ISIL, Taliban = True Islam??

[Link]

I know of that tradition, and I believe that is true today.

In chapter 5 of Quran, it says to the people book they are upon nothing unless they implement Torah, Gospels and what is revealed from God (ie. Quran). Muslims today don't care if Islam is implemented or not. They also take some of them as authorities over others, while, it's become a plaything religion, a game of thrones and divisions.

This is while the true Master is God through his chosen ones and revelation, through his rope from himself and from humans.

 

[firedragon]

In chapter 5 of Quran, it says to the people book they are upon nothing unless they implement Torah, Gospels and what is revealed from God (ie. Quran). Muslims today don't care if Islam is implemented or not. They also take some of them as authorities over others, while, it's become a plaything religion, a game of thrones and divisions.

If you wish to have this argument about the same topic, I can open another thread on it. You wish to?

 

[Link]

You have said this same statement 3 times. I have asked you "why" 3 times. You are right in many ways, but I wanna know why you said this.

So why?

The Quran emphasizes to only attribute God the truth and has shown the way to do this. The fact, we ignore how it taught to approach his rope and firm handhold for our whims and dunya and idols among men (scholars, our great ones and leaders we attributed righteousness to them without proof from God).

I'm not saying it's easy, but part of letting go of love of the dunya, is to become scholars of religion ourselves to the best we can, "but rather be ascetic scholars by what you teach of the book and by what you study" (Surah 3, I forget the verse number the line is found in).

 

[KWED]

This thread is opened to discuss ISIL/ISIS/Dais or what ever you wish to call them, and the Taliban, which are the most prominently caricatured representation of Islam by some of the hardline atheistic polemicists in this forum. Not all, but some. It is also prominently used by some Christians, and since of late, by Hindus too, and maybe even others.

What do you think? Is this a true Islam or a false Islam. What are the evidences for this equation?

The first thing you need to understand about Islam is that because of its lack of supreme authority (since Muhammad), there is no definitive "true Islam". One scholar's pronouncements are no more binding than another's. Therefore it is all a matter of subjective interpretation based on two fundamental sources - the Quran and the sunnah.

However, it is undeniable that ISIS eschew the reams of revisionist exegesis and complex philosophical and linguistic arguments favoured by modernists and follow the "This is what Allah and Muhammad said, so that is what they meant" kind of approach.
It seems reasonable to assume that had Muhammad fallen into a wormhole in 630 and emerged a few years ago he would have recognised the Islam practiced by ISIS in Raqqa over the Islam promoted by the likes of the Muslim Council of Britain or the Islamic Society of North America or the governments of Pakistan or Egypt.

 

[firedragon]

ascetic scholars

What is the arabic phrase used in the Quran for this phrase "ascetic scholars"?

 

[Link]

If you wish to have this argument about the same topic, I can open another thread on it. You wish to?

Sure, but it relates to this topic. Islam as is vs Islam ought to be dilemma.

 

[KWED]

All Islam is true Islam. But this represents a fringe extremist representation/interpretation of those views.

It seems extreme by our modern standards, but it is not extreme in the context of the contents of the Quran and sunnah. It is just an unmodernised, retentionist Islam.

 

[Link]

What is the arabic phrase used in the Quran for this phrase "ascetic scholars"?

It's this verse:

مَا كَانَ لِبَشَرٍ أَنْ يُؤْتِيَهُ اللَّهُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحُكْمَ وَالنُّبُوَّةَ ثُمَّ يَقُولَ لِلنَّاسِ كُونُوا عِبَادًا لِي مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَلَٰكِنْ كُونُوا رَبَّانِيِّينَ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تُعَلِّمُونَ الْكِتَابَ وَبِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَدْرُسُونَ


ا رَبَّانِيِّينَ

 

[KWED]

I think of it as false Islam because from what I can tell the majority of Muslims disagree with their actions. That's the state of evidence I have currently, as I have not gone deeper into the matter.

A religion is not defined by popularity contest. It is defined by the contents of its scripture.
However, a religion's followers can implement that scripture however they see fit.

 

[Link]

What is the arabic phrase used in the Quran for this phrase "ascetic scholars"?

The word from my research includes these features:


1. Worshiping God sincerely
2. Devoid of love of the Dunya
3. Teaching and learning deeply the mystic knowledge from God and having deep insights in religion.

 

[Lain]

A religion is not defined by popularity contest. It is defined by the contents of its scripture.
However, a religion's followers can implement that scripture however they see fit.

I'd say rather it's defined by the interpretation, for I think no text is self-evident, but I am not into claims on what the Quran says without knowledge of the Islamic tradition for I also dislike it when non-Christians try and make claims on what my Scriptures say ignoring the Ecclesiastical tradition. So I am not sure what the contents of the Quran are.

 

[KWED]

From where? The NEWS? Fox?

From the Quran, sunnah, tafsir, original biographies, academic histories, etc.
Those are the best sources.

 

[epronovost]

What do you think? Is this a true Islam or a false Islam. What are the evidences for this equation?

Isn't that a "no true Scotsman" kind of argument. ISIL, the Taliban, Salafism, Wahhabism, Sufi, Shi'a or any other declination of Islam are all "true Islam" if only because this is a purely subjective appreciation of Islamic teachings, scriptures and theology. Some denomination are older or more popular then others, but none can claim some sort of ownership over Islam itself. In the eyes of each of those groups, they are the "true" or at least "truer" version of Islam and the others are more or less misguided or wrong depending on how different they are from one another in terms of value and interpretation.

 

[Truthseeker]

Where is that tradition from? Whats the authenticity? How do you authenticate it? Please explain.

I have not tried to authenticate it, but this tradition has been mentioned by Shoghi Effendi. Here:

The text of certain Muḥammadan traditions, the authenticity of which Muslims themselves recognize...
“A day shall be witnessed by My people whereon there will have remained of Islám naught but a name, and of the Qur’án naught but a mere appearance. The doctors of that age shall be the most evil the world hath ever seen. Mischief hath proceeded from them, and on them will it recoil.”
(The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh)
www.bahai.org/r/260284674

 

[firedragon]

It's this verse:

مَا كَانَ لِبَشَرٍ أَنْ يُؤْتِيَهُ اللَّهُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحُكْمَ وَالنُّبُوَّةَ ثُمَّ يَقُولَ لِلنَّاسِ كُونُوا عِبَادًا لِي مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَلَٰكِنْ كُونُوا رَبَّانِيِّينَ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تُعَلِّمُونَ الْكِتَابَ وَبِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَدْرُسُونَ


ا رَبَّانِيِّينَ

I dont know which verse this but there is nothing about "ascetic scholars". This is about idolising yourself. It can even address slavery where one man could consider himself a master. Koonoo ibadhan lee.

Nothing about "ascetic scholars". Maybe you got the wrong verse.

 

[Link]

I'd say rather it's defined by the interpretation, for I think no text is self-evident, but I am not into claims on what the Quran says without knowledge of the Islamic tradition for I also dislike it when non-Christians try and make claims on what my Scriptures say ignoring the Ecclesiastical tradition. So I am not sure what the contents of the Quran are.

Quran is a clear as it gets but it's sorcery that makes it unclear. This is why it says it's people with a disease in their hearts and hard hearts that follow unclear from it. Since it's a book of clear insights and proofs and is written in a clear illuminating matter, God doesn't allow people to follow unclear. It means you are immersed in web of Satanic lies if you are following what is unclear.

The hard hearts and sorcery go together. If we don't fight Iblis and his casting and his whispering in the hearts pertaining to Quran and don't try to break the locks upon it and the knots pertaining to it, then we do so only because the lower life and low desires have been made high or because we belittle God's words and his sent ones (mursaleen) and their words.

This hard to grasp, but once, you start breaking the sorcery, you'll know what I mean.

 

[KWED]

There is false propaganda true, then there is also fault with Muslims. When Shiite "great men and leaders" say you can thigh a three year old and marry toddlers, while this contradicts reasoning and human nature as well as what Quran said about the age of marriage, then we are to blame ourselves also. Most Sunni scholars in the past taught the same, not sure about present day ones, I don't pay attention to them.

What does the Quran say about the age of marriage?

When we talk about hadiths and say it's undoubted numerous and authentic that we are to kill people who insult God's Messengers including Mohammad (s), then we presented unreasonable religion to the world.

When you claim someone is "the best of creation" and the ultimate role model, it's difficult to then also claim that we should ignore what he said.

 

[Link]

I dont know which verse this but there is nothing about "ascetic scholars". This is about idolising yourself. It can even address slavery where one man could consider himself a master. Koonoo ibadhan lee.

Nothing about "ascetic scholars". Maybe you got the wrong verse.

The line "be rabaniyeen" includes being ascetic scholar but also worshiping God devoted to him with a great devotion. Look up classical definition of it, and the word includes the features I mentioned.

 

[Link]

What does the Quran say about the age of marriage?

When you claim someone is "the best of creation" and the ultimate role model, it's difficult to then also claim that we should ignore what he said.

The age of marriage is made to be same as age of intellectual maturity and guidance as well as when orphans can be given responsibility over their wealth. It has not given precise age, because, circumstances vary and people mature differently and this to be analyzed on a individual basis as well as what right guidance and mature guidance entails in the time and place the person is in.

For example, if a person is still child minded, he is not to be let to reign over the wealth given to him as an orphan from the Zakat. Rather, the one responsible over him, is to spend for his sake. And if the person devours that money there is severe consequences in the next world for it.

 

[Link]

From the Quran, sunnah, tafsir, original biographies, academic histories, etc.
Those are the best sources.

Ibn Kathir online is not even fully translated a lot of is hidden. And there is many Sunni, Sufi, Shiite tafsirs better then it.

It's Saudi Arabia and alliance with the Devil, that has made Ibn Kathir this popular. Otherwise, it's a horrible tafsir compared to others.

Daral Munthur by Al-Suyuti much better and more honest tafsir and he is Sunni. But I doubt you read any of that Tafsir.