Free will cannot exist at the same time as an omniscient, omnipotent being

[ImmortalFlame]

This is what the OP says: 2. If god is all knowing, he knew how his creation was going to turn out and understood the consequences of his actions when creating this world

My Creator qualifies. You are adding requirements by adding the word omniscient and defining it as you do.

But if your creator is all-knowing, then they DO have the issue with the OP.

I've not provided a specific definition of omniscient, but for the sake of debate I define it as being "all-knowing". If your God does not know the consequences of their actions, then they are not omniscient.

 

[David T]

... at least a being who is responsible for our creation.

I'll illustrate this in 3 points.

1. God apparently flooded the world because everyone was evil in their actions and thoughts

2. If god is all knowing, he knew how his creation was going to turn out and understood the consequences of his actions when creating this world

3. If god was all powerful, he could have created it in such a way that people weren't evil and he didn't need to kill them all.

If god knows how its all going to turn out and he knew every choice/thought you have before he created you, and he had the power to do it differently, it's only reasonable to assume that "free will" is an illusion of choice. If he already knows, then its already decided.

That is, if he existed.

Well thats like saying a rivers existence and shape is mechanically determined before its existence by laws of physics. I would say that neither understanding physics and by default the term god.

When ever there is a discussion that exists ex nihilo, out of nothing but fantasy, and has zero reference to nature well its talking about nature like we talk about bigfoot. Therefore how many bigfoots can dance on the head of a pun....? Do they have free will to dance?

 

[leov]

... at least a being who is responsible for our creation.

I'll illustrate this in 3 points.

1. God apparently flooded the world because everyone was evil in their actions and thoughts

2. If god is all knowing, he knew how his creation was going to turn out and understood the consequences of his actions when creating this world

3. If god was all powerful, he could have created it in such a way that people weren't evil and he didn't need to kill them all.

If god knows how its all going to turn out and he knew every choice/thought you have before he created you, and he had the power to do it differently, it's only reasonable to assume that "free will" is an illusion of choice. If he already knows, then its already decided.

That is, if he existed.

God is intelligent being not a tyrant, It can not have any entertainment or achieve goal at the same time without free will.

 

[Clear]

... at least a being who is responsible for our creation.

I'll illustrate this in 3 points.

1. God apparently flooded the world because everyone was evil in their actions and thoughts

2. If god is all knowing, he knew how his creation was going to turn out and understood the consequences of his actions when creating this world

3. If god was all powerful, he could have created it in such a way that people weren't evil and he didn't need to kill them all.

If god knows how its all going to turn out and he knew every choice/thought you have before he created you, and he had the power to do it differently, it's only reasonable to assume that "free will" is an illusion of choice. If he already knows, then its already decided.

That is, if he existed.

Hi Dan

I didn't want to enter into this debate other than to make a couple of points regarding definitions and assumptions.

i am christian but I think that the later christian movements created logical problems when they adopted the concept of omnipotence as a God who can do "ALL" things, even illogical things.
IF actual omnipotence means that a being has all power that a being of that type CAN have (but it cannot do ALL things, then this relieves them of certain logical problems).

Using creation as an example : Though early Judeo-Christian literature speaks of material creation from chaotic matter, later Christian movements adopted the model of "creation out of nothing". This creates problems of logic and coherence with certain scientific principles (e.g. conservation of matter/mass)

Similarly, the adoption of the later christian theory that God creates mankind out of "nothing" creates moral and philosophical problems. IF God creates an individual out of "nothing", then he is responsible for all characteristics that the individual has (including the individuals tendency to do evil). However, early judeo-Christian literature describes their belief that individual spirits had an eternal existence (just as all other types of matter had prior existence) and thus God did not create the matter that makes up spirit. In fact Pistis Sophia describes this spirit as "self willed matter".

the point is that if the spirits of mankind had an independent existence of some sort, then the onus of evil can be shifted to them. IF, God created mankind out of nothing, then there is nothing to be done about the dilemma and God is responsible for evil that his creation has.

I wish christianity had never adopted "creation out of nothing" and had not adopted the silly notion of illogical omnipotence where God can do absolutely anything that can be imagined (including creating himself...).

Good luck coming to your own models of how these principles relate.

Clear
ειφυφιω

 

[Hawkins]

... at least a being who is responsible for our creation.

I'll illustrate this in 3 points.

1. God apparently flooded the world because everyone was evil in their actions and thoughts

2. If god is all knowing, he knew how his creation was going to turn out and understood the consequences of his actions when creating this world

3. If god was all powerful, he could have created it in such a way that people weren't evil and he didn't need to kill them all.

If god knows how its all going to turn out and he knew every choice/thought you have before he created you, and he had the power to do it differently, it's only reasonable to assume that "free will" is an illusion of choice. If he already knows, then its already decided.

That is, if he existed.

1. God can choose not to know what you are doing. That's His capability. Those in the final hell won't draw any attention from God. Omniscience means He can (an ability in the end) know whatever His will wants to know. At the same time, He also has the capability to choose not to know something His will doesn't want to know.

2. Freewill is to facilitate evil inevitably, God's plan is to allow evil to show up on earth such that they can be destroyed once and for all to secure a future eternity - Heaven. Earth is more like a filter securing an clean aquarium. Everything dirty will remain in the filter such that a clean aquarium can be achieved.

3. God knows everything before hand, but in order to lawfully destroy evil which is a result of freewill, God needs open witnessing. The analogy is, it's not good enough for a judge in court to know what a criminal did. Evidence needs to be presented openly in front of a jury for the criminal to be convicted.

 

[columbus]

1. God apparently flooded the world because everyone was evil in their actions and thoughts

There's a big problem here.
The God of Genesis is not the same God as in later, more sophisticated, Scriptures. He wasn't anything like omnimax or benevolent.
He didn't happen to be around when Eve had her talk with the serpent. He had to personally inspect Babel to find out what was what before deciding how to deal with it. He had to send agents to investigate Sodom and report back.

Exodus God is much more powerful and ineffable, because the humans who invented Him were more sophisticated. But even He still had to send minions to do His bidding.

God was getting a lot more like the modern omnimax benevolent God by Christian times. But He still had a ways to go.

He's getting there now.
Tom

 

[Daemon Sophic]

... at least a being who is responsible for our creation.

I'll illustrate this in 3 points.

1. God apparently flooded the world because everyone was evil in their actions and thoughts

2. If god is all knowing, he knew how his creation was going to turn out and understood the consequences of his actions when creating this world

3. If god was all powerful, he could have created it in such a way that people weren't evil and he didn't need to kill them all.

If god knows how its all going to turn out and he knew every choice/thought you have before he created you, and he had the power to do it differently, it's only reasonable to assume that "free will" is an illusion of choice. If he already knows, then its already decided.

That is, if he existed.

You are correct @Dan Mellis . A truly omniscient and omnipotent creator cannot exist with free will in the subject matter of Its creation.
It would, by definition, know exactly how every quark and gluon in every neuron would influence every other in the minds of paupers and presidents in every civilization in the cosmos, 13 billion years after it started roiling all that energy (and matter?) back when It was creating the universe.

What’s gonna really cook your noodles is considering whether free will exists even in the absence of an omniscient God-being.
Seriously. If every neuronal connection and firing in your decision-making process is the result of a chemical reaction, and those are due to the motion of atoms and electrons; and at best those are influenced by the motion of magnetic fields, and gravity waves, ionic bonds, and/or photons zipping at you from 1 light-hour away for any decision you made in the last hour......then when in that (extraordinarily complex) chemical reaction did “human sentience” put its 2-cents into the process? And where in that process are you arbitrarily defining “human sentience”?

 

[joe1776]

But if your creator is all-knowing, then they DO have the issue with the OP.

I've not provided a specific definition of omniscient, but for the sake of debate I define it as being "all-knowing". If your God does not know the consequences of their actions, then they are not omniscient.

I prefer this definition for omniscient: (WordNet) infinitely wise

My infinitely wise Creator, can create freewill that is truly free. It doesn't need to know what each of us is up to.

 

[Shiranui117]

... at least a being who is responsible for our creation.

I'll illustrate this in 3 points.

1. God apparently flooded the world because everyone was evil in their actions and thoughts

2. If god is all knowing, he knew how his creation was going to turn out and understood the consequences of his actions when creating this world

3. If god was all powerful, he could have created it in such a way that people weren't evil and he didn't need to kill them all.

If god knows how its all going to turn out and he knew every choice/thought you have before he created you, and he had the power to do it differently, it's only reasonable to assume that "free will" is an illusion of choice. If he already knows, then its already decided.

That is, if he existed.

You assume that God's knowledge determines our actions, i.e. we do something because God knew we were going to do it. My church takes the opposite approach--God knows we are going to do something because we are going to do it. God is not just omniscient, He is eternal, meaning that He does not exist within linear time. All things are to Him as the present. So to Him, the creation of the world is the present, just as this current moment, just as the Final Judgement. He is forming us in our mother's womb even as He sits upon His throne casting judgement upon us, and all the while He is watching us in our lives and giving us the chance to do good and to turn away from evil. It's up to us whether we follow His direction or not.

God created us with complete freedom of will to do as we wish, and He didn't infringe upon that. He just so happens to know what we will do regardless. The fact that some of us may be damned isn't His fault, as He didn't create any of us with a greater or lesser chance of being damned. It isn't the hand that God dealt us which decides our fate, but rather how we decide to play the cards.

 

[Nakosis]

... at least a being who is responsible for our creation.

I'll illustrate this in 3 points.

1. God apparently flooded the world because everyone was evil in their actions and thoughts

2. If god is all knowing, he knew how his creation was going to turn out and understood the consequences of his actions when creating this world

3. If god was all powerful, he could have created it in such a way that people weren't evil and he didn't need to kill them all.

If god knows how its all going to turn out and he knew every choice/thought you have before he created you, and he had the power to do it differently, it's only reasonable to assume that "free will" is an illusion of choice. If he already knows, then its already decided.

That is, if he existed.

For the sake of argument,

What if God knows everything that exists. Can't really expect an omniscient being to know everything that doesn't exist. "Everything', thing is something that exists, has existence.

The future doesn't exist, at least not yet. The future is not a thing that exists.

The presumption is that the future is a thing that has existence. A thing that can be known. What if there is no thing to know about it until it exists. Even a being that knows everything that is could be blind about what does not yet exist.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I haven't really had a chance to throw this (in my mind) relevant link out there: Compatibilism - Wikipedia

 

[bobhikes]

... at least a being who is responsible for our creation.

I'll illustrate this in 3 points.

1. God apparently flooded the world because everyone was evil in their actions and thoughts

2. If god is all knowing, he knew how his creation was going to turn out and understood the consequences of his actions when creating this world

3. If god was all powerful, he could have created it in such a way that people weren't evil and he didn't need to kill them all.

If god knows how its all going to turn out and he knew every choice/thought you have before he created you, and he had the power to do it differently, it's only reasonable to assume that "free will" is an illusion of choice. If he already knows, then its already decided.

That is, if he existed.

If existence is only now then God can be both omniscient and omnipotent in the now and free will brings about the future. In other words god knows all your thoughts and action's now can influence anything now and in the next moment can be the same but God can not know the next moment until it happens.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

... at least a being who is responsible for our creation.

I'll illustrate this in 3 points.

1. God apparently flooded the world because everyone was evil in their actions and thoughts

2. If god is all knowing, he knew how his creation was going to turn out and understood the consequences of his actions when creating this world

3. If god was all powerful, he could have created it in such a way that people weren't evil and he didn't need to kill them all.

If god knows how its all going to turn out and he knew every choice/thought you have before he created you, and he had the power to do it differently, it's only reasonable to assume that "free will" is an illusion of choice. If he already knows, then its already decided.

That is, if he existed.

Your entire comment is considerably flawed.
You’re trying to think of something spiritual in earthly terms.
That is the flaw that the vast vast majority of people in religion use. You call yourself atheist, so please don’t assimilate religious concepts. That will only retard your journey. And I believe you are destined for a very exciting journey.

First clue I will give you: The earth was never flooded.
Second clue: free will is an absolute necessity. It’s actually a law of creation. (Not unlike gravity, and evolution)
Third clue: evil is an absolute necessity. Evil is permitted.

People have a glaring difference that makes them different than all other life forms. All other.

Think of what I said. Ponder the thoughts, and dig deeper. You will find the answers.

You notice I never mentioned god above. There is no need.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Second clue: free will is an absolute necessity. It’s actually a law of creation. (Not unlike gravity, and evolution).

I'd very much like to see your sources for that claim, if you're willing to share them.

 

[ChristineM]

As I understand it, the neurosciences have demonstrated the unlikelihood of free will. That's pretty much the end of the story, isn't it?

So how does one freely make a choice if free will is unlikely?


Should i have the bacon omelette or the goats cheese and fig salad? I wish this free will malarky were easier.

 

[stvdv]

Free will cannot exist at the same time as an omniscient, omnipotent being

... at least a being who is responsible for our creation.

You talk about "omniscient, omnipotent being" ... This being for sure has Free Will
So Free Will can exist, especially at the same time as "Omniscient, Omnipotent Being"

 

[Terry Sampson]

So how does one freely make a choice if free will is unlikely?

What thing do you think chooses when a choice is made?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

... at least a being who is responsible for our creation.
3. If god was all powerful, he could have created it in such a way that people weren't evil and he didn't need to kill them all.
If god knows how its all going to turn out and he knew every choice/thought you have before he created you, and he had the power to do it differently, it's only reasonable to assume that "free will" is an illusion of choice. If he already knows, then its already decided.
That is, if he existed.

Since the Bible teaches that God can Not lie then No, God is Not all powerful as stated ^ above - Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18
To already know would mean we are robots.
God did Not create creation to be automatons.
We all have our own voluntary will - Leviticus 1:3; 7:16; Exodus 35:21,29
Thus, we can all freely choose to obey or Not.
In the coming future there will be a great crowd of people coming through the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.

 

[Ponder This]

A lot of excellent replies, but I'll add that when you make a logical argument, you should begin with coherent notions. Otherwise, your logical argument becomes about as interesting as:

False Statement A implies False Statement B!

So a close examination of "omniscience" and "omnipotence" should occur and the question of why those notions are coherent.

For example: can an omnipotent being create a stone that he cannot lift? Why or why not? You end up running into these logic problems that involve things like:
The Barber shaves all the men in the village who do not shave themselves.
The Barber is a man who does not shave himself.

Therefore, the Barber shaves himself.

 

[Skwim]

1. God can choose not to know what you are doing. That's His capability.

And if god ever did choose not to know something he would cease to be omniscient. But Christian theology says this is not the case. It doesn't say that god is sometimes omniscient and sometimes not. It says god is omniscient. And unqualifiedly so. Therefore, even if god could choose not know something, by contending god is omniscient Christian theology in effect says this would never happen. God is omniscient, and omniscient all the time.

2. Freewill is to facilitate evil inevitably, God's plan is to allow evil to show up on earth such that they can be destroyed once and for all to secure a future eternity - Heaven. Earth is more like a filter securing an clean aquarium. Everything dirty will remain in the filter such that a clean aquarium can be achieved.

Who is this "they"?

3. God knows everything before hand, but in order to lawfully destroy evil which is a result of freewill, God needs open witnessing.

"Lawfully"? What law is this? And what is "open witnessing"?

.