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No more babies being delivered at NY hospital

Discussion in 'COVID-19' started by KenS, Sep 13, 2021.

  1. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    If you could address the point for once, that would be great.
     
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  2. Alienistic

    Alienistic Anti-conformity

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    If it’s assumed that medical staff aren’t tested, don’t know better not to come to work if having any symptoms, that they don’t practice any hygiene or wear masks, or gloves, that they are simply wiping their arses and touching all over patients without gloves, sneezing and coughing all over patients without wearing masks, than I suppose that would make sense what you said.
     
  3. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    That doesn't answer my question.
     
  4. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    No, it's not my opinion. We are observing republicans present their polices to the nation.

    Do you acknowledge the fact that Texas republicans just passed a law limiting abortion due to a "pro-life" stance?

    Do you acknowledge that numerous governors, namely Abbott and DeSantis, have opposed mask mandates, vaccine passports, and vaccination mandates by private companies, all of which could help save lives if allowed?
     
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  5. Alienistic

    Alienistic Anti-conformity

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    Do the math yourself, and even without this math, the answer would be sensible, and logical, unanimous.

    Figure out how many people have been born, treated for “any” medical condition in the States for example during the covid era without a vaccine (keeping in mind every medical professional member was not vaccinated.) Compare these to amount of deaths.

    Then, even with a vaccine during the covid era.... do the same things. Compare to the amount of deaths during this time frame and estimated percentage of those not vaccinated in the medical profession. Remove this percentage of people from the equation in ratio with deaths, people treated or born.

    While keeping in mind what I said above without the hysteria, and medical staff being regular tested for covid and having great precautionary measures in place, keeping in mind that vaccinated patients and medical professionals also can spread and kill people.
     
  6. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
    Staff Member Premium Member

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    **MOVED TO COVID-19**
     
  7. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    I don't see an answer.
     
  8. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    This doesn't answer the question either.

    Having unvaccinated medical staff working out of a hospital is a terrible idea, if you're concerned about maintaining the health and safety of the staff in said hospital, as well as it's patients.
    Pre-pandemic, that would not be a controversial statement. It's only controversial now because the pandemic and the vaccine have become so heavily politicized and divisive.

    There are continuing outbreaks in hospitals all the time, without adding COVID on top of it. When my grandfather was in the hospital about 5 years ago, there was a MRSA outbreak. Nursing staff, doctors, janitors, etc. all had to wear fully PPE gear at all times when dealing with patients suffering from MRSA. Cleaning protocols were enhanced. Visitors were not allowed in the hospital. My grandfather still ended up contracting MRSA, even with all enhanced safety protocols in place.

    Five years before that when my father was in the hospital, there was an H1N1 outbreak. Same deal as above, all medical personnel suited up, cleaning protocols were increased, etc. I was not allowed to visit my father in that hospital for 2 months. He was lucky enough not to catch H1N1.


    So this is a fairly regular occurrence in hospitals. And that's without vaccinations being available for those illnesses. In the case of COVID, we actually have a vaccine available. So we have yet another level of protection available. I submit that it would be irresponsible for a hospital to have working staff that do not follow the health and safety protocols as well as all other available safety protocols at their disposal, so as to ensure maximum safety for all staff and all patients.

    And on top of that, nurses are already required to have all other common vaccines such as MMR, tetanus and Hepatitis B. This isn't some new thing we're talking about here.
     
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  9. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    Since I'm not allowed to speak of the problems the vaccine can cause, I can't answer.
    Except to say that those mandates are not pro life IMO.
     
  10. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    I don't either. Hence the reason I asked you to address the point.
     
  11. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    They actually help to save lives.
    So, how are they not pro-life, in your opinion?
     
    #391 SkepticThinker, Sep 15, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
  12. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Did you get in trouble for spreading right wing disinformation?


    So your opinion is that mandating that customers on cruise ships be vaccinated and tested for Covid is not PRO life?

    Explain. And make sure you explain how the alternative WOULD be pro life.
     
  13. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    You seem more upset over lost businesses than lost lives.

    Hospitals are overwhelmed in areas where citizens are not getting vaccinated and ignoring expert advice for public health. The data shows this is mostly conservatives refusing to vaccinate.

    You can do the homework and get back to us. Are you suggesting that you care about people, and that unnecessary deaths are bad?

    Like spreading disinformation that is causing severe consequences on public health?
     
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  14. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    And yet another post where you just won't answer the question.
    We're literally talking about people literally losing their lives to an illness. Those are lives lost that at this point in time, are preventable, and could have been saved. But you're not into that, for some reason. Hence my question about your supposed "pro-life" stance that you didn't answer.

    Do you have a number? Did people drop dead when their businesses closed?

    This is an odd point for you to attempt to make. Guess what? They couldn't get into the hospitals because they were already filled with COVID patients. That's pre-vaccine. Hence the need for lockdowns, which, as you should remember, were put in place to reduce the tremendous strain that was being placed on hospitals.

    Now that we've got a vaccine, those hospitals are filled up with the unvaccinated, who also happen to be the same people who refuse to wear masks and social distance, thus perpetuating this pandemic indefinitely. These are the people holding us back from fully opening up the economy.

    The anti-vax and anti-masker crowd are the ones holding us all back at this point in time. Sorry, but they don't get to complain about the economy collapsing at this point, that is, until they take on their responsibility to society to do the right thing that all the rest of us have managed to do.


    I don't know, have you got a number?

    Countries like mine, that care about such people, put measures into place where people could access the funds and resources they needed to sustain themselves throughout the pandemic. I myself tapped into some of these as my work hours were greatly reduced for about a year.



    Because it's BS.
     
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  15. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    People are people. That fact is inescapable. We aren't special, unique snowflakes. We are homo sapiens with vastly more similarities than differences.
     
  16. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Antivax is a descriptive term, not a moral judgment. Before COVID, the term was used mainly to describe parents that thought that vaccines cause autism, and didn't want their children vaccinated for measles, for example. Today, the term mostly is used to refer to any person who is able to take a coronavirus vaccine, but won't.

    What term would you prefer to describe the willfully unvaccinated, and what makes it more appropriate and more ethical for a physician? Vaccine hesitant? Willfully unvaccinated?

    I don't think you understand how medicine works. Physicians are obligated to know and to adhere to the current standard of care. They are not to go off the reservation. They are not permitted to go rogue. And that is for your protection. I've mentioned that I am a retired physician. I assure you that I would not go against the medical standard of care for vaccination, and that is a good thing. There is nothing that I would advise you of that is in conflict with professional standards.

    The CDC recommends that anybody for whom the vaccine is not medically contraindicated and who is otherwise eligible for a vaccine should have one. If I were your doctor, I would know the contraindications and if they applied to you. I could give you an answer over the phone after reviewing your medical history. If you were new to my practice, I wouldn't advise you until I had done a screening physical including diagnostics. If no contraindications were uncovered, I would advise you get vaccinated. And I could have told you before I met you that if your exam didn't indicate a contraindication, I would be recommending you take the vaccine.

    You don't seem to understand what an expert is. Anybody qualified to give medical advice about vaccination will give you the advice I suggested. Anybody who contradicts the professional standard of care has gone rogue and needs to have his license disciplined by the local medical board that issued the license.

    Let me share an anecdote with you. I was doing a disability evaluation for the state when I was asked to see a 30-something year old mother with crippling, deforming, rheumatoid arthritis - a problem for which we had several good DMARD medications that prevent deformity, meds that I had been prescribing and even administering for years to my patients (Remicade is given IV in the office).

    But her doctor never prescribed those drugs or referred her to a rheumatologist, and now her hands were useless. I reported him to the medical board, deeply offended that this rogue doctor had harmed this woman. You don't want a physician like that. If you run into a physician who just doesn't trust the vaccine and doesn't want to recommend it or give it people qualified to take it, then you have a rogue doctor and need to find another one.

    Of course, my guess is that that would be what you were looking for - anybody with medical credentials to sanction your choice. You haven't mentioned seeing your doctor to ask about the vaccine for you. I understand that to mean that either you never saw one, since you never mentioned your doctor advising against vaccination.

    Again, you have a wrong notion about how these things work. Your doctor will not be contraindicating professional standards unless your doctor doesn't know them (incompetent) or has gone rogue. Neither the CDC nor the FDA will tell you whether to take Advil or aspirin. When I recommended such drugs, it was never in defiance of any regulatory agency's recommendations.

    I'll bet you know. I think that her purpose is to justify her choice to defy medical guidance. I believe that she is telling us that she intends to take advice from nobody, and that that is smart, because only one person is qualified to advise her. As I noted, there is no evidence that she sought or obeyed any such advice. So, dismiss all recommendations not from her doctor, and then either don't ask that person or refuse the recommendation. I'm pretty sure that if she had seen a doc that told that vaccination wasn't right, we'd know about it.

    The bottom line is that some people just don't want a vaccine for no good reason that they can give, but many feel a need to justify their choice. They're still doing research, or still watching what happens to people who take the vaccine, or won't be a guinea pig for an experimental treatment, or in this case, not willing to defer to expert guidance and feeling a need to make it seem reasonable.

    Thanks for your interest, but your advice is terrible. Why would I want to live under a dictator? Bush understood this: "If this were a dictatorship it would be a heck of a lot easier... as long as I'm the dictator.” Mel Brooks understood as well: "It's good to be the King." But not me. I don't want the grief or to spend my time that way. Nor to leave this life.

    What I said to somebody who suggested that stick methods weren't the solution to the present problem, probably in a veiled plea to stop chastising the unvaccinated (some are actually claiming that that is keeping them from getting vaccinated in the hope that people will be fooled into thinking that if they are treated more to their liking, that that would affect their decision), is that there is no solution short of mandatory vaccination. I also said that I support that idea, although I don't think it's constitutionally possible to hold people down against their will and inject them, so the next best thing is to quarantine them and prevent them from clogging hospitals and harming their vaccinated neighbors who need other kinds of care. After that, mandates that prevent people from holding certain jobs or attending assorted populated venues.

    You might say that that is ridiculous, that I need to care about what they want and give them the space they need. Disagree. I really don't care what they want any more, and I don't need to, either. I only need obey the law. I don't take any of them seriously, and I am not interested in their reasons any longer. They are simply wrong, and I resent that they are allowed to harm others.

    But don't take it personally. There are plenty of types of people that I just don't care what they think or want. Do you think the election was stolen? I don't care, and your opinion is valueless. Do you think climate change is a hoax? You can stop talking right there. You have nothing to say to me on the subjects, and I just don't care what you believe or why. You think Trump was a good president. Stifle, Edith. Talk to the hand.

    Nobody is punishing you. If you're referring to why refusing an indicated vaccine should cost you, then it is because you are not welcome in some job or some public venue unvaccinated. Choices have consequences, some undesirable, but that doesn't make those consequences punishments like fines and jail sentences.
     
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  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    Antivax is used with a political negative connotation. The US gov tries to counter it with "vaccine hesitancy" but the attitude behind it is the same. Just politically correct.
     
  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    Yes. Since no one is special, how do you know?
     
  19. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Because we are more alike than different, especially when it comes to things like deadly contagions. Everyone is susceptible to covid, and by default there are no "no need to worry" or "worry less about it" groups.
    And, ultimately, even if it's ultra minimal (such as you live in a cave and very rarey interact with others) we all have contact with other people and that does mean at risk for covid, especially given how contagious it is.
     
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  20. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Opposing vaccinations by spreading disinformation is a negative thing.
     
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