Do extremists follow the example of Muhammad?

[LuisDantas]

My guess is, and it is just a guess, that God judged those godless people after thousands of years and cast them out of His sight the same way does all nations that disobey Him. The good ole USA will come under judgement one day, too, rest assured.

What would constitute judgment of godless people by your view?

 

[sayak83]

Dude, Don't be hard of Muslims or Christians or anyone else for that matter. The human race is pretty vile even with the best of intentions. If your starting to feel sorry for yourself for worshipping an evil belief system, you should have a look at mine.

Spoiler

“We will turn our hearts into steel, which we will temper in the fire of suffering and the blood of fighters for freedom. We will make our hearts cruel, hard, and immovable, so that no mercy will enter them, and so that they will not quiver at the sight of a sea of enemy blood. We will let loose the floodgates of that sea. Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of hundreds. Let them be thousands; let them drown themselves in their own blood. For the blood of Lenin and Uritsky, Zinovief and Volodarski, let there be floods of the blood of the bourgeois - more blood, as much as possible.” (Bolshevik newspaper "Krasnaya Gazeta" 1918)

"The idea of a concentration camp is excellent" (Joseph Stalin)

"We must rid ourselves once and for all of the Quaker-Papist notion about the Sanctity of human life" (Leon Trotsky)

"It is our duty to destroy every religious world-concept... If the destruction of ten million human beings, as happened in the last war, should be necessary for the triumph of one definite class, then that must be done and it will be done." (Yaroslavsky, 1929)

"We do assert, however, that we must follow the road of liberation even though it may cost millions of nuclear war victims. In the struggle to death between two systems we cannot think of anything but the final victory of socialism or its relapse as a consequence of the nuclear victory of imperialist aggression." (Che Guevara, 1962).

“I’m not afraid of nuclear war. There are 2.7 billion people in the world; it doesn’t matter if some are killed. China has a population of 600 million; even if half of them are killed, there are still 300 million people left. I’m not afraid of anyone.” (Mao Tse Tung, 1957)

“When there is not enough to eat people starve to death. It is better to let half of the people die so that the other half can eat their fill.”
- Mao Zedong

“Deaths have benefits. They can fertilise the ground.”
- Mao Zedong

And if you think that's bad, here's some sayings from the Khmer Rouge:

"To keep you is no benefit. To destroy you is no loss."

"You can arrest someone by mistake; never release him by mistake."

"Better to kill an innocent by mistake than spare an enemy by mistake."

"Better to arrest ten innocent people by mistake than free a single guilty party."

"He who protests is an enemy; he who opposes is a corpse."

Doesn't it make you feel all warm and cuddly inside about the bright future we can look forward to? I think I can stop screaming now.

You are the oddest Communist I have ever come across.
It's a compliment.

 

[DavidFirth]

Yeah I sure was born in the 1600's. Gee I must have the fountain of youth. As far as my God, he allowed it to happen so that future generations would change this country.

So what are you doing about it now? Huh?

 

[DavidFirth]

What would constitute judgment of godless people by your view?

I'm not sure I understand your question. The Creator, who is holy, has every right to judge those He created.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not sure I understand your question. The Creator, who is holy, has every right to judge those He created.

If you say so.

But what would such judgement be?

 

[Rival]

You are the oddest Communist I have ever come across.
It's a compliment.

You should see my score


Or maybe not.

 

[DavidFirth]

If you say so.

But what would such judgement be?

Have you read any of the Bible? If so, you should already know the answer to that question.

 

[LuisDantas]

Have you read any of the Bible? If so, you should already know the answer to that question.

I don't think the Bible has enough logical coherence to answer many useful questions, so I can't say I agree.

 

[DavidFirth]

I don't think the Bible has enough logical coherence to answer many useful questions, so I can't say I agree.

Hmm. You must not have been paying much attention to what you were reading. God's standards for conduct are in nearly every book of the Bible.

 

[Spiderman]

He is not concerned with the views of Muslims he is posting just to post...

Not true! Actually, I was corrected on my last thread like this and informed about something important that I was uninformed about, and learned a great deal from the thread. I am especially interested in what Muslims have to say.

For instance, I didn't know the Hadith's were written centuries after Muhammad's life. Now I know thanks to this thread.

See, I knew I'd learn something from it and I appreciate the correction + info.

You really shouldn't judge me like that. You don't know what goes on in my head. I did a Koran study with my Muslim roommate yesterday. I wish I could be more like him and respect what he believes.

I'm trying to learn more about Islam.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hmm. You must not have been paying much attention to what you were reading. God's standards for conduct are in nearly every book of the Bible.

Eh. If you say so.

Me, I know better.

 

[Notanumber]

"that's not Islam."

That seems to be the stock answer to any difficult question.

 

[Spiderman]

That seems to be the stock answer to any difficult question.

It really is, and he's a good humble person , so I respect what he holds sacred and don't force the issue.

He doesn't seem to know what I know because he studies only pro-muslim moderate information.

Every Muslim I've talked with about the issue says that the extremist radical behavior isn't Muslim

 

[Notanumber]

I like to breath and reflect before making judgements.

Lets put the verse in context using and another translation and see if it means the same thing:

If any one slew a person - unless it be as punishment for murder or for spreading corruption in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Quran 5:32-34

The American Muslim (TAM)

This makes more sense.

 

[Notanumber]

You and I were not present. I am not an Islamic apologist. However here is an excerpt from a talk given by Abdu'l-Baha about Muhammad that provides another perspective and some context to why some Muslims and many in the West believe Muhammad was a butcher:

'For example, a foolish individual once told a Christian priest that the proof of true greatness lies in surpassing bravery and bloodshed, and that in a single day one of the followers of Muḥammad had beheaded a hundred men on the battlefield! This led the priest to surmise that the proof of Muḥammad’s religion consisted in killing, which is nothing but vain imagination. On the contrary, Muḥammad’s military expeditions were always defensive in nature. The clear proof is this: For thirteen years both He and His companions endured in Mecca the most intense persecutions and were the constant target of the darts of hatred. Some of His companions were killed and their possessions pillaged; others forsook their native country and fled to foreign lands. Muḥammad Himself was subjected to the severest persecutions and was obliged, when His enemies resolved to kill Him, to flee Mecca in the middle of the night and emigrate to Medina. Yet even then His enemies did not relent, but pursued the Muslims all the way to Medina and to Abyssinia.

These Arab tribes were most barbarous and rapacious, and in comparison with them the wild and fierce natives of America were the Platos of the age, for they did not bury their children alive as these Arabs did their daughters, claiming this to be an act of honour and taking pride therein. Thus many of the men would threaten their wives, saying, “If a daughter is born to you, I will kill you.” Even to the present day the Arabs dread having daughters.'

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

I hope you don’t mind me asking, but do you honestly believe that?

 

[Notanumber]

I tend to think you don't adhere to anything.....You say you're disgusted by Abrahamic monotheism but you're consistently focusing on Islam (like others here). If you don't like the religion fine but discussing it over and over with the same stuff is getting tiresome to read. It's too repetitive.

It’s educational.

As my mentor used to say, “Learning all the time”.

 

[Notanumber]

Don't pay attention to the Salem Witch Trials, The Inquisition, The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade, The land grabbing from the native Americans, The Crusades etc...

Who were major participants in The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade?

 

[Shia Islam]

Quran 5:33 Indeed, the punishment of those who fight Allah and His Messenger and who go around corrupting the land is to be killed, crucified, have their hands and feet cut off on opposite sides, or to be banished from the land. That is a disgrace for them in this life, and in the life to come theirs will be a terrible punishment.

I didn't want to start another thread like this, but I learned a lot in the other threads I started like this, and I'm very curious to see what the answers are.

So, to be fair, it isn't just Islam, it is Abrahamic monotheism that I'm growing increasingly disgusted with.

However, this so called prophet Muhammad makes my blood boil sometimes with his extremist views. I see that I can't fault extremist Muslims for just behaving like the founder of their Religion.

I live with a Muslim. He's an awesome person. I love him and desire that he gets every blessing and good thing in this life. We do studies of the Koran and I present my questions to him. He says "that's not Islam.". I don't force the issue because it won't do any good.

I tried to kid myself into believing Mustafa is the example of a true Muslim and that Muhammad must have been like that.

I've prayed at a mosque and known plenty of Muslims. I think most are good people.

Actually, the Muslims that cut off heads and kill innocent people are doing what Muhammad did. ISIS cuts off heads because Muhammad did. Muhammad participated in and ordered the decapitation of hundreds of Jews, Christians, and Pagans.

He also destroyed what was sacred to the polytheists. I suppose that is why his followers today destroy ancient shrines and temples.

The harsh laws in Saudi Arabia resemble the laws and policies that he laid down. Cutting off the hands of theives is in the Koran.

So, who follows the example of Muhammad better, extremists or moderate Muslims?

Please don't answer the poll unless you have studied the life of Muhammad. You can quickly Google his atrocities. For the record, I don't consider King David or some of the OT figures any better than Muhammad.

Abrahamic monotheism is the Religion I adhere to, but our history makes my hair stand on end!

Hi,
Two points are needed to mentioned in relation to your post.

1. (Or First!)

Many non-Muslims would open the Quran, choose a verse and will derive a conclusion from it..

What is needed to be understood is that the Quran has been revealed in around twenty years and then it was compiled..
Interpreting the Quran is not for the ordinary Muslims, rather than the non-Muslims.

In Shia Islams, the Imams are the Ones who interpret the Quran..
In Sunni Islam, it's the Scholars..

Now just notice what have you done with the verse you picked!
The verse is not about war..

It's related to what is called the al-Hirabah الحرابة

al-Hirabah is like some gangs or criminals who will for example, hide in the Way taken by the pilgrims, and will attack the Pilgrims, they would kill, steal, rape its..

Mainly these gangs and criminals would be Muslims..
So the verse is about fighting crimes not about what is called as the Islamic conquests..

2. (Or second!)

You will not understand Islam without studying the Shia View...
You need to study all the views ..

According to the Shiites, the enemies of Islam, were able to penetrate Islam...They distorted the "mainstream Islam" (as it is called) .

Why did the Muslim burn the library of Alexandria?!!
Why the Sunni Hadith books were written in the second Islamic century?!!

The distortions that the ancient Caliphs (as they call them) have done, have many contemporary results..

However, for those who have studied Islam well, they know what islam is!

 

[Spiderman]

Hi,
Two points are needed to mentioned in relation to your post.

1. (Or First!)

Many non-Muslims would open the Quran, choose a verse and will derive a conclusion from it..

What is needed to be understood is that the Quran has been revealed in around twenty years and then it was compiled..
Interpreting the Quran is not for the ordinary Muslims, rather than the non-Muslims.

In Shia Islams, the Imams are the Ones who interpret the Quran..
In Sunni Islam, it's the Scholars..

Now just notice what have you done with the verse you picked!
The verse is not about war..

It's related to what is called the al-Hirabah الحرابة

al-Hirabah is like some gangs or criminals who will for example, hide in the Way taken by the pilgrims, and will attack the Pilgrims, they would kill, steal, rape its..

Mainly these gangs and criminals would be Muslims..
So the verse is about fighting crimes not about what is called as the Islamic conquests..

2. (Or second!)

You will not understand Islam without studying the Shia View...
You need to study all the views ..

According to the Shiites, the enemies of Islam, were able to penetrate Islam...They distorted the "mainstream Islam" (as it is called) .

Why did the Muslim burn the library of Alexandria?!!
Why the Sunni Hadith books were written in the second Islamic century?!!

The distortions that the ancient Caliphs (as they call them) have done, have many contemporary results..

However, for those who have studied Islam well, they know what islam is!

I like Shiites...most of the extremists are Sunni and the Shiites get raped, tortured, and killed a lot by Sunni's. I sympathize with them.

 

[Augustus]

Sure it does. We have written evidence of it as it is known to have come from the mouths of the witnesses to it. You believe what you want to believe, not what is believable.

So you also believe Muhammad split the moon in half and flew to Jerusalem on a winged donkey?

These actually have much stronger evidence for them given that the only evidence for either is the Islamic tradition and these events are described in mutawatir hadiths (and potentially the Quran if the hadiths are to be believed).