sooda
Veteran Member
Isaiah 9:6 is about King Cyrus.
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Islam and Judaism are refuted.
Isaiah 9:6 is about King Cyrus.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
I didn't say that Christians traditionally consider themselves Jesus, I said they consider themselves Israel. Note that this idea, though it seems out of fashion in modern Christianity, is actually totally logical to traditional estimation of the history of Israel. You would have, some 'gentiles', of Israel, and some not, by my estimation. This might even be noted, this distinction, in the New Testament, although because of the general word gentiles, one would have to surmise where that "difference" is noted.
One such concept is 'those who sacrifice to idols', gentiles, and those who don't. It seems common knowledge in the Scripture, therefore may not have been deemed to explain in detail. This is in accordance with 'religious' historical belief, not secular academic, or such.
• in the book of Romans, for example, we have gentiles, jews, and jesus followers, or 'Church of God'. These are all different groups. The Jesus followers aren't called gentiles.
This does not necessarily maintain in all books or context, because you can still have a non-christian, non jew, yet still an Israelite.
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sooda
Veteran Member
People have tortured scripture for long time.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The word soul is synonymous with spirit. The soul is simply the human spirit, that never dies. The human spirit returns to God after the body dies.
“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159
It is important to understand what the Bible means.
The soul is destroyed in hell because a soul that was not close to God does not gain eternal life. Rather, that soul will become a victim of self and passion and sink in their depths.
Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
When Jesus said "lose his own soul" Jesus mean lose eternal life, which is a quality of life, not its duration.
Jesus referred to eternal life, but He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, loving God and being close to God, and we can have eternal life both in this world and in the next world (afterlife).
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
The soul (spirit) of man is immortal so it can never be extinguished. All souls continue to exist forever, but some souls have eternal life and others don’t.
“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223
“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225
“The meaning is that the life of the Kingdom is the life of the spirit, the eternal life, and that it is purified from place, like the spirit of man which has no place. For if you examine the human body, you will not find a special spot or locality for the spirit, for it has never had a place; it is immaterial. It has a connection with the body like that of the sun with this mirror. The sun is not within the mirror, but it has a connection with the mirror.” Some Answered Questions, p. 242
Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.
“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243
firedragon
Veteran Member
Everything in that verse is perfect tense.
For a child is born unto us, / A son is given unto us; / And the government is upon his shoulder; / And his name is called / aPele-joez-el-gibbor- / Abi-ad-sar-shalom; / - Tanah
See how many are reasonable.
New International Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
New Living Translation
For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
English Standard Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Berean Study Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
New American Standard Bible
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
King James Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Christian Standard Bible
For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on his shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Contemporary English Version
A child has been born for us. We have been given a son who will be our ruler. His names will be Wonderful Advisor and Mighty God, Eternal Father and Prince of Peace.
Good News Translation
A child is born to us! A son is given to us! And he will be our ruler. He will be called, "Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Eternal Father," "Prince of Peace."
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
International Standard Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
NET Bible
For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. He shoulders responsibility and is called: Extraordinary Strategist, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
New Heart English Bible
For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
A child will be born for us. A son will be given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. He will be named: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
JPS Tanakh 1917
For a child is born unto us, A son is given unto us; And the government is upon his shoulder; And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
New American Standard 1977
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Jubilee Bible 2000
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government is placed upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called The Wonderful One, The Counsellor, The God, The Mighty One, The Eternal Father, The Prince of Peace.
King James 2000 Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
American King James Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
American Standard Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Brenton Septuagint Translation
For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.
Darby Bible Translation
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
English Revised Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Webster's Bible Translation
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
World English Bible
For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Young's Literal Translation
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
How do you know, by the way, that Hosea was a prophet and lived and prophesied just before the destruction of Israel? Who told you that?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Oh, I see, you're going by what Bahaullah says. That is different from that which the Bible says.
A person must have the life that God wants him to have if he is to attain to eternal life. At least you seem to acknowledge that one can lose eternal life. Eternal life is not a life span with an end. Eternal life means life without end.
Trailblazer said:
You say, "Some souls have eternal life and others don't, but they all continue to "exist forever"? That sounds like a contradiction to me. Ezekiel 18:20 offers this help, but there's more if one is willing to examine things -- "The soul who sins shall die." The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." Thus the Bible says the soul can die.
I'll stop here except to say that the devil offered "eternal life" to Eve at the beginning. But God told her--not her and her soul spirit--that if she disobeyed His command, she would die. He didn't tell her anything beyond that the penalty would be death. Satan the devil serpent offered a very misleading utterance to Eve, she believed him, Adam joined her, and this is what we have. The Bible says that the SOUL THAT SINS, DIES.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Let's take Strong's Concordance for hayah: it means, "to fall out, come to pass, become, be."
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
How do you know that? Did someone tell you?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yeah but how do you know that Isaiah 9:6 was written about Cyrus???
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
I didn't say it was, I said Christians would be Israel, or that is the idea. Just calling oneself a christian may not mean that. Jesus isn't Israel, to my understanding.
If you can provide verses that say that Jesus is literally Israel, it would be great.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
How do you know that? Many didn't believe what the prophets said anyway about worship. But then again, there are the temple remains as a reminder that something really big did happen in the first century, and although some are waiting for a rebuilding, it is taking a rather long time. Some say unity of the Jewish people is necessary. Since there are so many divisions and opinions, I won't ask you if you think or how you think unity will be established. Still taking a long, long time, and of course, scientists do say time is running out for the earth's ability to sustain itself with global pollution nowadays.
Maybe you think the temple buildings were all just a big joke also, along with prophecy. But that reminder of the wall is there, perhaps you think it's connived, but it's showing that what the Bible says is true. Standing as a monument to what happened. Maybe you think someone came on to the land and put up those stones signifying the temple wall that was there in the first century.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
OK, you're right, it wasn't you that said Isaiah 9:6 is about Cyrus. To my knowledge, Jesus is not signifying Israel. His footstep followers may be.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
First of all, do you believe that Israel was God's son in Egypt? If I recall correctly, didn't you say you didn't believe that Israel was in Egypt and was taken out of bondage?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You're putting a smile on my face because you don't believe what the Bible says, yet you quote it sometimes as if you do. So either it's all a sham in your mind, or none of it is.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
It seems we agree, Israel wouldn't be specific to Jesus Himself.
Regardless, since a country cannot be 'called out of Egypt', it clearly means Spiritual Israel.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What Baha’u’llah wrote is not different from the Bible, it is just different from the usual Christian interpretation of the Bible. The OT said that the soul was only the breath of life, and it is the breath of life since it gives the body life, but the soul is more than just the breath of life. Baha’u’llah wrote a lot about the soul that was not in the Bible, but it does not contradict the Bible, it is simply new.
That is correct. Eternal life is (1) a quality of life of being close to God, but it is also (2) existing forever (without end).
All souls exist forever (without end), but only some souls have eternal life, a quality of life of being close to God.
The soul (spirit) of man is immortal so it can never be extinguished. All souls continue to exist forever, but some souls have eternal life and others don’t.
“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223
“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225
Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.
“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243
I think that means that some souls can die in the sense of losing eternal life; they are as dead in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God who gain eternal life, so the souls who do not gain eternal life are nonexisting and separated from God.
I think that meant she would lose eternal life, not physical life of the body.
Christians believe that the tree of life was a source of ongoing physical life, that Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life.
What is the Tree of Life?
“In Eden, the tree appears to have been a source of ongoing physical life. The presence of the tree of life suggests a supernatural provision of life as Adam and Eve ate the fruit their Creator provided. Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life. Once they sinned, they were banned from the Garden, separated from the tree, and subject to physical death, just as they had experienced spiritual death. Since Eden, death has reigned throughout history. But on the New Earth, our access to the tree of life is forever restored. (Notice that there’s no mention of a tree of the knowledge of good and evil to test us. The redeemed have already known sin and its devastation; they will desire it no more.)” What is the Tree of Life?
Baha’is believe that the tree of life is the Word of God which bestows eternal life, and it has nothing to do with the physical life of the body, which once dead, remains dead That is why Jesus said:
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits. Eternal life is a quality of life, of being near to God; it is not physical life, but spiritual life. God never created the physical body to live forever. Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in that realm.
It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)
“The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary 4 was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity—that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 124
From: 30: ADAM AND EVE
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firedragon
Veteran Member
So whats the significance?
Brother. I don't even understand why you even said that. Because whats used in the verse we're discussing is the word. "thehi", the past tense of Hayah. Already happened, not something that's gonna happen in future.
Check Genesis 10:30. Same tense, same word. Past or perfect tense. Already barren. Was. Not will be in the future.
Peace.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You are thinking of a nation as being a geographical location. Israel is a People. It is a TRIBAL nation. And so YES Israel CAN be called out of Egypt and reestablished in Canaan.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I stumbled on this quite by accident, and wanted to comment in return.
I see comments lie this from time to time and as a Jew/Israelite, I feel compelled to clear up the misunderstanding, since it is my people that are getting commented upon.
We are basically talking about a tribal people, the descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Israel, along with those who have been adopted into the people along the way (such as Ruth, Rahab for instance).
Abraham began life as a Sumerian from Ur, but became the first Hebrew when he crossed over the Euphrates River.
The term Hebrew continued to be used until the Exodus from Egypt. At the point where the 12 tribes left Egypt, they began to call themselves b'nei Yisrael, or Children of Israel (Israelites), often just shortened to Israel.
Sometime later in history, the Kingdom of Israel split into two smaller Kingdoms. The Northern Kingdom with 10 tribes plus levi (Joseph had divided into Manasseh and Ephraim) and the Southern Kingdom had 2 tribes plus levi. When the northern Kingdom of Isreal was destroyed, three things happened. Most of them went into captivity and were never heard from again (aka the ten lost tribes). Others intermarried with local pagans and became the Samaritans. Still others fled southward as refugees to the southern kingdom of Judah where they were welcomed. Thus the Southern Kingdom of Judah was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and the refugees of the 10 northern tribes.
When Judah went in the Babylonian Captivity, this means representatives from all 12 tribes plus levi went into exile. In Babylon, they were all indescriminataley called Jews, since they had come from the kingdom of Judah.
Thus, Jews refers to any of the tribes of the Children of Israel. IOW "Jews" are "Israelites" and "non-Jews" are the same as "non-Israelites."
And Israeli is a totally different thing from an Israelite. There are of course non-Jews who are Israelis.
Sorry this reply took so long, but it was necessary background to address you point.