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No more babies being delivered at NY hospital

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
The fallacy is rarity excludes probability. For example, it's rare that I will catch lung cancer because (say) 90% who catch it has smoked. Rarity doesn't mean certainty. I could be the unlucky 10%. So, rarity is a strong defense just don't use it to exclude probability I may get cancer.

It's the argument that's a fallacy. The topic is irrelevant.
Rarity is not arguing the absolute fact that it will automatically happen. So I fail to see the issue. Like you will more likely die in a car accident than dying of a vaccination complication. That’s based on current stats
Do you also abstain from all activities that have less likelihood of you dying from a car accident? Like crossing the road or I dunno going to the gym or something?
If not than objectively speaking, your concerns are clearly not absolute. Just the messenger my friend, please don’t shoot messenger. Either be concrete about this or be subject to scrutiny. That’s the reality of the situation
What can I tell ya?
 
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SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
@Shadow Wolf


CDC expert isn't my doctor. That's my point.
Lmao that’s like saying “my doctor doesn’t consult medical science.”
Like mate, your GP basically reports to the CDC. As does mine (granted it’s the relevant equivalent authority in my country, which is oddly more stringent but still. )
You might as well say that your doctor doesn’t subscribe to the germ theory. Come on mate. I’m not even American and even I know the CDC supersedes GPs just by default
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Because all you've ever said is you don't get out much and live where it'sless densely populated. That doesn't make you so different that the stuff doesn't apply. Even those places and people are not escaping covid.

Making it personal doesn't exclude my point.

How do you know the world population to make fact statements?

It's easier to make statements in your local area but not if you're hundreds of thousands miles away from people.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Rarity is not arguing the absolute fact that it will automatically happen. So I fail to see the issue. Like you will more likely die in a car accident than dying of a vaccination complication. That’s based on current stats
Do you also abstain from all activities that have less likelihood of you dying from a car accident? Like crossing the road or I dunno going to the gym or something?
If not than objectively speaking, your concerns are clearly not absolute. Just the messenger my friend, please don’t shoot messenger. Either be concrete about this or be subject to scrutiny. That’s the reality of the situation
What can I tell ya?

Your speaking as if I said vaccines do more harm than getting hit by a car. I said no such thing.

I said rarity doesn't mean it won't happen.

The fallacy is just because it's rare you won't get sick from the virus cause you're vaccinated (I didn't say sick from the vaccine), doesn't mean you won't catch it no matter how rare the chances are.

It's using rarity to prove something will happen.

"Either be concrete about this or be subject to scrutiny. That’s the reality of the situation."

There's no either/or on this. Opinions are a dime a dozen.

My point to @F1fan:

So, rarity is a strong defense just don't use it to exclude probability I may get cancer.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Lmao that’s like saying “my doctor doesn’t consult medical science.”
Like mate, your GP basically reports to the CDC. As does mine (granted it’s the relevant equivalent authority in my country, which is oddly more stringent but still. )
You might as well say that your doctor doesn’t subscribe to the germ theory. Come on mate. I’m not even American and even I know the CDC supersedes GPs just by default


Read the sentence again.

CDC isn't my doctor. It says nothing about him not consulting medical advice from CDC.

The rest I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

All I'm saying to Shadow is I'd get my facts from my doctor. He has the expertise and he knows me personally. CDC can give me a lot of info.

But If
I were concerned about the vaccine, I'd go to my doctor not CDC.

Wouldn't you?
 
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SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Read the sentence again.

CDC isn't my doctor. It says nothing about him not consulting medical advice from CDC.

The rest I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

All I'm saying to Shadow is I'd get my facts from my doctor. He has the expertise and he knows me personally. CDC can give me a lot of info.

But
If I were concerned about the vaccine, I'd go to my doctor not CDC.

Wouldn't you?
But isn’t the CDC not the consulting office of medical procedures in the US? (You know what I mean.)
If my pharmacists went against the guidelines implemented in my country by my country’s overall guidelines, they would be a veritable laughing stock since they are rejecting established medical science. Unless that’s not how your medical establishments work in the US? What are your overall establishment guidelines for health and safety? I was under the impression that it was conducted by establishments such as the CDC and FDA. Are they not considered authorities in the US?
Please rectify my errors if I have presented any. But just know that I’m a click away from verifying the roles such establishments have in your country all the same
 
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SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Your speaking as if I said vaccines do more harm than getting hit by a car. I said no such thing.

I said rarity doesn't mean it won't happen.

The fallacy is just because it's rare you won't get sick from the virus cause you're vaccinated (I didn't say sick from the vaccine), doesn't mean you won't catch it no matter how rare the chances are.

It's using rarity to prove something will happen.

"Either be concrete about this or be subject to scrutiny. That’s the reality of the situation."

There's no either/or on this. Opinions are a dime a dozen.

My point to @F1fan:

So, rarity is a strong defense just don't use it to exclude probability I may get cancer.
Rarity speaks to how often an occurrence supposedly occurs. If I’m not mistaken, you are less likely to be hit by a car than to suffer complications from a vaccine, any vaccine. Including the current COVID vaccine. Unless you are arguing that its far more likely to be hit by a car than to suffer ill effects of the current vaccines? If not then I fail to see why you would argue a person should abstain from the current available vaccines. Unless you think it more likely that a person dies from them than a freak accident, as the current data suggests?
I’m only taking into account the freak accidents and rarity percentages you are suggesting I do
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Rarity speaks to how often an occurrence supposedly occurs. If I’m not mistaken, you are less likely to be hit by a car than to suffer complications from a vaccine, any vaccine. Including the current COVID vaccine. Unless you are arguing that its far more likely to be hit by a car than to suffer ill effects of the current vaccines? If not then I fail to see why you would argue a person should abstain from the current available vaccines. Unless you think it more likely that a person dies from them than a freak accident, as the current data suggests?

I’m only taking into account the freak accidents and rarity percentages you are suggesting I do

Here's my point to F1fan:

An expert can tell by tests but layman do not have that. The only thing we have is unvaccinated is more likely to catch the virus (data or not) than vax but that's a fallacy. Rarity I doesnt exclude possibility.

I don't know where you're getting this from. I said: Your speaking as if I said vaccines do more harm than getting hit by a car. I said no such thing.

You're arguing something I never brought up.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Here's my point to F1fan:

An expert can tell by tests but layman do not have that. The only thing we have is unvaccinated is more likely to catch the virus (data or not) than vax but that's a fallacy. Rarity I doesnt exclude possibility.

I don't know where you're getting this from. I said: Your speaking as if I said vaccines do more harm than getting hit by a car. I said no such thing.

You're arguing something I never brought up.
So trust the expert. Or is your hubris to a point where you can’t? Isn’t arrogance a sin?
The expert tells me to get a vaccine. Guess who I listen to? Jesus Christ bro. Normally I couldn’t care less. You’re making me care and I don’t like it. What is the scientific consensus? Whatever it is, follow it. Because at this point if you don’t plan to follow consensus like every single person interested in the science, you might as well throw your hat in with the flat earthers
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
So trust the expert. Or is your hubris to a point where you can’t? Isn’t arrogance a sin?
The expert tells me to get a vaccine. Guess who I listen to? Jesus Christ bro. Normally I couldn’t care less. You’re making me care and I don’t like it
Sorry I’m a bit drunk. Just listen to expert advice ffs. I don’t like those guys either. But I don’t think myself as educated just because I can Google for crying out loud

1. My comments originally were not addressed to you.

2. That's Good the experts tell you to get the vaccine. I never said it was not.
I just said go to your own doctor if you want something more "specific" than WHO or CDC.

3. How am I making you care? I can't "make" you do anything.
You guys keep making these things into debates since you got strong feelings behind it. I just don't have that sentiment. I can careless if you guys vaccinate or not.

4. Get sober. I just woke up and waiting for my exercise video to download then go for a run.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
1. My comments originally were not addressed to you.

2. That's Good the experts tell you to get the vaccine. I never said it was not.
I just said go to your own doctor if you want something more "specific" than WHO or CDC.

3. How am I making you care? I can't "make" you do anything.
You guys keep making these things into debates since you got strong feelings behind it. I just don't have that sentiment. I can careless if you guys vaccinate or not.

4. Get sober. I just woke up and waiting for my exercise video to download then go for a run.
1 I can appreciate that
2 I sincerely don’t know how it works in the US. We just go to our GP and get half our money back. I hear of US doctor visits and I am horrified
3 everyone makes me care. I have empathy. If I hear of a US family having to remortgage their house because a family member had a heart attack I care. Because I’m human
4 Bruh, I’m Aussie. If you want me to be sober to participate here, I may never be able to participate ever again ;)
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
But isn’t the CDC not the consulting office of medical procedures in the US? (You know what I mean.)
If my pharmacists went against the guidelines implemented in my country by my country’s overall guidelines, they would be a veritable laughing stock since they are rejecting established medical science. Unless that’s not how your medical establishments work in the US? What are your overall establishment guidelines for health and safety? I was under the impression that it was conducted by establishments such as the CDC and FDA. Are they not considered authorities in the US?
Please rectify my errors if I have presented any. But just know that I’m a click away from verifying the roles such establishments have in your country all the same

I never said you were wrong.

Why are you debating as if I'm trying to rebut what you're saying?
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I never said you were wrong.

Why are you debating as if I'm trying to rebut what you're saying?
I dunno. Current events just have me on edge maybe. Not to mention having to beat off the whole “both sides of the argument are legit” thing I’m seeing online at the moment. Which is wholly untrue. As far as I’m aware, the current data suggests that unvaccinated peeps are more dangerous in this current climate, as far as infection rates are concerned. That’s just what I’ve gathered, mind you
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
know the single incident you are referring to. It was a group of Democrats talking before a press conference. Of course as we know Democrats have an excellent track record for using safety measures so have been a safer group to hang our with versus republicans who were dropping like flies at that time. It was a bad optic, but only because there have been so many misinformed citizens making Covid a political issue. That you even bring this up is political.

Now contrast this with the policy hypocrisy of republicans. One one hand they assert they are pro life because they are prohibiting women from getting legal abortions after six weeks. Yet they also oppose mask mandates and vaccinations which will certainly save lives. Their policies about the pandemic have actually cost lives to be lost. They can't have it both ways.

So you should think through your examples better before you play Hypocrite Jeopardy.
Oh it's only a single incident? Not. It's your opinion only that republican policies have caused losses, btw.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
As far as I’m aware, the current data suggests that unvaccinated peeps are more dangerous in this current climate, as far as infection rates are concerned. That’s just what I’ve gathered, mind you

This is the consensus in the US and I believe it's media and government influenced.

I've never heard a group of people in my lifetime that condems another group based solely on vaccination. Not even courts would do that without hard core evidence not just textbook data.

It's a silly argument and I don't think people will get it until one day they mandate all unvax to stay at their homes or hold a vax card. US nearly half the population is unvaxed and we do not know why.

Then realize they're still waiting for herd immunity and segregating unvax isn't the solution.

Maybe people will get it when the Delta gets worse and they realize only so many boosters can be given before they develop another plan.

I can't remember where but I watched a video unfortunately I can't post that said people would be more trusting of the US government if they just said "I don't know."

They are human too.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I don’t think it is that easy. The risks vs rewards have to weighed. Hospitals are already short staffed. I doubt there is a line of qualified nurses and all other roles in the medical field desperately waiting in line to enter themselves into a hostile pandemic, whether vaccinated or unvaccinated.
It is that easy. At least, it has been until now, since this new vaccine has become completely politicized.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
The “oh well” would be in relation to many patients unable to be treated, getting inadequate treatment, or lacking the treatment required with very heightened short staffs if many medical professionals overall walk away from the field. The ramifications will only have effects on the ill or childbirths, etc.

Other than that, which is a very real and serious consequence... agreed that they should follow the rules put in place for them if they wish to stay in that field.
And you think the situation would be improved by having unvaccinated nursing staff spreading the virus around even more, which causes increases in cases, hospitalizations and deaths?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
And you think the situation would be improved by having unvaccinated nursing staff spreading the virus around even more, which causes increases in cases, hospitalizations and deaths?
So, if this was already the case, there were already unvaccinated nurses, where's this " even more" bit coming from?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The lack of respect here for all of the unvaccinated medical staff who have risked and given their lives in helping hundreds of millions of people throughout a hostile and stressful situation is mind blowing... over a vaccine mandate. When they’ve been doing this way before a vaccine even existed and have been while one has existed.

It truly is sad that these medical employees are being called selfish, destructive to society, should have no access to medical care themselves, should be not considered human or taken seriously in anything, to go with all of the other negative things everyone here has said about them.
This rings a bit hollow coming from an anti-vaxxer this week, when my news feed is full of stories about anti-vaxxers harassing staff and patients at hospitals:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-hospital-protests-canada-1.6173437
 
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