are much the same as themselves so as for this to affect their views as much as any news items. These groups are at the more extreme ends of the spectrum that encompasses all Muslims and no doubt will be judged as such.This thread is opened to discuss ISIL/ISIS/Dais or what ever you wish to call them, and the Taliban, which are the most prominently caricatured representation of Islam by some of the hardline atheistic polemicists in this forum. Not all, but some. It is also prominently used by some Christians, and since of late, by Hindus too, and maybe even others.
What do you think? Is this a true Islam or a false Islam. What are the evidences for this equation?
So your point is "Plausibility" right? Thats just speculation unless you quote ISIL and the Taliban directly and where they directly quote the Qur'an, which verse, and how they interpret it. Not some cut and paste off some website, direct quote from either of these groups. Lets see what you can produce.
Otherwise, its just speculation on your part.
I disagree.A religion is not defined by popularity contest. It is defined by the contents of its scripture.
However, a religion's followers can implement that scripture however they see fit.
I don't think even for most on this forum who are not Muslims that these groups will be seen as typical of Islam,
Many will come into contact with Muslims in daily life
Any sensible person will try to get their information from those that won't necessarily have an agenda in promoting or doing the opposite as to anything to do with Islam
As much as we have groups like ISIL and the Taliban to show us what is possible at the most extreme end, we also have some examples from the more moderate countries with large Muslim populations, like Indonesia, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, where some of the punishments inflicted in these countries perhaps seems somewhat barbaric to Western eyes.
So we have to integrate all that happens, together with how it is depicted, and with what the Qur'an apparently says - and unless an expert on the latter, we are often left a bit confused. As commented by others, Islam is not one thing, just as most other religious beliefs are not either.
This is your go-to, apologist dodge. You can say whatever you want to, but you meet any criticism with "prove it". Why don't we all play on the same level?
Thanks for the ad hominem. No problem.
But if you think someone can just make some speculation and not prove them or as you put it within parentheses, "prove it", what else do we do? We have to prove it.
Okay, we can start with beheadings, a remedy suggested in the perfect book.
Nah. See, you are intentionally trying to steer it away to your beloved topic.
Read the question. I will cut and paste it.
"direct quote from either of these groups"
That was your request. I answered by demonstrating actions, which some people believe speak louder than words
I know you believe that Westerners are indoctrinated by the media with lies, but most of my understanding of Islam comes from Muslims like the two of you. What did we see in Afghanistan recently during the American evacuation? We saw violent, militant Muslims with beards and guns, and peaceful Muslims that merely wanted to be free to go to school and get a good job. Same religion rendered entirely differently in different people. They're both "true Islam," because they are both actual Islam. The world has to contend with Islam as it is, not as it wishes it were
So you calling yourself "we westerners" just watched TV and worshiped the TV. Good for you.
And it is rendered as some pretty horrible things at various times and places, including terrorism. Actual Islam includes honor killings, genital mutilation, pushing homosexuals off of high towers, burning people alive in cages, stoning them to death, and the like. I understand that peaceful Muslims don't want themselves or their religion to be associated with this side of Islam, and so call them false Muslims and point to the book to show where they're not doing it right, but that doesn't matter to the unbeliever.
You mean in the Islam you created for yourself?
Thanks for the ad hominem. No problem.
But if you think someone can just make some speculation and not prove them or as you put it within parentheses, "prove it", what else do we do? We have to prove it.
I don't believe today there is any true representation of Islam. What do you think? Can you say, who or which is a true representation of Islam in your view?This thread is opened to discuss ISIL/ISIS/Dais or what ever you wish to call them, and the Taliban, which are the most prominently caricatured representation of Islam by some of the hardline atheistic polemicists in this forum. Not all, but some. It is also prominently used by some Christians, and since of late, by Hindus too, and maybe even others.
What do you think? Is this a true Islam or a false Islam. What are the evidences for this equation?
Nope, the one Muslims created, actual Islam, what actually goes on in the world however unflattering it may be to you.
I don't believe today there is any true representation of Islam. What do you think? Can you say, who or which is a true representation of Islam in your view?
Okay. Here is the problem with proving it. If I prove something and you can still act differently, then what I have actually proven? It also works in reverse. That is the problem with all of these words like evidence, truth, proof, logic, rationality and all the rest.