My problem with Muslims from personal experience

[Jumi]

Are you sure those weren't Indian doctors? Indians are typically very cool, down to earth people, especially the non-Muslim ones.

I'm quite sure said doctor was an immigrant from the Middle-East. It is surprising to me that you aren't willing to accept that there are positive examples of the group.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm quite sure said doctor was an immigrant from the Middle-East. It is surprising to me that you aren't willing to accept that there are positive examples of the group.

Islaam, for good or worse, is impressive and very influential.

On hindsight, a lot of what we accept casually of the most brutal and most stubborn of human behavior (such as the current trend towards "blasphemy laws") comes from attempts at perceiving Islaam as something worth respecting and protecting.

Of course there are positive examples among Muslims. They are, after all, human beings in every respect. But as awareness of Islaam increases, so does the (necessary) perception that Islaam is not something to protect at all.

 

[Cooky]

I'm quite sure said doctor was an immigrant from the Middle-East. It is surprising to me that you aren't willing to accept that there are positive examples of the group.

My moms cancer doctor was a Sikh. Genuinely a good person by the vibes I got from him.

 

[Jumi]

My moms cancer doctor was a Sikh. Genuinely a good person by the vibes I got from him.

If you had a similar positive experience with a Muslim would it change things for you?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

It is however remarkable how intense and widespread that attitude is in Muslim communities.

Outside Brazil, have you ever been to a Muslim country?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Threads like this is the reason why I don't blame some Muslims for disliking the world. For me I can relate to Muslim stereotypes under the basis that no matter how much good you do in the world, if someone in your demographic acts out you're automatically labeled. If a Muslim is moderate they are somehow acting outside the tenants of their faith. If a Muslim is a patriot somehow they are not Muslim but "western." Muslims get all the credit for negativity and none of the good. Unlike the OP I've had positive experiences with Muslims. I've also had negative ones. Most of my encounters with Muslims have been positive. They're just like anyone else they just want to live. Ironically I've had most negative experiences with Jews (except 1 doctor who was really nice), Indians from India, Asians, Whites, Christians, Jehovah Witnesses, Catholics, Baptist Christians funny I don't see the OP talking about these folks.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I've noticed Muslims, whether they be from Sub Saharan Africa, the Indian subcontinent or Arabia, don't ever blame themselves for their wrongdoings.

They condemn Israel, complain about American foreign policy, say 9/11 was an inside job and say ISIL is a grand Israeli conspiracy.

I know a Turkish guy and a half Lebanese girl from my hometown who both drink alcohol and smoke

From college I know a British born Bangladeshi and British born Pakistani. The latter is part of Pakistani solidarity campaign (but drinks alcohol).

From undergraduate I know a Saudi male (anti Israel), an Omani girl (anti USA/Israel), a male from Guinea Bissau (anti USA/Israel, anti colonial), a half Lebanese half Libyan with a hijab, a British born Pakistani with a long beard, a British born Bangladeshi who wants to go on Hajj but he drinks alcohol, and another 3 British born Asians (don't know where they're from).

From postgrad I know a Sudanese male (hates America), a Bahrainian girl (quite liberal actually), a Saudi lady (hijab, pro Palestine), a Palestinian guy, a Jordanian girl, a Qatari girl (hijab), a Senegalese guy and a Malaysian with a hijab.

I think your problem was with ‘people’ because a Muslim is a person of peace and goodwill who is humble and doesn’t drink alcohol. The people you said you have problems with do not fit the description of Muslims.

A man shall be known by his deeds not by what he calls himself.

 

[DanishCrow]

So you elevate your very limited anecdotal experience to a universal judgment. Call me crazy, but I don't think they're the ones with a problem

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I've only personally interacted with extremely tepid "believers" of Islam. Basically, they were the Islamic equivalent of Sunday-only Christians. I could tell the beliefs were just something they were raised with, that they hadn't personally devoted themselves to the beliefs, and had adopted any of the religion's culture simply because it also pervaded their culture in general.

I talked to one man who identified as "Muslim", who attended a Christian church upon arriving in the U.S., and when talking to me about it, proceeded to ask me all sorts of questions about Jesus, and whether all the things they talked about in the church's sermon actually happened. Sort of a sobering moment for me - coming to the realization just how easily some people can be swayed in one direction or another with nothing but the words of another to go on. This guy was basically ripe for the picking for any proselytization attempt. It wouldn't have taken much to push him over into the "Jesus" camp in particular in that moment, that's for sure.

 

[icehorse]

From a cognitive science perspective, the Quran is a very effective and dangerous book. First, cognitive scientists will tell you that your mind is frequently NOT in control of your brain. With that in mind (ar ar), ANY Muslim who spends a lot of time reading or studying the Quran, WILL have supremacist, tribalistic messages transferred into their long term memory.

I'm sure that most Muslims are peaceful people, but the immoral messages are in their brains, and they have to be suppressed forever. There is a LOT of cognitive dissonance in the brains of peaceful Muslims who have studied the Quran.

Now the scholars will tell you that I've got it all wrong. That I'm not reading the book with all the context I need. Again, I'm not making any claims as to scholarly interpretations. The only point I'm making is that human brains (not minds, brains), will remember simple, emotional experiences, especially when exposed to high repetition. For those of you who have not read the Quran - it is EXTREMELY repetitious on a few very immoral points.

 

[oldbadger]

It goes way beyond casual friendship.

Very very good friends goes beyond casual acquaintanceship.

] The Grand Mufti cooperated with Hitler in very consequential initiatives in what is now Israel.

So their cooperation ion very consequential intiatives kind of backfired on them both, wouldn't you say?

To this day the best that can be said about those is that they might be attributed to honest nationalism. Or maybe they can not.

And none of that acquaintanceship or cooperation can be hung around the necks of the many thousands of peaceful Muslims today.

 

[LuisDantas]

Very very good friends goes beyond casual acquaintanceship.


So their cooperation ion very consequential intiatives kind of backfired on them both, wouldn't you say?

Did it?

It seems to me that both were eager to attain the results that they eventually got. Sure, Hitler at least was not very adept at thinking forward, but I would assume that he was surprised by his own ascension, or even its resultant fall.

And none of that acquaintanceship or cooperation can be hung around the necks of the many thousands of peaceful Muslims today.

No. But their lack of willingness to take a badly needed stance against the mistakes of the past - or for that matter those of the present - definitely can.

 

[oldbadger]

Did it?

It seems to me that both were eager to attain the results that they eventually got. Sure, Hitler at least was not very adept at thinking forward, but I would assume that he was surprised by his own ascension, or even its resultant fall.

No. But their lack of willingness to take a badly needed stance against the mistakes of the past - or for that matter those of the present - definitely can.

I don't believe that last para at all........

Several years ago I ran a thread about a Muslim couple who beat their little boy because he could not recite the Koran. When he died from these beatings they burned down their home in an attempt to hide the murder and deceive the Police.

Many members on RF went ballistic about my OP, calling out all manner of bigotry in the OP, and only two or three members especially @savagewind supported my points in the thread about Muslim parents believing that they would be accepted in to Heaven automatically if their children would become 'Hafiz', and demonstrating how many UK Madrassas were mistreating children who could not remember their Islamic studies, these same schools distancing themselves from the National Curriculum.

What a turn around........

Since then the vast majority of Madrassas here have adopted the National Curriculum, all mention of parents reaching heaven if any of their children become 'Hafiz' have been expunged from the Net as far as I can find, and clearly........... Islam in the UK is adjusting.

So moaning on about what a Muslim Leader agreed (or not) with an International mass murderer like Hitler is not only out of date, irrelevant, and inaccurate with regard to most Muslim attitudes today, it's not helping this Thread Title, imo., which is trying to paint all Muslims with one brush. Is that what you're trying to do?

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't believe that last para at all........

Really?

I can't say that I understand how or why.

Several years ago I ran a thread about a Muslim couple who beat their little boy because he could not recite the Koran. When he died from these beatings they burned down their home in an attempt to hide the murder and deceive the Police.

Many members on RF went ballistic about my OP, calling out all manner of bigotry in the OP, and only two or three members especially @savagewind supported my points in the thread about Muslim parents believing that they would be accepted in to Heaven automatically if their children would become 'Hafiz', and demonstrating how many UK Madrassas were mistreating children who could not remember their Islamic studies, these same schools distancing themselves from the National Curriculum.

What a turn around........

Since then the vast majority of Madrassas here have adopted the National Curriculum, all mention of parents reaching heaven if any of their children become 'Hafiz' have been expunged from the Net as far as I can find, and clearly........... Islam in the UK is adjusting.

That is certainly better than the alternative.

I still find that too little and I very much doubt that it can be sustained.

So moaning on about what a Muslim Leader agreed (or not) with an International mass murderer like Hitler is not only out of date, irrelevant, and inaccurate with regard to most Muslim attitudes today, it's not helping this Thread Title, imo., which is trying to paint all Muslims with one brush. Is that what you're trying to do?

No. I just don't think that you are well supported in your opinion.

 

[Firemorphic]

ANY Muslim who spends a lot of time reading or studying the Quran, WILL have supremacist, tribalistic messages transferred into their long term memory.

Sources?

 

[Lyndon]

Sources?

Don't worry, these people speak a lot of complete nonsense!!

 

[SalixIncendium]

I hate...

For someone who self-identifies as dharmic, I'm afraid you have much to learn about dharma.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I think your problem was with ‘people’ because a Muslim is a person of peace and goodwill who is humble and doesn’t drink alcohol. The people you said you have problems with do not fit the description of Muslims.

A man shall be known by his deeds not by what he calls himself.

No True Scotsman fallacy.

Don't worry, these people speak a lot of complete nonsense!!

Let's hear it for the horse's mouth, everybody!

 

[gnostic]

I've noticed Muslims, whether they be from Sub Saharan Africa, the Indian subcontinent or Arabia, don't ever blame themselves for their wrongdoings.

They condemn Israel, complain about American foreign policy, say 9/11 was an inside job and say ISIL is a grand Israeli conspiracy.

I know a Turkish guy and a half Lebanese girl from my hometown who both drink alcohol and smoke

From college I know a British born Bangladeshi and British born Pakistani. The latter is part of Pakistani solidarity campaign (but drinks alcohol).

From undergraduate I know a Saudi male (anti Israel), an Omani girl (anti USA/Israel), a male from Guinea Bissau (anti USA/Israel, anti colonial), a half Lebanese half Libyan with a hijab, a British born Pakistani with a long beard, a British born Bangladeshi who wants to go on Hajj but he drinks alcohol, and another 3 British born Asians (don't know where they're from).

From postgrad I know a Sudanese male (hates America), a Bahrainian girl (quite liberal actually), a Saudi lady (hijab, pro Palestine), a Palestinian guy, a Jordanian girl, a Qatari girl (hijab), a Senegalese guy and a Malaysian with a hijab.

Most Muslims I have met, are either from Lebanon, from Turkey and from Pakistan. And they are generally nice people.

I have met them when I was studying, when I do my shopping and when I work with them.

None of them have preach to me about Islam. Or telling me that I should convert.

There may be some of them that caused troubles, but I have not met any of them.

Like inthe news, we sometimes heard about violent Muslims, destroying properties and threatening violence, but so far I haven’t seen any of this, so the media must be exaggerating the numbers.

Even here, I often get into arguments with Muslims over this topic and that, but that’s normal in these debate forums, because I get the same from Christians, and none of them threaten me, nor do I feel threatened.

Everyone here can express their views, but I haven’t seen much of you would you call racism or hatred here.

Few of them get preachy here, but get preached a lot more by Christians than from Muslims.

 

[ronki23]

Don't worry, these people speak a lot of complete nonsense!!

Lyndon, off the top off my head these are atrocities committed by Muslim groups:

* Direct Action Day in Bengal India- over 4000 non-Muslims killed by Muslims before India's partition
* Killing of Israeli athletes during Munich Olympics
* Assassination of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat
* Luxor Massacre- tourists killed and disembowled
* Attack on the World Trade Centre 1993
* 1998 bombing of Kenyan and Tanzanian embassies
* Bombing of Indian embassy in Afghanistan
* Bombing Indian parliament in Delhi
* 9/11- over 27,000 people killed
* Bali Nightclub bombings
* July bombings in London
* Siege on Taj Mahal Hotel in Mumbai
* Attack on American Embassy in Libya over depicting Muhammad
* Siege in Kenyan shopping mall by Al Shabaab
* Charlie Hebdo Massacre
* Multiple explosions and shootings in Paris
* Lee Rigby murder
* Boko Haram kidnapping girls in Nigeria
* Driving van into pedestrians in London (multiple occasions)
* Mass shooting and bombing during Ariana Grande concert in Manchester
* Attack on hotels in Kenya