ISIL, Taliban = True Islam??

[Truthseeker]

The word from my research includes these features:


1. Worshiping God sincerely
2. Devoid of love of the Dunya
3. Teaching and learning deeply the mystic knowledge from God and having deep insights in religion.

That all is right on the mark.

 

[The Hammer]

Yeah. I opened it because its a pretty common association. Day in, day out. Sometimes insistently.

Anyway., you made an interesting statement. All Islam is true Islam. How do you mean it? From a sociological bottom up or a theological bottom up?

It's all in one's interpretation of the written scripture, and the acceptance of what is revealed through prophets, right?

And it can be interpreted different ways. There is no right way, only the agreed upon way, of interpretation.

 

[Link]

It's all in one's interpretation of the written scripture, and the acceptance of what is revealed through prophets, right?

And it can be interpreted different ways. There is no right way, only the agreed upon way, of interpretation.

There is a right way, but if you knew it, you'd be a believer of insights yourself.

 

[The Hammer]

There is a right way, but if you knew it, you'd be a believer of insights yourself.

There is a right way yes, but I am not a believer.

 

[sun rise]

Is this a true Islam or a false Islam. What are the evidences for this equation?

Not being a Muslim and having no deep understanding of the history of Islamic theology, my answer is necessarily somewhat superficial, I judge by various ahadith which might be strong or weak. From these my judgement is that ISIL has departed from Islam as Muhammad warned would happen:

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 9, Book 88, Number 183: Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Time will pass rapidly, good deeds will decrease,
miserliness will be thrown (in the hearts of the people) afflictions
will appear and there will be much 'Al-Harj." They said, "O Allah's
Apostle! What is "Al-Harj?" He said, "Killing! Killing!"

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 9, Book 88, Number 185: Narrated Abu Musa:
The Prophet said, "Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days
during which (religious) knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and
general ignorance will spread, and there will be Al-Harj in abundance,
and Al-Harj means killing."

Sayings of The Prophet | Islamic Values
The time is near in which nothing will remain of Islam but its name, and
of the Kuran but its mere appearance, and the mosques of Muslims will be
destitute of of knowledge and worship; and the learned will be the worst
people under the heavens; and contention and strife will issue from them,
and it will return upon themselves.
...
Ye follower of Muhammad, I swear by the Lord, if ye did but know what I
know of the future state, verily ye would laugh little and cry much.
...
Men will be liars towards the end of the world; and will relate such
stories as neither you nor your fathers ever heard. Then avoid them, that
they may not lead you astray and throw you into contention and strife.

 

[firedragon]

The word from my research includes these features:


1. Worshiping God sincerely
2. Devoid of love of the Dunya
3. Teaching and learning deeply the mystic knowledge from God and having deep insights in religion.

That verse doesn't have anything to do with some ascetic scholars. So that's that brother. The rest of what you say here are not relevant to that verse. Good advice, but not in that verse.

 

[firedragon]

It's all in one's interpretation of the written scripture, and the acceptance of what is revealed through prophets, right?

And it can be interpreted different ways. There is no right way, only the agreed upon way, of interpretation.

What you are saying is a sociological bottom up approach. No problem. Its a general understanding of all religions. Sociology of religion.

But there are certain nuances.

Think about it. Where in the Qur'an does it say "stone to death"? Some do it. Its not an interpretation problem, it is a post hoc ergo propter hoc.

 

[firedragon]

I have not tried to authenticate it, but this tradition has been mentioned by Shoghi Effendi. Here:

The text of certain Muḥammadan traditions, the authenticity of which Muslims themselves recognize...
“A day shall be witnessed by My people whereon there will have remained of Islám naught but a name, and of the Qur’án naught but a mere appearance. The doctors of that age shall be the most evil the world hath ever seen. Mischief hath proceeded from them, and on them will it recoil.”
(The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh)
www.bahai.org/r/260284674

Yeah. You should know, it is a belief emerging probably about 1,200 years after Muhammed. I do not wish to discuss Shoghi Effendi and where he got that from in this thread.

 

[firedragon]

Not being a Muslim and having no deep understanding of the history of Islamic theology, my answer is necessarily somewhat superficial, I judge by various ahadith which might be strong or weak. From these my judgement is that ISIL has departed from Islam as Muhammad warned would happen:

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 9, Book 88, Number 183: Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Time will pass rapidly, good deeds will decrease,
miserliness will be thrown (in the hearts of the people) afflictions
will appear and there will be much 'Al-Harj." They said, "O Allah's
Apostle! What is "Al-Harj?" He said, "Killing! Killing!"

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 9, Book 88, Number 185: Narrated Abu Musa:
The Prophet said, "Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days
during which (religious) knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and
general ignorance will spread, and there will be Al-Harj in abundance,
and Al-Harj means killing."

Sayings of The Prophet | Islamic Values
The time is near in which nothing will remain of Islam but its name, and
of the Kuran but its mere appearance, and the mosques of Muslims will be
destitute of of knowledge and worship; and the learned will be the worst
people under the heavens; and contention and strife will issue from them,
and it will return upon themselves.
...
Ye follower of Muhammad, I swear by the Lord, if ye did but know what I
know of the future state, verily ye would laugh little and cry much.
...
Men will be liars towards the end of the world; and will relate such
stories as neither you nor your fathers ever heard. Then avoid them, that
they may not lead you astray and throw you into contention and strife.

Consider this. If you ask an ISIL guy "what is ISIL", he would probably say "well. I heard that phrase from American news".

 

[Kooky]

It's all in one's interpretation of the written scripture, and the acceptance of what is revealed through prophets, right?

And it can be interpreted different ways. There is no right way, only the agreed upon way, of interpretation.

In any religion that relies on a revealed truth - including Islam - some interpretations are considered more valid, and some sources of interpretation as more authoritative, than others.

 

[icehorse]

This thread is opened to discuss ISIL/ISIS/Dais or what ever you wish to call them, and the Taliban, which are the most prominently caricatured representation of Islam by some of the hardline atheistic polemicists in this forum. Not all, but some. It is also prominently used by some Christians, and since of late, by Hindus too, and maybe even others.

What do you think? Is this a true Islam or a false Islam. What are the evidences for this equation?

One problem that Islam has is that it holds the Quran to be perfect, and extremist groups like the ones you mention can quite plausibly claim to be following the "perfect" book.

The problem I see with the OP is that it leaves out a substantial percentage of Muslims who might not be considered "extremists", but who favor some amount of Sharia. I've heard this group named "Islamists" and it seems like a decent name to me. I think Islamists are a bigger problem in the world than extremists.

 

[The Hammer]

In any religion that relies on a revealed truth - including Islam - some interpretations are considered more valid, and some sources of interpretation as more authoritative, than others.

That's what I said. Basically

 

[The Hammer]

Some do it. Its not an interpretation problem, it is a post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Gesundheit

 

[firedragon]

Isn't that a "no true Scotsman" kind of argument. ISIL, the Taliban, Salafism, Wahhabism, Sufi, Shi'a or any other declination of Islam are all "true Islam" if only because this is a purely subjective appreciation of Islamic teachings, scriptures and theology. Some denomination are older or more popular then others, but none can claim some sort of ownership over Islam itself. In the eyes of each of those groups, they are the "true" or at least "truer" version of Islam and the others are more or less misguided or wrong depending on how different they are from one another in terms of value and interpretation.

Not entirely correct.

ISIL and Taliban are not sects, they dont call themselves sects, and they are enemies of each other. Some muslims consider Wahhabism as a sect, but it was a revolutionary one man game played to run over the Arabian peninsula to rule the black gold. It was a movement. Named after a man. A political movement. Idealism is a very strong tool that can be used as a weapon to run over governments, and they did.

Sufism is a sect. Their beliefs are very different from the Shii's or the Sunni's. But there are some scholars who people till today argue about, whether he was a Sunni or a Sufi. Like Ghazzali. Because he was so famous people like to claim him for themselves.

The main difference between Sufi's and Sunnis is "wahdathul Wujood" vs "Wajib al Wujood". Concept of God. Pantheism vs Necessary being. If you ask Sufi's, they dont know what in the world this is. Neither will the Sunni's. Go to a Muslim country. Speak to random people in the street. Lets say Malaysia, Indonesia, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, these people are not bothered. All they want to do is make some money, have a good life, enjoy their time with their children and family, and just live life. For them, ISIL is like some alien monsters who dropped onto earth from some god forsaken planet.

The Taliban was actually influenced heavily by older Sufi groups from the Pakistani/Indian background. It was not theological influence, it was political influence. Its an old story. You have to know a 100 years of history at least. The state of the Taliban and their tyrannical rule prior to the invasion was a thump down of western influence. No. They did not teach them, but they suppressed the rule of liberation in Afghanistan. This is well documented fact. If you went to Afghanistan prior to this new Taliban take over, a year ago, you watch will be stolen right out of the airport. Now, not a single idiot would dare steal anything from anyone. BUT, that does not mean the Taliban is a fuzz bucket. They are brutal. But before they came back, it was a place of corruption. You cant even setup a charity there without paying bribes. Thats why the president flew out of the country with millions and millions of US dollars in cash and lives happily ever after. Bribery.

In every thing that we discuss, there are things that we have never analysed. People are duped.

Thats the problem.

 

[firedragon]

The problem I see with the OP is that it leaves out a substantial percentage of Muslims who might not be considered "extremists", but who favor some amount of Sharia.

Thats not a problem. The topic is a topic. This is particularly about the Taliban and ISIL and what ever is said in the OP. Not about who favours Shariah, and what is Shariah, etc.

 

[firedragon]

Gesundheit

That happens when one doesnt intend to understand.

Pepper would do.

 

[F1fan]

The believer always has the right and true version. The question is why are there versions.

 

[The Hammer]

That happens when one doesnt intend to understand.

Pepper would do.

Nope I understand what it means. I'm just not arguing it.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

This thread is opened to discuss ISIL/ISIS/Dais or what ever you wish to call them, and the Taliban, which are the most prominently caricatured representation of Islam by some of the hardline atheistic polemicists in this forum. Not all, but some. It is also prominently used by some Christians, and since of late, by Hindus too, and maybe even others. What do you think? Is this a true Islam or a false Islam. What are the evidences for this equation?

The non-Muslim is unlikely to think in those terms. When I read "true Muslim" I read "actual Muslim," because I don't really care what's written in holy books, nor whether one calls himself Shia or Sunni, but how the religion is rendered.

And it is rendered as some pretty horrible things at various times and places, including terrorism. Actual Islam includes honor killings, genital mutilation, pushing homosexuals off of high towers, burning people alive in cages, stoning them to death, and the like. I understand that peaceful Muslims don't want themselves or their religion to be associated with this side of Islam, and so call them false Muslims and point to the book to show where they're not doing it right, but that doesn't matter to the unbeliever.

Look at you and Link. Supposedly the same religion and the same book, but the religion is rendered in each of you very differently, and you seem to see one another as misunderstanding the book. You're both Muslims to me, just on different parts of the spectrum.

No no. I asked you where they see Islam through. NEWS?

I know you believe that Westerners are indoctrinated by the media with lies, but most of my understanding of Islam comes from Muslims like the two of you. What did we see in Afghanistan recently during the American evacuation? We saw violent, militant Muslims with beards and guns, and peaceful Muslims that merely wanted to be free to go to school and get a good job. Same religion rendered entirely differently in different people. They're both "true Islam," because they are both actual Islam. The world has to contend with Islam as it is, not as it wishes it were.

 

[firedragon]

Nope I understand what it means. I'm just not arguing it.

Okay okay Hammer. Hammer time.