No more babies being delivered at NY hospital

[It Aint Necessarily So]

And there it is folks! The end goal, forced compliance!

I would force you to take the vaccine, yes, but if unable to do that, I would give you a way out if you felt that strongly about it. You can be segregated from society in detention with the other unvaxxed. I think I could find a couple of nurses to work the dispensary.

I think I already explained why. I am 100% intolerant of your right to refuse the vaccine, clog up hospitals, leave orphans, and generate huge medical bills that you can't pay or won't live long enough to pay. I'm not willing to compromise with such people. Of course, I'm not the one calling the shots (pun intended).

I can't emphasize enough that I don't care what those people think. They think poorly, like the tantruming infant in the doctor's office there for his vaccinations who, if he could speak, would probably tell us he's still doing the research and waiting on the FDA, as if there were any valid conclusion possible apart from take the vaccine, and unlike the infant, they are a threat to the rest of us.

Here's how I view the antivaxxers claiming that the rest of us want to oppress them. I simply don't take them seriously. "My rights! My rights! See the system oppress of my rights!"

"Put this drug into your body or lose your income! "

Nobody's telling them to lose their income, just to earn one somewhere else. Or not if you'd rather stay home.

It seems impossible for many to understand that we do not give these people permission to live any way they like among us. They see it as an affront that others don't want unvaccinated nurses in the hospital, as if what they wanted but nothing else matters. Everything to allow the irrational nurse to go on being irrational, screw everybody else. How many times have I commented on this phenomenon already? People that don't care at all about the fears of others or what they want perplexed and indignant that others won't let them have what they want.

This is my question here, is it better to lose however many medical professional staff country-wide over mandates?

Better than letting them work unvaccinated? Yes. And if there is a health care professional shortage, I say move and train vaccinated nurses from the COVID wars to places that they are needed more, which is just about anywhere in the hospital where other kinds of patients would be such as maternity patients. Nurses could get up to speed in a short time under the auspices of experienced maternity (for example) nurses, who check cervical dilation, count the timing of contractions, watch for bleeding (threatened abortion), blood pressure problems (eclampsia) or fevers (sepsis), how to assist in deliveries, do an APGAR assessment. Inexperienced staff don't even need to know how to deal with such problems right away - just to be able to recognize them. I know, because I did a two week rotation in obstetrics in medical school, and with zero experience, helped quite a bit.

How about an amazing anecdote? I was on duty one night for the delivery of a fetus that had already died in the womb. The dad was also present. I was the only one there that didn't know that the baby would be stillborn. So I'm making the usual comforting small talk about how most deliveries are a joyous experience, people looking at me funny. Are you familiar with the tongs used to deliver babies? The fetus's head was too large t deliver vaginally had it been healthy, but you don't do a C-section in such a circumstance. What they do is gruesome: the skull is crushed so that it can pass through the cervix and birth canal. I didn't know that the doc was deliberately crushing this skull, but I could see him using unusual force and could hear the sound of breaking bone. I was horrified at this doctor's ham-handedness.

Then the fetus appeared, head crushed, blue, and smelling like decomposition. I still thought that this was a live birth, and began doing the APGAR assessment - breathing, heart rate, reflexes, muscle tone, and skin color (the natural blueness pinks up right way with a breath or two). Of course, this was completely inappropriate considering the circumstances, and again grounds for unsettling looks from the staff. "What are you doing?" they asked me. Worst day of medical school, and a crappy thing to do to a young medical student.

But the point is, with experienced supervision, anybody can assist with this work.

 

[Wildswanderer]

would force you to take the vaccine, yes, but if unable to do that, I would give you a way out if you felt that strongly about it. You can be segregated from society in detention with the other unvaxxed. I think I could find a couple of nurses to work the dispensary.

I think I already explained why. I am 100% intolerant of your right to refuse the vaccine, clog up hospitals, leave orphans, and generate huge medical bills that you can't pay or won't live long enough to pay. I'm not willing to compromise with such people. Of course, I'm not the one calling the shots (pun intended).

I can't emphasize enough that I don't care what those people think. They think poorly, like the tantruming infant in the doctor's office there for his vaccinations who, if he could speak, would probably tell us he's still doing the research and waiting on the FDA, as if there were any valid conclusion possible apart from take the vaccine, and unlike the infant, they are a threat to the rest of us.

Here's how I view the antivaxxers claiming that the rest of us want to oppress them. I simply don't take them seriously. "My rights! My rights! See the system oppress of my rights!"

I suggest you move to a country with a dictatorship...you'll be happier there.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Assuming they aren't advised to not get the vaccine for medical reasons, what is their basis for not getting a vaccination while millions are?

Other than what's already said-adverse side effects, still testing (on children now), to lack of trust (i.e. would you take meds from a doctor you don't trust), not enough predictive information to determine long term consequences to changing solutions, and so forth.

Some of them are good reasons. Others are not. Just because one disagrees with the decision doesn't mean their logic of coming to that conclusions are unfounded. Maybe vaccinated people looked at the same exact thing and felt its worth to take the chance.

But it doesn't matter if 99% if people say they did the right thing versus 1% people say they did the right thing. It's not about numbers but what's best for people's health-for themselves and for others. People have a right to be skeptical. I

How so?

A vaccinated person can choose vaccination because of fear. People can be vaccinated because their peers are... can you imagine if one person on RF got their first dose and decided not to get their second? Of course people can be vaccinated because that's what they were told. Experts say wear two masks and they go to wear two masks. Out of town here the local guidelines was to wear masks when outside-people do it.

CDC says you can get droplets in your eyes. People wear shields even when they're not around people for the shields to have any effect: COVID-19 and Your Health

"Having these small droplets and particles that contain virus land on the eyes, nose, or mouth, especially through splashes and sprays like a cough or sneeze."

But that's just my views.
Why would it matter if vaccinated where misled if at the end they did the right thing?

So you are paranoid? Your line of thinking here strikes me as how conspiracy theorists end up believing nonsense.

At some point we need to be rational people who can function in society. We have to trust experts and professionals to do their jobs just as we trust other drivers not to run red lights. Being hyper-critical will leave a person dysfunctional eventually, and perhaps a threat to others and the self. How many have questioned vaccines, been infected, and then regretted their skepticism as they died? There have been patients pleading for the vaccine in the hospital and don't realize it was too late. Rational people make risk assessments realistically. They don't keep confusing themselves with questions they can't answer.

We need to have some critical thinking

Not. So much to through vaccines out the door...

but just enough to where we don't jump at every other vaccine, booster, and solution without saying "hey, does this make sense."

There is only so much a layman can do, of course. It's hard to be critical when media, social media, and other are censoring information that can be at another's advantage. But all in all the purpose is the same-get people vaccinated. I just think it would take longer than people think (take longer does not mean ineffective).

 

[F1fan]

Seriously.

I don't think lockdowns are effective. Whoever has the virus is just making people in their immediate environment sick. When the lockdowns let up, they infect other people.

Yet lockdowns DID work extremely well as the data shows. They just didn't have a permanent effect. They bought us time. So your belief is wrong.

Healthcare expert would be one's personal doctor.

Only if the doctor accepts the recommendations of experts in public health and advises you according to multiple levels of expertise. You have no authority to dispute what experts say, but you can avoid their advice and cause some potentially dire and deadly consequences.

Thankfully, some people don't consider vaccines any different than taking medications when assessing what's best for them and others. Singling out COVID vaccines is highly political. In any other situation, there'd be more thought into what a person takes and why.

The right is making it political.

It should be: talk to your doctor first before you get vaccinated.

All medications, vaccines, and so forth have that--if you're concerned talk to your doctor first.

Ask a doctor, don't read what could be crap on the internet.

Just don't take what they say for granted. I'm speaking of those like me who have health conditions, which I assume in one way or another is the majority. However, if you're relatively healthy, then listening to the experts without going to your expert wouldn't harm anyone. Just saying don't take this for granted. I always question the experts. I would not be alive if I had not.

If you have health conditions then ask a doctor. If you have none then the vaccines are safe. It's not just experts saying, it's in the data. The vaccines are safe and effective. Those denying the facts are creating a threat.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don’t think it is that easy. The risks vs rewards have to weighed. Hospitals are already short staffed. I doubt there is a line of qualified nurses and all other roles in the medical field desperately waiting in line to enter themselves into a hostile pandemic, whether vaccinated or unvaccinated.

Oh well. Medical workers already have to get other vaccinations because of the types of people we may work with. This includes the immunocompromised. When you work in healthcare you have to be ready to make personal sacrifices. Lost evenings, being on call 24/7, stress, being exposed to contagious diseases, and having to get vaccinated. If you can't do it then don't even waste you time getting degree in the field. You're not a good fit.

 

[F1fan]

I suggest you move to a country with a dictatorship...you'll be happier there.

Right, trump was voted out. Now we have democracy again that is responsible TO the people.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It should be: talk to your doctor first before you get vaccinated.

Here's how my appointment went:
Dr - I highly recommend you get the covid vaccine once you're eligible.
Me - Already got it, both doses. *show her my card*
Dr - Great!

 

[Alienistic]

Oh well. Medical workers already have to get other vaccinations because of the types of people we may work with. This includes the immunocompromised. When you work in healthcare you have to be ready to make personal sacrifices. Lost evenings, being on call 24/7, stress, being exposed to contagious diseases, and having to get vaccinated. If you can't do it then don't even waste you time getting degree in the field. You're not a good fit.

The “oh well” would be in relation to many patients unable to be treated, getting inadequate treatment, or lacking the treatment required with very heightened short staffs if many medical professionals overall walk away from the field. The ramifications will only have effects on the ill or childbirths, etc.

Other than that, which is a very real and serious consequence... agreed that they should follow the rules put in place for them if they wish to stay in that field.

 

[Alienistic]

The “oh well” would be in relation to many patients unable to be treated, getting inadequate treatment, or lacking the treatment required with very heightened short staffs if many medical professionals overall walk away from the field. The ramifications will only have effects on the ill or childbirths, etc.

Other than that, which is a very real and serious consequence... agreed that they should follow the rules put in place for them if they wish to stay in that field.

And a temporary restraining order on the mandate was recently announced in NY due to these reasons.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Right, trump was voted out. Now we have democracy again that is responsible TO the people.

We have a lot of hypocrites. Like all the democrats talking without masks on until the camera show up. We do have some republicans who really care and have gotten people out of Afghanistan in spite of the administration.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The “oh well” would be in relation to many patients unable to be treated, getting inadequate treatment, or lacking the treatment required with very heightened short staffs if many medical professionals overall walk away from the field. The ramifications will only have effects on the ill or childbirths, etc.

Other than that, which is a very real and serious consequence... agreed that they should follow the rules put in place for them if they wish to stay in that field.

Patients are already not getting treatment because of the unvaccinated flooding hospitals and making it so resources and staff are stretched thin.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yet lockdowns DID work extremely well as the data shows. They just didn't have a permanent effect. They bought us time. So your belief is wrong.

If they worked, it wouldn't be temporary. Hence why we upgraded to masks and vaccines and boosters.

Only if the doctor accepts the recommendations of experts in public health and advises you according to multiple levels of expertise. You have no authority to dispute what experts say, but you can avoid their advice and cause some potentially dire and deadly consequences.

Your doctor would tell you what's appropriate for you based on what he learned. You can trust what your doctor says, get a second opinion, and/or evaluate for yourself if that's what you need abet it not be something serious. The patients usually have some say in their healthcare choices. No doctor (and expert for that matter) would put their knowledge ahead of their patient's. That's basic medical ethics.

Speak of the arguments not me. I've been in hospitals a good lot of my life and second opinions and criticisms led me to "not be dead."

The right is making it political.

Both sides. "Antivax" for example, isn't something a doctor would say nor is it medically ethical to judge the morals of another person's healthcare decisions. Believe me. It's both.

Ask a doctor, don't read what could be crap on the internet.

Ask "your" doctor. Scientist and experts say Advil works fine. Your doctor says take Asprin. Who will you listen to?

If you have health conditions then ask a doctor. If you have none then the vaccines are safe. It's not just experts saying, it's in the data. The vaccines are safe and effective. Those denying the facts are creating a threat.

I never said they were not effective. You (guys) can repeat "vaccines are safe" till the cows come home but I never disagreed.

My point is don't take anything for granted.

I also said that relatively healthy people don't need to ask their doctors but its a good idea (as experts say) if they are concern ask their doctor before jumping to take the vaccine (med, whatever).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here's how my appointment went:
Dr - I highly recommend you get the covid vaccine once you're eligible.
Me - Already got it, both doses. *show her my card*
Dr - Great!

Okay. For me it's more.

Me: I'm thinking of getting vaccine X

Dr. Let's look over the meds you take

Me: well, I take med Y. What do you think?

D. I haven't heard any reaction before, But since you're concerned let's do it this way. If you take the first dose let me know if you have side effects so we know whether it's in YOUR best interest to take the next.

M. Cool. Doc. (I like being a part of my own healthcare decisions)

Healthy people wouldn't have that deep of a convo but any doctor that doesnt talk with you about it (putting their politics and morals aside) isn't one I would see.

Regardless if it's a vaccine, med, or treatment.

Pandemic shouldn't make doctors forgo their ethics and relationship with patients who trust them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

And hope to gosh no doctor would flip to the CDC website for authoritative data of giving patients the vaccine, meds, etc despite his own expertise and practice that may be opposite "based on" his patients needs not the experts.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And hope to gosh no doctor would flip to the CDC website for authoritative data of giving patients the vaccine, meds, etc despite his own expertise and practice that may be opposite "based on" his patients needs not the experts.

Doctors have to keep up with current info, and they don't know everything. The CDC is a top authority so they should check it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Okay. For me it's more.

Me: I'm thinking of getting vaccine X

Dr. Let's look over the meds you take

Me: well, I take med Y. What do you think?

D. I haven't heard any reaction before, But since you're concerned let's do it this way. If you take the first dose let me know if you have side effects so we know whether it's in YOUR best interest to take the next.

M. Cool. Doc. (I like being a part of my own healthcare decisions)

Healthy people wouldn't have that deep of a convo but any doctor that doesnt talk with you about it (putting their politics and morals aside) isn't one I would see.

Regardless if it's a vaccine, med, or treatment.

Pandemic shouldn't make doctors forgo their ethics and relationship with patients who trust them.

Amd that's not telling you to refrain. It's taking a step to address your concerns. That's normal.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Doctors have to keep up with current info, and they don't know everything. The CDC is a top authority so they should check it.

And. They have to align it with a. their own experiences b. their expertise, and c. the patient story, symptoms, and history.

If the doctor says the vaccine is a no-go, these are the things he/she is looking at not specific to CDC data. A good doctor would say "I don't know... let us see." (As per my dialogue example)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Doctors have to keep up with current info, and they don't know everything. The CDC is a top authority so they should check it.

The thing is, Shadow. I'm just talking about medical ethics not whether to take the vaccine or not. Whoever takes the vaccine or not is their thing "and" that doesn't exclude I would hope most people check with their doctors (IF appropriate) before jumping the gun. The argument isn't for or against vaccines just something ideally people should do when they are told to take something that benefits their health and in this case others.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And. They have to align it with a. their own experiences b. their expertise, and c. the patient story, symptoms, and history.

If the doctor says the vaccine is a no-go, these are the things he/she is looking at not specific to CDC data. A good doctor would say "I don't know... let us see." (As per my dialogue example)

Any doctor who says the vaccines are a no-go is not making a valid evidence based statement and is going against the scientific and medical consensus. It would be most unethical.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Amd that's not telling you to refrain. It's taking a step to address your concerns. That's normal.

Yes. This should be for all people who are concerned whether they have preexisting conditions or not. Its alright to say "hey, let me think about this more than just CDC data A" before jumping to get the vaccine.