Do extremists follow the example of Muhammad?

[Dawnofhope]

It isn't just that verse.... Muhammad cut off hundreds of heads.... isn't that enough to tell you Muhammad was an extremist?

I like to breath and reflect before making judgements.

Lets put the verse in context using and another translation and see if it means the same thing:

If any one slew a person - unless it be as punishment for murder or for spreading corruption in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Quran 5:32-34

The American Muslim (TAM)

 

[Spiderman]

I like to breath and reflect before making judgements.

Lets put the verse in context using and another translation and see if it means the same thing:

If any one slew a person - unless it be as punishment for murder or for spreading corruption in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Quran 5:32-34

Thanks

 

[Dawnofhope]

Are you denying that Muhammad cut off hundreds of heads?

You and I were not present. I am not an Islamic apologist. However here is an excerpt from a talk given by Abdu'l-Baha about Muhammad that provides another perspective and some context to why some Muslims and many in the West believe Muhammad was a butcher:

'For example, a foolish individual once told a Christian priest that the proof of true greatness lies in surpassing bravery and bloodshed, and that in a single day one of the followers of Muḥammad had beheaded a hundred men on the battlefield! This led the priest to surmise that the proof of Muḥammad’s religion consisted in killing, which is nothing but vain imagination. On the contrary, Muḥammad’s military expeditions were always defensive in nature. The clear proof is this: For thirteen years both He and His companions endured in Mecca the most intense persecutions and were the constant target of the darts of hatred. Some of His companions were killed and their possessions pillaged; others forsook their native country and fled to foreign lands. Muḥammad Himself was subjected to the severest persecutions and was obliged, when His enemies resolved to kill Him, to flee Mecca in the middle of the night and emigrate to Medina. Yet even then His enemies did not relent, but pursued the Muslims all the way to Medina and to Abyssinia.

These Arab tribes were most barbarous and rapacious, and in comparison with them the wild and fierce natives of America were the Platos of the age, for they did not bury their children alive as these Arabs did their daughters, claiming this to be an act of honour and taking pride therein. Thus many of the men would threaten their wives, saying, “If a daughter is born to you, I will kill you.” Even to the present day the Arabs dread having daughters.'

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

 

[shunyadragon]

I already addressed that. I said that verse 27 doesn't seem to have anything to do with that parable. Maybe someone just put words in Jesus' mouth.

Not an adequate explanation. You appear to be just passing the buck.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Not an adequate explanation. You appear to be just passing the buck.

No one knows what the Jesus character actually said or did or not. The various gospels (and there's way more than 4) weren't written down until decades later and they weren't written by eyewitnesses.

 

[Shiranui117]

A parable about what? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the preceeding verses, as if it was added as an afterthought. Even if you interpret as being about the last judgment, Jesus still comes out sounding like a murderous tyrant making threats.

Also, Jesus ordered his disciples to buy swords in Luke 22:36.

And when the Twelve actually bought two swords, Jesus said to them, "Enough!" He was warning about the instability that would come. The Fathers state that this verse is Jesus urging the Apostles toHaving a means to defend yourself is always useful, and Jesus' urging the Disciples to buy swords was a hyperbolic way of saying that crap was going to be hitting the fan. (And as we know from history, it did only a few decades later.)

Plus, having a sword while traveling is very useful for self-defence during those times. Or a spear, or at least a dagger or an axe.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And when the Twelve actually bought two swords, Jesus said to them, "Enough!" He was warning about the instability that would come. The Fathers state that this verse is Jesus urging the Apostles toHaving a means to defend yourself is always useful, and Jesus' urging the Disciples to buy swords was a hyperbolic way of saying that crap was going to be hitting the fan. (And as we know from history, it did only a few decades later.)

Plus, having a sword while traveling is very useful for self-defence during those times. Or a spear, or at least a dagger or an axe.

There seems to be a contradiction here. Either the disciples were to face persecution in stride or were to gain arms and fight back. So which is it?

 

[Spiderman]

Late to the thread, but just a rhetorical point.

"Moderate" and "Extreme" are words which are commonly used to describe various politically involved groups in discourse and I don't find either to be specifically useful without providing definitions.

Extremeness is generally always seen as a bad thing when referred to in political discourse because the standard in the west is to have a strong emphasis that being close to the political center is a better way to be unbiased or more flexible. An Appeal to Moderation is a logical fallacy.

An Extreme muslim could be many things.

It could be an ISIS militant. It could be a member of Boko Haram. Or another islamist terrorist group.

They could be extremely adamant yet peaceful.

They could be a member of the Nation of Islam who worked with the extreme group the Black Panthers who were concerned about social justice in a correct way?

They could be someone with an extreme new viewpoint.

In other words, a group or person that is "extreme" is not necessarily bad or good one the basis of their extremeness. How their extremeness manifests through their actions is what is significant.
What do you mean by moderate and extreme?

By extreme I mean cutting off heads and hands, stoning adulterers, killing homosexuals, forcing laws that women must be veiled or sexually assaulted, persecuting non-muslim faiths , waging Jihad etc.

 

[YmirGF]

But even Christ said to bring those who refuse to allow him to reign over them before him and slay them in front of them. (Luke 19:27)

Given that his followers never did this makes me think that his followers knew what he actually meant and what he meant was not literal.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Given that his followers never did this makes me think that his followers knew what he actually meant and what he meant was not literal.

Except that there were laws prescribing the death penalty for "pagans" in Christian lands for many centuries.

For example: Christian Persecution of Paganism
Christian Persecution of Pagans and Heathens - Bad News About Christianity

Christians were just as loony as ISIS for centuries when it came to treating people of different religions.

 

[Shiranui117]

There seems to be a contradiction here. Either the disciples were to face persecution in stride or were to gain arms and fight back. So which is it?

Again, it was hyperbolic. it's clear from history that the Apostles were to bear their persecution as Christ did: Patiently, with humility and love. This shows in that all but one of the Apostles (not counting Judas) met their ends with martyrdom at the hands of the Jews or the Romans.

 

[shunyadragon]

No one knows what the Jesus character actually said or did or not. The various gospels (and there's way more than 4) weren't written down until decades later and they weren't written by eyewitnesses.

True, but what we have to deal with is the Christian scriptures as compiled by the Church Fathers, and which became the Bible we know today.

 

[RoaringSilence]

Who better follows the example of Muhammad?

1. Extremists
2. Moderate Muslims.
3. Both

3. He was Bipolar .

 

[Laika]

Quran 5:33 Indeed, the punishment of those who fight Allah and His Messenger and who go around corrupting the land is to be killed, crucified, have their hands and feet cut off on opposite sides, or to be banished from the land. That is a disgrace for them in this life, and in the life to come theirs will be a terrible punishment.

I didn't want to start another thread like this, but I learned a lot in the other threads I started like this, and I'm very curious to see what the answers are.

So, to be fair, it isn't just Islam, it is Abrahamic monotheism that I'm growing increasingly disgusted with.

However, this so called prophet Muhammad makes my blood boil sometimes with his extremist views. I see that I can't fault extremist Muslims for just behaving like the founder of their Religion.

I live with a Muslim. He's an awesome person. I love him and desire that he gets every blessing and good thing in this life. We do studies of the Koran and I present my questions to him. He says "that's not Islam.". I don't force the issue because it won't do any good.

I tried to kid myself into believing Mustafa is the example of a true Muslim and that Muhammad must have been like that.

I've prayed at a mosque and known plenty of Muslims. I think most are good people.

Actually, the Muslims that cut off heads and kill innocent people are doing what Muhammad did. ISIS cuts off heads because Muhammad did. Muhammad participated in and ordered the decapitation of hundreds of Jews, Christians, and Pagans.

He also destroyed what was sacred to the polytheists. I suppose that is why his followers today destroy ancient shrines and temples.

The harsh laws in Saudi Arabia resemble the laws and policies that he laid down. Cutting off the hands of theives is in the Koran.

So, who follows the example of Muhammad better, extremists or moderate Muslims?

Please don't answer the poll unless you have studied the life of Muhammad. You can quickly Google his atrocities. For the record, I don't consider King David or some of the OT figures any better than Muhammad.

Abrahamic monotheism is the Religion I adhere to, but our history makes my hair stand on end!

Dude, Don't be hard of Muslims or Christians or anyone else for that matter. The human race is pretty vile even with the best of intentions. If your starting to feel sorry for yourself for worshipping an evil belief system, you should have a look at mine.

Spoiler

“We will turn our hearts into steel, which we will temper in the fire of suffering and the blood of fighters for freedom. We will make our hearts cruel, hard, and immovable, so that no mercy will enter them, and so that they will not quiver at the sight of a sea of enemy blood. We will let loose the floodgates of that sea. Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of hundreds. Let them be thousands; let them drown themselves in their own blood. For the blood of Lenin and Uritsky, Zinovief and Volodarski, let there be floods of the blood of the bourgeois - more blood, as much as possible.” (Bolshevik newspaper "Krasnaya Gazeta" 1918)

"The idea of a concentration camp is excellent" (Joseph Stalin)

"We must rid ourselves once and for all of the Quaker-Papist notion about the Sanctity of human life" (Leon Trotsky)

"It is our duty to destroy every religious world-concept... If the destruction of ten million human beings, as happened in the last war, should be necessary for the triumph of one definite class, then that must be done and it will be done." (Yaroslavsky, 1929)

"We do assert, however, that we must follow the road of liberation even though it may cost millions of nuclear war victims. In the struggle to death between two systems we cannot think of anything but the final victory of socialism or its relapse as a consequence of the nuclear victory of imperialist aggression." (Che Guevara, 1962).

“I’m not afraid of nuclear war. There are 2.7 billion people in the world; it doesn’t matter if some are killed. China has a population of 600 million; even if half of them are killed, there are still 300 million people left. I’m not afraid of anyone.” (Mao Tse Tung, 1957)

“When there is not enough to eat people starve to death. It is better to let half of the people die so that the other half can eat their fill.”
- Mao Zedong

“Deaths have benefits. They can fertilise the ground.”
- Mao Zedong

And if you think that's bad, here's some sayings from the Khmer Rouge:

"To keep you is no benefit. To destroy you is no loss."

"You can arrest someone by mistake; never release him by mistake."

"Better to kill an innocent by mistake than spare an enemy by mistake."

"Better to arrest ten innocent people by mistake than free a single guilty party."

"He who protests is an enemy; he who opposes is a corpse."

Doesn't it make you feel all warm and cuddly inside about the bright future we can look forward to? I think I can stop screaming now.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Quran 5:33 Indeed, the punishment of those who fight Allah and His Messenger and who go around corrupting the land is to be killed, crucified, have their hands and feet cut off on opposite sides, or to be banished from the land. That is a disgrace for them in this life, and in the life to come theirs will be a terrible punishment.

I didn't want to start another thread like this, but I learned a lot in the other threads I started like this, and I'm very curious to see what the answers are.

So, to be fair, it isn't just Islam, it is Abrahamic monotheism that I'm growing increasingly disgusted with.

However, this so called prophet Muhammad makes my blood boil sometimes with his extremist views. I see that I can't fault extremist Muslims for just behaving like the founder of their Religion.

I live with a Muslim. He's an awesome person. I love him and desire that he gets every blessing and good thing in this life. We do studies of the Koran and I present my questions to him. He says "that's not Islam.". I don't force the issue because it won't do any good.

I tried to kid myself into believing Mustafa is the example of a true Muslim and that Muhammad must have been like that.

I've prayed at a mosque and known plenty of Muslims. I think most are good people.

Actually, the Muslims that cut off heads and kill innocent people are doing what Muhammad did. ISIS cuts off heads because Muhammad did. Muhammad participated in and ordered the decapitation of hundreds of Jews, Christians, and Pagans.

He also destroyed what was sacred to the polytheists. I suppose that is why his followers today destroy ancient shrines and temples.

The harsh laws in Saudi Arabia resemble the laws and policies that he laid down. Cutting off the hands of theives is in the Koran.

So, who follows the example of Muhammad better, extremists or moderate Muslims?

Please don't answer the poll unless you have studied the life of Muhammad. You can quickly Google his atrocities. For the record, I don't consider King David or some of the OT figures any better than Muhammad.

Abrahamic monotheism is the Religion I adhere to, but our history makes my hair stand on end!

I tend to think you don't adhere to anything.....You say you're disgusted by Abrahamic monotheism but you're consistently focusing on Islam (like others here). If you don't like the religion fine but discussing it over and over with the same stuff is getting tiresome to read. It's too repetitive.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Don't pay attention to our history, Pope. Pay attention to Jesus Christ and His apostles.

Don't pay attention to the Salem Witch Trials, The Inquisition, The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade, The land grabbing from the native Americans, The Crusades etc...

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I voted the moderate Muslims better follow the example of Muhammad.

It would be helpful to ask the Muslims to provide some context to the verse you have quoted.

Maybe your Muslim flatmate would be a good starting point?

He is not concerned with the views of Muslims he is posting just to post...

 

[LuisDantas]

Who better follows the example of Muhammad?

1. Extremists
2. Moderate Muslims.
3. Both

3. He was Bipolar .

Not so much bipolar, as non-religious.

The Qur'an teaches devotion to (a conception of) God and a series of hopes and fears that are sustained by that belief and devotion.

Not a particularly sane belief, but things are what they are.

Nor would I call it bipolarity, which is an organic disease and, from what I see, is fiercely fought against by the afflicted themselves. It does seem to attempt to encourage some symptions of psychosis or delusional disorder, which is a very different maladie.

In any case, it is dangerous to attempt to understand Islaam without acknowledging that its political aspects are at least as significative than its matters of faith. Frankly, it is rather underdeveloped and self-sabotaging far as religious doctrines go. The political aspects are not particularly healthy either, but they are at least better developed.

 

[Rival]

Not so much bipolar, as non-religious.

The Qur'an teaches devotion to (a conception of) God and a series of hopes and fears that are sustained by that belief and devotion.

Not a particularly sane belief, but things are what they are.

Nor would I call it bipolarity, which is an organic disease and, from what I see, is fiercely fought against by the afflicted themselves. It does seem to attempt to encourage some symptions of psychosis or delusional disorder, which is a very different maladie.

In any case, it is dangerous to attempt to understand Islaam without acknowledging that its political aspects are at least as significative than its matters of faith. Frankly, it is rather underdeveloped and self-sabotaging far as religious doctrines go. The political aspects are not particularly healthy either, but they are at least better developed.

This gave me the metal image of Islam as an aborted Downs Syndrome feotus.

I make no apologies for my brain.

 

[DavidFirth]

Don't pay attention to the Salem Witch Trials, The Inquisition, The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade, The land grabbing from the native Americans, The Crusades etc...

Right, but you left out the part about paying attention to Jesus and His Apostles only.