ISIL, Taliban = True Islam??

[firedragon]

Actual Islam includes honor killings, genital mutilation, pushing homosexuals off of high towers, burning people alive in cages, stoning them to death, and the like.

You mean in the Islam you created for yourself?

 

[icehorse]

Thats not a problem. The topic is a topic. This is particularly about the Taliban and ISIL and what ever is said in the OP. Not about who favours Shariah, and what is Shariah, etc.

Okay, I can let that one go, how about my first point?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This thread is opened to discuss ISIL/ISIS/Dais or what ever you wish to call them, and the Taliban, which are the most prominently caricatured representation of Islam by some of the hardline atheistic polemicists in this forum. Not all, but some. It is also prominently used by some Christians, and since of late, by Hindus too, and maybe even others.

What do you think? Is this a true Islam or a false Islam. What are the evidences for this equation?

A religion is defined by the beliefs and practices of its members.

ISIS and the Taliban are both authentically Muslim. Muslim opponents to them are also authentically Muslim.

 

[firedragon]

I know you believe that Westerners are indoctrinated by the media with lies, but most of my understanding of Islam comes from Muslims like the two of you. What did we see in Afghanistan recently during the American evacuation? We saw violent, militant Muslims with beards and guns, and peaceful Muslims that merely wanted to be free to go to school and get a good job. Same religion rendered entirely differently in different people. They're both "true Islam," because they are both actual Islam. The world has to contend with Islam as it is, not as it wishes it were.

So you calling yourself "we westerners" just watched TV and worshiped the TV. Good for you.

 

[firedragon]

One problem that Islam has is that it holds the Quran to be perfect, and extremist groups like the ones you mention can quite plausibly claim to be following the "perfect" book.

So your point is "Plausibility" right? Thats just speculation unless you quote ISIL and the Taliban directly and where they directly quote the Qur'an, which verse, and how they interpret it. Not some cut and paste off some website, direct quote from either of these groups. Lets see what you can produce.

Otherwise, its just speculation on your part.

 

[Mock Turtle]

This thread is opened to discuss ISIL/ISIS/Dais or what ever you wish to call them, and the Taliban, which are the most prominently caricatured representation of Islam by some of the hardline atheistic polemicists in this forum. Not all, but some. It is also prominently used by some Christians, and since of late, by Hindus too, and maybe even others.

What do you think? Is this a true Islam or a false Islam. What are the evidences for this equation?

I don't think even for most on this forum who are not Muslims that these groups will be seen as typical of Islam, and I doubt this is true either for most others unless they do tend to only imbibe certain forms of media. Many will come into contact with Muslims in daily life and no doubt see that they are much the same as themselves so as for this to affect their views as much as any news items. These groups are at the more extreme ends of the spectrum that encompasses all Muslims and no doubt will be judged as such.

Any sensible person will try to get their information from those that won't necessarily have an agenda in promoting or doing the opposite as to anything to do with Islam, and often coming from Muslim viewpoints too on whatever media source is used. Some might even have some knowledge of the Qur'an as well, so perhaps placing whatever is exhibited into context.

As much as we have groups like ISIL and the Taliban to show us what is possible at the most extreme end, we also have some examples from the more moderate countries with large Muslim populations, like Indonesia, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, where some of the codes of behaviour and/or punishments inflicted in these countries perhaps seems somewhat problematic or barbaric to Western eyes.

So we have to integrate all that happens, together with how it is depicted, and with what the Qur'an apparently says - and unless an expert on the latter, we are often left a bit confused. As commented by others, Islam is not one thing, just as most other religious beliefs are not either.

Edited - second to last paragraph.

 

[icehorse]

So your point is "Plausibility" right? Thats just speculation unless you quote ISIL and the Taliban directly and where they directly quote the Qur'an, which verse, and how they interpret it. Not some cut and paste off some website, direct quote from either of these groups. Lets see what you can produce.

Otherwise, its just speculation on your part.

This is your go-to, apologist dodge. You can say whatever you want to, but you meet any criticism with "prove it". Why don't we all play on the same level?

And second, you seem to think that critics cannot think for yourself. You assume critics are all mere "cut and pasters". sigh. Now to be fair, sometimes other people say really pithy things. What's wrong with repeating a well-turned phrase? Isn't that just standing on the shoulders of giants?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A religion is not defined by popularity contest. It is defined by the contents of its scripture.
However, a religion's followers can implement that scripture however they see fit.

I disagree.

A religion is defined by the belief and practices of its adherents. A religion's scriptures only factor into the religion to the extent that they inform the beliefs and practices of its adherents.

 

[firedragon]

I don't think even for most on this forum who are not Muslims that these groups will be seen as typical of Islam,

Well. that's why the word most was not associated with this notion.

Many will come into contact with Muslims in daily life

E.g. In the U.S, there are 1% Muslims. So most do not come into contact with Muslims in daily life. In some countries, its a yes.

Any sensible person will try to get their information from those that won't necessarily have an agenda in promoting or doing the opposite as to anything to do with Islam

Thats true. But most dont. that's the problem. Most of their knowledge comes from the TV and famous websites. Quick googling. Its a fact.

As much as we have groups like ISIL and the Taliban to show us what is possible at the most extreme end, we also have some examples from the more moderate countries with large Muslim populations, like Indonesia, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, where some of the punishments inflicted in these countries perhaps seems somewhat barbaric to Western eyes.

Its true that some of these so called punishments are barbaric in western eyes. But you should also know that though the west is considered a nice place to live by most of these people, they consider the west as the sky snake who bombs them. Staying away from where they are makes them safe. This is fact. So its a give and take situation.

But that does not justify these muslim countries who practice some horrific laws and regulations. Thats a whole different conversation. Huge topic.

So we have to integrate all that happens, together with how it is depicted, and with what the Qur'an apparently says - and unless an expert on the latter, we are often left a bit confused. As commented by others, Islam is not one thing, just as most other religious beliefs are not either.

Islam is the most eclectic in the world today. Thats the honest truth. Its not easy to discuss the differences. I just do not like to discuss shallowly. But you should know that lets say in the case of the Dais, the muslims immediate reaction was to produce a so called "FATWA" against the ISIS which according to Islamic tradition was a historical Fathawa done after a 1000 years. It was a direct condemnation of these criminals.

But ask around. How many know this. Just ask around. It is not in the news. It will probably never will be.

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

This is your go-to, apologist dodge. You can say whatever you want to, but you meet any criticism with "prove it". Why don't we all play on the same level?

Thanks for the ad hominem. No problem.

But if you think someone can just make some speculation and not prove them or as you put it within parentheses, "prove it", what else do we do? We have to prove it.

 

[icehorse]

Thanks for the ad hominem. No problem.

But if you think someone can just make some speculation and not prove them or as you put it within parentheses, "prove it", what else do we do? We have to prove it.

Okay, we can start with beheadings, a remedy suggested in the perfect book.

 

[firedragon]

Okay, we can start with beheadings, a remedy suggested in the perfect book.

Nah. See, you are intentionally trying to steer it away to your beloved topic.

Read the question. I will cut and paste it.

"direct quote from either of these groups"

 

[icehorse]

Nah. See, you are intentionally trying to steer it away to your beloved topic.

Read the question. I will cut and paste it.

"direct quote from either of these groups"

That was your request. I answered by demonstrating actions, which some people believe speak louder than words

 

[firedragon]

That was your request. I answered by demonstrating actions, which some people believe speak louder than words

Nah. You have to quote them directly. Not preach.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I know you believe that Westerners are indoctrinated by the media with lies, but most of my understanding of Islam comes from Muslims like the two of you. What did we see in Afghanistan recently during the American evacuation? We saw violent, militant Muslims with beards and guns, and peaceful Muslims that merely wanted to be free to go to school and get a good job. Same religion rendered entirely differently in different people. They're both "true Islam," because they are both actual Islam. The world has to contend with Islam as it is, not as it wishes it were

So you calling yourself "we westerners" just watched TV and worshiped the TV. Good for you.

LOL. Is that where you think I saw you and Link? On TV?

How do you think you two are representing your religion here in this thread? Favorably? Not with me.

Blame yourself if you don't like the image and message you send, not TV.

And it is rendered as some pretty horrible things at various times and places, including terrorism. Actual Islam includes honor killings, genital mutilation, pushing homosexuals off of high towers, burning people alive in cages, stoning them to death, and the like. I understand that peaceful Muslims don't want themselves or their religion to be associated with this side of Islam, and so call them false Muslims and point to the book to show where they're not doing it right, but that doesn't matter to the unbeliever.

You mean in the Islam you created for yourself?

Nope, the one Muslims created, actual Islam, what actually goes on in the world however unflattering it may be to you.

I suspect that your purpose with this thread and all others is to promote Islam and to say that it is misunderstood. How do you think that you're doing there? Are a lot of people seeing it your way - that Islam is unfairly represented? Or maybe they see you as being the one attempting to indoctrinate. I do. You're doing it here now. You just keep repeating what you want believed without supporting any of it or rebutting what was said to you the last time. Your idea of a rebuttal is the lone word "irrelevant." Then you repeat your indoctrination mantra.

That's not going to be an effective approach to critical thinkers. In fact, it will be counterproductive. They will assume that your religion taught you to indoctrinate. That's how they taught you, right? Repeating what they wanted you to believe and spread in venues like one until you believed it. It's not just your religion that does that, but yours does it as well.

Let's see how you respond to this post. I suspect that if you write more than one word or phrase, it will be to repeat yourself without rebuttal. That's what I call irrelevant.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Thanks for the ad hominem. No problem.

But if you think someone can just make some speculation and not prove them or as you put it within parentheses, "prove it", what else do we do? We have to prove it.

Okay. Here is the problem with proving it. If I prove something and you can still act differently, then what I have actually proven? It also works in reverse. That is the problem with all of these words like evidence, truth, proof, logic, rationality and all the rest.
If we individually can act differently, what does that say of the world and in the end the ability to prove one true and the other false. That neither are neither true nor false. The truth is that they are different, yet both are parts of the world.
That is it. It is the main problem in philosophy. That some forms of the world seems localized. I.e. what works for you, might not work for me and so in reverse.

So here it is as absurd as it might be. You can't prove something as universally for the world, if I can do it differently and so in reverse.
The shortest version is that the world is the case of the set of everything, something, something else and/or nothing in the same, similar and/or different senses.
So every time someone claims proof and whatever, if I can do it different, I just note that. If I can't, it is a case of same/similar.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This thread is opened to discuss ISIL/ISIS/Dais or what ever you wish to call them, and the Taliban, which are the most prominently caricatured representation of Islam by some of the hardline atheistic polemicists in this forum. Not all, but some. It is also prominently used by some Christians, and since of late, by Hindus too, and maybe even others.

What do you think? Is this a true Islam or a false Islam. What are the evidences for this equation?

I don't believe today there is any true representation of Islam. What do you think? Can you say, who or which is a true representation of Islam in your view?

 

[firedragon]

Nope, the one Muslims created, actual Islam, what actually goes on in the world however unflattering it may be to you.

So please quote me saying "Islam is honor killings, genital mutilation, pushing homosexuals off of high towers, burning people alive in cages, stoning them to death, and the like" as you claimed.

 

[firedragon]

I don't believe today there is any true representation of Islam. What do you think? Can you say, who or which is a true representation of Islam in your view?

Thats not the topic IT.

 

[firedragon]

Okay. Here is the problem with proving it. If I prove something and you can still act differently, then what I have actually proven? It also works in reverse. That is the problem with all of these words like evidence, truth, proof, logic, rationality and all the rest.

Take this example.

One person in this very page says that he has understood islam to be "honor killings, genital mutilation, pushing homosexuals off of high towers, burning people alive in cages, stoning them to death, and the like" and that he probably learned that from me.

Should I say "Yes I did" or ask him to "prove it"?

Think about it.