ISIL, Taliban = True Islam??

[KWED]

A religion is defined by the belief and practices of its adherents. A religion's scriptures only factor into the religion to the extent that they inform the beliefs and practices of its adherents.

What I meant was... Scripture defines a religion in principle. The behaviour of followers defines the religion in practice.

 

[Clara Tea]

ISIS press releases, as well as their publication "Dabiq", contain detailed scriptural references as justification for everything they do.
If you want to debate the issue, you should really know at least a little about it. If you want to go full arrogant patronising, you should know a lot more than that.

If we can't get along with each other, how can we get along with God?

 

[KWED]

Thanks for the ad hominem. No problem.

Still haven't learned what "ad hominem" means then?

But if you think someone can just make some speculation and not prove them or as you put it within parentheses, "prove it", what else do we do? We have to prove it.

 

[Clara Tea]

In chapter 5 of Quran, it says to the people book they are upon nothing unless they implement Torah, Gospels and what is revealed from God (ie. Quran). Muslims today don't care if Islam is implemented or not. They also take some of them as authorities over others, while, it's become a plaything religion, a game of thrones and divisions.

This is while the true Master is God through his chosen ones and revelation, through his rope from himself and from humans.

Almost all religions have merged with politics, to the detriment of religion. Religious principles (thou shalt not kill) have been ignored. The poor have been neglected so we can pay for better bombs. Young men have been drafted into old men's wars for freedom. We fight perpetual wars for peace. Our leaders conflate worship and war ship. Objecting to 3,000 lives lost in 911, President W. Bush killed 1,000,000 innocent Iraqis. Who is the terrorist? The Religious Right advocates the National Rifle Association (an organization of guns and violence, whose members largely want to have an armed rebellion against the US to fight for freedom). The pope is on the NRA's enemy list. So, the pope is the enemy of the Religious Right!!!

We've built hell on earth by not following our religious tenets. Supporting religious groups makes things worse....they don't support the tenets of their own religion.

 

[KWED]

Okay, we can start with beheadings, a remedy suggested in the perfect book.

To be fair, there is no mention of beheading as an approved punishment in the Quran. Oh, but that it kept things that clean and quick...

"Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and spread mischief in the land is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides" - Quran 5:33

So we can see that the Quran prescribed execution by torture as a punishment. But what is "Wage war against Allah" and "spread mischief" I hear you ask.
Well, the most widely used tafsir (book of explanations of the Quran) from one of Islam's most renowned classical scholars explains that these offences include such things as "opposition, contradiction and disbelief" and also "acts of disobedience".

 

[Clara Tea]

Still haven't learned what "ad hominem" means then?

Ad hominem....insults. So, if someone says that we must go to war with Iraq, someone else argues that they have a big nose (does that trump peace?)(does that address the issue of killing?).

 

[Clara Tea]

That all is right on the mark.

I agree.

 

[KWED]

One person in this very page says that he has understood islam to be "honor killings, genital mutilation, pushing homosexuals off of high towers, burning people alive in cages, stoning them to death, and the like" and that he probably learned that from me.

Oh dear.
Usually I put such a wild misrepresentation down to poor comprehension, but with your track record it could also be simple dishonesty.

 

[Clara Tea]

To be fair, there is no mention of beheading as an approved punishment in the Quran. Oh, but that it kept things that clean and quick...

"Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and spread mischief in the land is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides" - Quran 5:33

So we can see that the Quran prescribed execution by torture as a punishment. But what is "Wage war against Allah" and "spread mischief" I hear you ask.
Well, the most widely used tafsir (book of explanations of the Quran) from one of Islam's most renowned classical scholars explains that these offences include such things as "opposition, contradiction and disbelief" and also "acts of disobedience".

Solmon Rushdie (author of Satanic Verses) was one of the few critics of Islam. They issued a Fatwa (like a Mafia hit) against Rushdie. So, Rushdie went into hiding. You don't dare suggest that Islam is murderous, or they will murder you.

 

[KWED]

Ad hominem....insults. So, if someone says that we must go to war with Iraq, someone else argues that they have a big nose (does that trump peace?)(does that address the issue of killing?).

No. Ad hominem is not "insults". It is dismissing an argument because of some feature of the person making the argument rather than the argument itself.
I could say "Listen, you big-nosed twat..." and then give an argument against the war. That is not an ad hom.
"Your argument is stupid because you are a Republican" is an ad hom.

 

[Link]

According to the Quran and sunnah, a person becomes a responsible adult on reaching puberty. This will vary from about 9 years old (the age of Aisha when Muhammad consummated his marriage with her) to around 14, depending on various factors.
The first period or wet dream, or the appearance of pubic hair are cited as indicators.
So "child marriage" is very much permitted in Islam, in principle. Muhammad himself married Aisha when she was 6.

But definitely not 3 year old's which is what scholars even allow.

 

[KWED]

"daesh" I guess is the better word.

Daesh is simply an Arabic acronym equivalent of ISIS.

 

[stevecanuck]

All Islam is true Islam. But this represents a fringe extremist representation/interpretation of those views.

I have another question. A Pakistani Christian woman was sentenced to death for allegedly saying, "At least my Jesus died for me. What did your Mohamed ever do for you?". Yes - death. This sentence was passed down in a court and based on anti-blasphemy laws supported by the vast majority of Pakistanis.

Was that an extremist sentence? And if it was, doesn't that mean that the majority of Pakistani Muslims are extremists?

 

[Link]

Solmon Rushdie (author of Satanic Verses) was one of the few critics of Islam. They issued a Fatwa (like a Mafia hit) against Rushdie. So, Rushdie went into hiding. You don't dare suggest that Islam is murderous, or they will murder you.

Solmon Rushdie didn't criticize Islam. The poor guy just wrote a fiction book, that to something a kin of taking side of the polytheists and perceiving Mohammad (s) as a sorcerer, but the allusion was making a fantasy out of it. He didn't even name Mohammad (s) there.

It's like any fiction that sees miracles as magic. We don't kill and do fatwas against people who invented Assasin's creed (the game).

It was silly of Khomeini (q) but may we all move past that.

 

[Link]

Was that an extremist sentence? And if it was, doesn't that mean that the majority of Pakistani Muslims are extremists?

It was and yes to the latter question.

 

[Link]

The believer always has the right and true version. The question is why are there versions.

It's a good question. There is long and short version replies.

 

[Clara Tea]

So you calling yourself "we westerners" just watched TV and worshiped the TV. Good for you.

The west has its own mindset. Sitting around a campfire eating beans. Leaving the pretty (but aging) owner of the bar to ride off into the sunset (Sheep Hole Mountains, Mojave desert), with our beloved (horses). Horses are everything to cowboys. They take them to stables, and not just any...we make sure that they are the best little horse houses in Texas.

Western justice is fast. First hang em, then figure out if they should have been hung (and take their boots as a fine for their corpses littering the street....Judge Roy Bean).

When W. Bush was governor of Texas, he mocked a death row woman "please don't kill me"...."please don't kill me"...."please don't kill me." I suppose that is the compassion that God wants?

Governor W. Bush rejected DNA evidence and executed a Black prisoner. Kind Kompassionate Konservative.

We choose tough Texans to lead us, but they don't follow God. When Connecticut Yankee (Phillips Academy) Bush, with his Texas ways, made a decision, reverends followed suit.

 

[KWED]

But definitely not 3 year old's which is what scholars even allow.

The problem is the verse in the Quran (65:4) which lists the iddah (waiting period required before having sex with a non-virgin to guarantee paternity of any offspring) of different types of women.
One is "those who have not yet experienced their menses". This clearly implies that it is permissible to have sex with a girl who has not yet had their first period.

Another illustration of the problems of basing a socio-legal system on bits and pieces cobbled together over 20 years, without the ability to revise and edit it.

 

[Link]

Almost all religions have merged with politics, to the detriment of religion. Religious principles (thou shalt not kill) have been ignored. The poor have been neglected so we can pay for better bombs. Young men have been drafted into old men's wars for freedom. We fight perpetual wars for peace. Our leaders conflate worship and war ship. Objecting to 3,000 lives lost in 911, President W. Bush killed 1,000,000 innocent Iraqis. Who is the terrorist? The Religious Right advocates the National Rifle Association (an organization of guns and violence, whose members largely want to have an armed rebellion against the US to fight for freedom). The pope is on the NRA's enemy list. So, the pope is the enemy of the Religious Right!!!

We've built hell on earth by not following our religious tenets. Supporting religious groups makes things worse....they don't support the tenets of their own religion.

You spoken truth. But it's also because we ignore the solution, God did not appoint Enoch, Noah, Seth, Moses, David, etc, all so that such leaders are no longer present on earth. If we want to be ruled by such a leader from God, humanity can do this and will benefit greatly if they do, then one is available always from God.

 

[Link]

The problem is the verse in the Quran (65:4) which lists the iddah (waiting period required before having sex with a non-virgin to guarantee paternity of any offspring) of different types of women.
One is "those who have not yet experienced their menses". This clearly implies that it is permissible to have sex with a girl who has not yet had their first period.

Another illustration of the problems of basing a socio-legal system on bits and pieces cobbled together over 20 years, without the ability to revise and edit it.

There is a medical condition for that so it's not necessarily children.