Islam and Judaism are refuted.

[sooda]

By the way, did that happen? Even if you and others may believe it was written after supposedly it happened?

Yes, Cyrus was considered messiah.

 

[sooda]

So you don't think it could have an extended meaning beyond that.

715 to 686 BCE you claim from haaretz.com. Do you believe that?
Also, I checked your source for your belief and posit now, and read this from haaretz.com concerning the compendium of Isaiah's scroll:
"Isaiah's strange prophecies are of another ilk: it is hard to imagine for what practical purpose royal scribes would keep prophecies such as “And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them” (3:4). How would they check up on this prophecy to see if it indeed comes to pass?"
Yes, the question certainly can be: how would they "check up" on this prophecy to see if it came to pass? Yes indeed. Which is one reason why the scriptures did not stop being written after Isaiah's book. Which you at least admit was written (or redacted) a long time ago.
Do you believe in God by the way?

It already happened .. didn't you study ancient history in school? I believe in God.

 

[firedragon]

Perhaps we can start again. Maybe I'm not understanding you. For instance, what are you specifically saying about Isaiah 9:6 again? Because from what I see the perfect tense of a verb can be used in various ways. To say "a child is born to us," is not common English usage today. Let's say a woman gives birth and the husband is happily telling others about that. For someone to say today, "A son is born to us," rather than "A son has been born," or "A son was born to us," is not the general way of saying that in today's English. Maybe in Elizabethan times, but not now. So translators will have to decide how to look at it and put it in terms we grasp better. That is not saying that all translators think alike.

Can the same translator who translated the word "Vayyikra" as past tense in Genesis 1:5 translate the same word "Vayyikra" in the future tense in Isiah 9:6?

Be specific.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, Cyrus was considered messiah.

Not the only messiah. Yes, messiah is derived from the Hebrew meaning anointed. But in this case, what do you think Cyrus was considered as messiah for?

 

[sooda]

Not the only messiah. Yes, messiah is derived from the Hebrew meaning anointed. But in this case, what do you think Cyrus was considered as messiah for?

The messiah was to be an anointed warrior king who would vanquish the oppressors of the Jews.

Because he (Cyrus) returned the Jewish exiles from Babylon to Jerusalem. In effect, he "redeemed" them. Cyrus the Great is well known history. You really never came across this in your Bible studies either?

 

[dybmh]

Moses never wrote anything. The laws were borrowed from the Code of Hammurabi.

Or... Hammurabi borrowed from somewhere else. It could have been Judaism.... You are assuming that there was nothing before Code of Hammurabi.

Nope.. unless they called paying tribute "slavery". They have invented a history and identity for themselves... but YOU have to reject all other history, written records and archaeology to buy into it.

The two can coexist side by side.

"They have invented..." - that's quite an accusation / conspiracy theory, Sooda.

Moses didn't even know the name of the Pharaoh and he grew up in his household.

OK, I'll bite. Please provide evidence of this; I've never heard this before.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, Cyrus was considered messiah.

So was the High priest in Leviticus 4:3.

But its true that it was referred to as an act of anointing. The anointed priest.

But Cyrus was referred to as the anointed. God spoke to his anointed one. A bit more emphasis but isn't it all just a generic reference? Like in other places where the son is referred to as the fathers messiah or the anointed son? Its a generic word. The importance lies on the one who has anointed the person as who's anointed one. Not like a pot or a lamp that is anointed.

The concept of "The Messiah" is probably the most disputed and more often than not 'cooked up' personality in the field of theology in my opinion.

 

[sooda]

So was the High priest in Leviticus 4:3.

But its true that it was referred to as an act of anointing. The anointed priest.

But Cyrus was referred to as the anointed. God spoke to his anointed one. A bit more emphasis but isn't it all just a generic reference? Like in other places where the son is referred to as the fathers messiah or the anointed son? Its a generic word. The importance lies on the one who has anointed the person as who's anointed one. Not like a pot or a lamp that is anointed.

The concept of "The Messiah" is probably the most disputed and more often than not 'cooked up' personality in the field of theology in my opinion.

There's a long list of messiahs.

Main article: Jewish messianic claimants In Judaism, "messiah" originally meant a divinely appointed king, such as David, Cyrus the Great or Alexander the Great.
List of messiah claimants - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants

 

[YoursTrue]

The messiah was to be an anointed warrior king who would vanquish the oppressors of the Jews.

Because he (Cyrus) returned the Jewish exiles from Babylon to Jerusalem. In effect, he "redeemed" them. Cyrus the Great is well known history. You really never came across this in your Bible studies either?

I have come across it. Although the subject of Cyrus in relation to Babylon is certainly interesting and worthy of study for me, aren't you linking it to what you believe is a misinterpretation of Jesus at Isaiah 9:6 and Chapter 53?

 

[sooda]

I have come across it. Although the subject of Cyrus in relation to Babylon is certainly interesting and worthy of study for me, aren't you linking it to what you believe is a misinterpretation of Jesus at Isaiah 9:6 and Chapter 53?

Christ on a cracker...…….


Cyrus takes Babylon - Livius
Herodotus - Liviuscyrus-takes-babylon
Cyrus takes Babylon In October 539 BCE, the Persian king Cyrus took Babylon , the ancient capital of an empire covering modern Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Israel. In a broader sense, Babylon was the ancient world's capital of scholarship and science.

 

[dybmh]

Main article: Jewish messianic claimants In Judaism, "messiah" originally meant a divinely appointed king, such as David, Cyrus the Great or Alexander the Great.

Messiah did not originally mean divinely appointed king. Yes, that's what Wikipedia said, but it isn't accurately representing the source.

This is what wikipedia's source actually says:

"The name or title of the ideal king of the Messianic age; used also without the article as a proper name".

It's the title of the Ideal King of the Messianic age.

hyperlink >>> jewishencyclopedia.com - MESSIAH

Then it goes into further detail, but the word Messiah in Judaism did not originally mean a divinely appointed king. The word Messiah in Hebrew is similar ( almost identical ) to the word anointed. And Jewish kings were thought to be divinely chosen. But those two facts don't add up to 1 being equivalent to the other.

 

[YoursTrue]

d

There's a long list of messiahs.

Main article: Jewish messianic claimants In Judaism, "messiah" originally meant a divinely appointed king, such as David, Cyrus the Great or Alexander the Great.
List of messiah claimants - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants

The Bible (Isaiah's book) says that Cyrus was a messiah, or anointed one. And, as far as history goes, he certainly proved to release the Jews in Babylon, you seem to agree with that part, even though you go along with the idea that it was written after the release. Note, though, that the Bible also says there would be false messiahs. Since you listed messianic claimants.

 

[YoursTrue]

Cyrus takes Babylon - Livius
Herodotus - Liviuscyrus-takes-babylon
Cyrus takes Babylon In October 539 BCE, the Persian king Cyrus took Babylon , the ancient capital of an empire covering modern Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Israel. In a broader sense, Babylon was the ancient world's capital of scholarship and science.

So you agree that Cyrus took Babylon.

 

[sooda]

Messiah did not originally mean divinely appointed king. Yes, that's what Wikipedia said, but it isn't accurately representing the source.

This is what wikipedia's source actually says:

"The name or title of the ideal king of the Messianic age; used also without the article as a proper name".

It's the title of the Ideal King of the Messianic age.

hyperlink >>> jewishencyclopedia.com - MESSIAH

Then it goes into further detail, but the word Messiah in Judaism did not originally mean a divinely appointed king. The word Messiah in Hebrew is similar ( almost identical ) to the word anointed. And Jewish kings were thought to be divinely chosen. But those two facts don't add up to 1 being equivalent to the other.

Nothing about "divinely" appointed.

The messiah in Judaism (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ‎, translit. māšîaḥ; Greek: χριστός, translit. khristós, lit. 'anointed, covered in oil') is a savior and liberator of the Jewish people. The concept of messianism originated in Judaism, and in the Hebrew Bible, a messiah is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil.

 

[YoursTrue]

So you agree that Cyrus took Babylon. Sorry I have to go so slowly but at least first you agree that Cyrus conquered Babylon.

 

[sooda]

So you agree that Cyrus took Babylon.

Agree? WTF?

 

[YoursTrue]

Nothing about "divinely" appointed.

The messiah in Judaism (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ‎, translit. māšîaḥ; Greek: χριστός, translit. khristós, lit. 'anointed, covered in oil') is a savior and liberator of the Jewish people. The concept of messianism originated in Judaism, and in the Hebrew Bible, a messiah is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil.

From the Hebrew word messiah or mashiach translated into English is generally "anointed one." From the Greek, it is somewhat different, can be Christ in English, means also anointed, or anointed one.

 

[YoursTrue]

Agree? WTF?

Getting a little rattled? Sorry about that. Do you believe then that the Jews were then in captivity in Babylon? Please don't get rattled, I would hope with all your expertise you'd be happy to set things straight.

 

[YoursTrue]

Agree? WTF?

You don't agree? I mean I'm just trying to understand you.

 

[dybmh]

There's a long list of messiahs.
Main article: Jewish messianic claimants In Judaism, "messiah" originally meant a divinely appointed king, such as David, Cyrus the Great or Alexander the Great.

List of messiah claimants - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants

Messiah did not originally mean divinely appointed king. Yes, that's what Wikipedia said, but it isn't accurately representing the source.
This is what wikipedia's source actually says:
"The name or title of the ideal king of the Messianic age; used also without the article as a proper name".
It's the title of the Ideal King of the Messianic age.
hyperlink >>> jewishencyclopedia.com - MESSIAH
Then it goes into further detail, but the word Messiah in Judaism did not originally mean a divinely appointed king. The word Messiah in Hebrew is similar ( almost identical ) to the word anointed. And Jewish kings were thought to be divinely chosen. But those two facts don't add up to 1 being equivalent to the other.

Nothing about "divinely" appointed.
The messiah in Judaism (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ‎, translit. māšîaḥ; Greek: χριστός, translit. khristós, lit. 'anointed, covered in oil') is a savior and liberator of the Jewish people. The concept of messianism originated in Judaism, and in the Hebrew Bible, a messiah is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil.

"Nothing about divinely" - Please see post #408 quoted above. The word "divinely" is bold.

Also, it looks like you are using wikipedia as a source.

It's simply not accurate so far regarding the Messiah in Judaism. A "messiah" is not a king or high priest. It's simply not. I think it's a translation problem. As I said before, a king is anointed, but that doesn't make them a messiah.

Here's a different source showing that The Messiah is much different than an anointed king or priest:

hyperlink >>> Judaism101 - Mashiach ( The Messiah )

"Belief in the eventual coming of the mashiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the mashiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service."

Note that "Belief in [The Messiah] is a fundamental part of traditional Judaism"