Should Mormons Be Considered A Cult

[tumbleweed41]

Yes I do. I believe every word of it and because of what it has said I have left everything that I held dear to me: family, friends, money, secrutiy. So that I can help the homeless, poor, broken hearted, drug addict, homosexual,drunk. I am currently in debt because Im pursuing the call of God on my life. I am attending college and paying money so that I can be in ministry to help people in need not only physically but also spiritually.

So you accept that Jesus taught that Salvation is available through works?

 

[zomg]

Exactly what in the book do you believe to be false? What was misrepresented? If there had been no apostasy, there would have been no need for a restoration. Explaining how Christianity changed over the years is hardly the same as selling books describing the Catholic doctrine of transsubstantiation as cannibalism. You know that as well as the next person.

"You can go into any LDS bookstore (Deseret Book is by far the largest) and you will not find a single, solitary book bashing any other religion."

I was just pointing out that there is a book which, in a way, bashes other religions being sold at Deseret Book. While it may not be extreme as Mormon bashing books it still attacks other religions by trying to prove Mormonism true.

 

[abc123kid]

So you accept that Jesus taught that Salvation is available through works?

Nope I do not. This passage refers to Christ Judgement in the future where both the save and the lost-(those who have personal relationship and those who do not). The Judgement will be based on outward works of love and kindness to those who follow Christ and/or in need. Good works cannot save us,our actions to opportunities will affect our reward and our punishment.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Nope I do not. This passage refers to Christ Judgement in the future where both the save and the lost-(those who have personal relationship and those who do not). The Judgement will be based on outward works of love and kindness to those who follow Christ and/or in need. Good works cannot save us,our actions to opportunities will affect our reward and our punishment.

Ah, and would you consider those who do read these passages and accept Jesus at his word that works are necessary for salvation as Christians?

 

[Katzpur]

Okay,I can not say that I know more Mormon doctrine than you because 1) i do not know how much Mormon doctrine you know. I only know how much Mormon doctrine i "know". In order to compare I would have to be you and know how much you know.

Well, I've been a practicing Mormon all my life and I am now 63 years old. I know my religion backwards and forwards, upside down and right side up, inside out and outside in. Does that help?

IAnd i do not know how to answer your second concern. And if i have read something in the Mormon Bible and you say something different I will question your honesty or your just being ignorant of what is there.

First off, the "Mormon Bible" is the King James Version of the Bible. Period. The text of one KJV is identical to the text of any other KJV, as far as I know.

As far as your questioning my honesty goes, I've got to say that's a pretty darned insulting way to start a debate. I have absolutely nothing in the world to gain by being dishonest about what Mormons believe. Furthermore, I think I've established a firm reputation for honesty and integrity on this forum.

I'm going to start a One-On-One Debate, discussing each of the six points you raised. Feel free to participate on it if you want. I'll provide you with the link once I've got it started.

 

[Katzpur]

Good works cannot save us,our actions to opportunities will affect our reward and our punishment.

I could not possibly agree more.

 

[Katzpur]

Here is our One-On-One Debate. Once you agree to the rules I've suggested, I'll begin to refute and/or clarify what the Latter-day Saints believe with respect to the first point of debate. (If you fail to respond, I guess my side will be the only one represented. ) Seriously, though, I am hoping that this discussion will actually help you better understand Mormon doctrine. You may never agree with it, but it would be nice if you actually came to a greater knowledge of the faith than you now have.

 

[abc123kid]

Ah, and would you consider those who do read these passages and accept Jesus at his word that works are necessary for salvation as Christians?

First rule of Bible interpretation is to let the Bible as a whole interpret the Bible, instead of individual text. I think that Jesus was here because our works could not save us. Isaiah 64:4 "our righteousness are as filthy rags." We would not need Jesus if we could save ourselves. Ephesians 2:9 "not by works so no one can boast". I believe Jesus here is saying what James said in his epistle "faith without works are dead". Same principle works does not save us. It does play apart which some people do not understand. With future reward in Heaven and the degree of punishment in hell.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Ah, and would you consider those who do read these passages and accept Jesus at his word that works are necessary for salvation as Christians?

First rule of Bible interpretation is to let the Bible as a whole interpret the Bible, instead of individual text. I think that Jesus was here because our works could not save us. Isaiah 64:4 "our righteousness are as filthy rags." We would not need Jesus if we could save ourselves. Ephesians 2:9 "not by works so no one can boast". I believe Jesus here is saying what James said in his epistle "faith without works are dead". Same principle works does not save us. It does play apart which some people do not understand. With future reward in Heaven and the degree of punishment in hell.

You did not answer my question.
Would you consider those who accept that salvation is by works as Christians?

 

[abc123kid]

You did not answer my question.
Would you consider those who accept that salvation is by works as Christians?[/quote

Do they believe that Jesus propitiation of sin?

 

[abc123kid]

The quote goes like this

"-Sunday 28- I spent the day in the council with the twelve apostles at the house of President Young, conversing with them upon a variety of subjects. Brother Joseph Fielding was present, having been absent four years on a mission to England. I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book."

 

[tumbleweed41]

You did not answer my question.
Would you consider those who accept that salvation is by works as Christians?

Do they believe that Jesus propitiation of sin?

You mean do they believe that Jesus died as a sin atonement? Yes.

 

[Shermana]

First rule of Bible interpretation is to let the Bible as a whole interpret the Bible, instead of individual text. I think that Jesus was here because our works could not save us. Isaiah 64:4 "our righteousness are as filthy rags." We would not need Jesus if we could save ourselves. Ephesians 2:9 "not by works so no one can boast". I believe Jesus here is saying what James said in his epistle "faith without works are dead". Same principle works does not save us. It does play apart which some people do not understand. With future reward in Heaven and the degree of punishment in hell.

If only I had a dollar for every time I saw the righteousness as filthy rags thing. It's as if they NEVER actually read Isaiah 64. Are you even aware of the context of Isaiah 64:6? (That's 6, not 4) Have you read Isaiah 66? It's amazing the way antinomians interpret this, it is clearly about the time that Israel is destroyed BECAUSE her righteousness is insufficient and the Israelites have committed sin. It has absolutely nothing to do with the idea that righteousness is always considered "dirty rags", it actually does in fact anger me to see how convoluted the interpretation of this verse gets by the mainstream Christian establishment, I can't explain the frustration in seeing them use that verse to justify their doctrine that works are not necessary even when Jesus plainly says that works are necessary, it's as if they have not read Isaiah 64 and think they can just make up whatever context they want of that verse. How they interpret it to mean that righteousness itself is as dirty rags, completely going against all the other things in the Bible saying about righteousness, is a true testimony to the total dishonesty and scriptural ignorance of antinomians.

When they use Isaiah 64:6, it's an immediate give-away that they shudder at the thought of actually reading the passages in question and go by cherry picked out-of-context versions. For example, the whole of 64:6 says:

All of us have become like one who is unclean,and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

What does it mean to "become like one who is unclean"? Exactly? Given the context of the preceding verses, it's obviously implying that the Israelites have sinned. Therefore, their "righteous acts" are mixed with dirty acts. Clearly, it says "Our sins sweep us away". I think there's a reason why this verse is so often cherry picked without the full verse.


And then what's truly great, is that while thinking Isaiah 64 implies works are not important (which is the exact opposite of the meaning of the passage), they then go on to completely ignore Isaiah 66 which clearly defines that Law obedience is necessary after the events of the Messianic age. Do they think that Isaiah 66 no longer counts?

Care to quote the entirety of Isaiah 64 or would you like to admit that this is a totally wrong interpretation of the passage?

Also, Ephesians is most likely not even by Paul to begin with and was probably written by Paulinists after the schism between Ebionites/Nazarenes and the Paulinists to support an Anti-Law view. As for what James meant by "Faith without works is dead", you should also see how he said that faith without works "Cannot save". Therefore, works are not just some "fruit of the saved" as numerous antinomians say, and often when asked what kind of "works" are exclusive to the saved Christian, they refuse, absolutely refuse to answer what kind of specific works are involved.

Personally I'd consider any religion preaching antinomianism as a "cult", I have in fact met many a Christian who thinks they can go on to do whatever they want because of this, and they can be much worse liars, thieves, fornicators, drunkards, etc than non-Christians probably because of this idea that the mainstream churches propagate that their "Righteousness is as filthy rags".

 

[abc123kid]

You mean do they believe that Jesus died as a sin atonement? Yes.

Then what is the need for their own works? Do they not believe Jesus was enough?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Then what is the need for their own works? Do they not believe Jesus was enough?

Are they, or are they not Christians?

 

[Quiddity]

Why someone would entertain such a question is beyond me.

Why does it even matter? Religions can be dangerous with or without the title of it being a cult.

If there is a perceived problem within any religions walls, then engage it there.

 

[Shermana]

Then what is the need for their own works? Do they not believe Jesus was enough?

So you believe one can be a murderer and rapist and fornicator and drunkard and thief and scoundrel in general and claim to believe in Jesus and they still go to heaven? Even Paul would disagree with you, try reading 1 Cor 6, clearly even Paul says that apparently works have something to do with your salvation. Then there's when Paul says "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling".

Like I said, I've noticed many Christians who have this mentality can be far worse scoundrels than non-Christians, I strongly believe the Theology that you don't need to do good works has a major significance in this. Thus, I advocate referring to all organizations that teach that you only need to believe in Jesus without actually trying to do good works as a "cult", and a dangerous cult. I'd guess that nearly all self-claimed Christians in jail have this mentality and very few have the works-mentality.

The anti-works theology is easily shot down with a few well placed verses in context and showing that their uses of verses to support their view are warped and completely ignoring what both Paul and Jesus actually taught. It's exactly what Jesus and Jude and even perhaps the author of Peter warned about.

 

[abc123kid]

Are they, or are they not Christians?

I am getting to the answer. If they believe that Jesus is atonement for sin.Why is their own works needed. They must think that Jesus' work was not sufficient and have to add to His work with theirs .If they do not believe that Jesus is enough to save them and they need to depend on their own works then I would say that they can not save themselves.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I am getting to the answer. If they believe that Jesus is atonement for sin.Why is their own works needed. They must think that Jesus' work was not sufficient and have to add to His work with theirs .If they do not believe that Jesus is enough to save them and they need to depend on their own works then I would say that they can not save themselves.

Christians?

 

[Shermana]

I am getting to the answer. If they believe that Jesus is atonement for sin.Why is their own works needed. They must think that Jesus' work was not sufficient and have to add to His work with theirs .If they do not believe that Jesus is enough to save them and they need to depend on their own works then I would say that they can not save themselves.

Even though Jesus clearly said "Work hard to enter the Kingdom".