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Featured Does the Bible mention Islam?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Nov 5, 2018.

?
  1. Yes

    16.7%
  2. No

    64.6%
  3. Maybe

    6.3%
  4. I don't know

    8.3%
  5. This poll doesn't reflect my thinking

    4.2%
  1. Dale

    Dale Member

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    Did the Jews pray as Muslims do ?! Islam in the Bible proof.
    ----------
    Prophet Muhammed was commanded to follow the Religion of Abraham. Had the religion of Abraham not known to him, we would not expect God to command him to follow it.

    "Then we inspiredyou (O Muhammed) to follow the religion
    of Abraham, monotheism; never was he an idol-worshiper."

    16:123

    [19:58] "These are some of the prophets whom GOD blessed. They were chosen from among the descendants of Adam, and the descendants of those whom we carried with Noah, and the descendants of Abraham and Israel, and from among those whom we guided and selected. When the revelations of the Most Gracious are recited to them, they fall prostrate, weeping."

    [19:59] "After them, He substituted generations who lost the Contact Prayers (Salat), and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences."

    Quran conforms that salat was lost after some generations for the people of the book. Losing it involved changing it in every aspect. The salat as practiced today by most of the Jews and Christians is different than what was given to their prophets. Very few Jews and Christians have maintained the inherited Salat.

    In a book entitles "To Pray as a Jew" I found a lengthy explanation of the the Prayers as done by the ancient Jews and few of the contemporary Jews. In this book the author put diagrams showing the movement and positions during the prayer. One look at these illustrations is enough for the Muslims to realize the similarity of the prayers of the Jews then and Salat as practiced by the Muslims.

    -------------

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    In his comment about these positions the author wrote : "In most contemporary congregations very few people keep to the tradition of falling prostrate. Sometimes it is only the Prayer leader and the rabbi who does so. In more traditional congregations, however, some worshipers, men and women, will join the Prayer Leader and rabbi in the act of prostrating themselves. In Israeli synagogues, the practice is more widespread than in synagogues elsewhere. Since this is a position that we are unaccustomed to, one who has never done this before might very well demur. But once accomplished, the experience provides such a spiritual uplift that one looks forward to repeating it. Those willing to try this ancient ritual form on the rare occasions that call for it might welcome the following diagrams of the correct procedure"
    It is also interesting to learn from this book that the prayers of the Jews involve wash before the prayers, (like Wuduu or ablution for Muslims), and the call for Prayers (like the Azan for the Muslims).

    Christians call Ablution Baptism, but according to the Greek Baptism means washing.
    Strong's Greek: 907. βαπτίζω (baptizó) -- to dip, sink
    Strong's Concordance
    Transliteration: baptizó
    , ceremonially washed.
    Ablution in the Christian traditions
    Ablution in Christianity - Wikipedia

    Exodus 19:10-11:
    Before God spoke to the Israelites from Sinai, he commanded them to consecrate themselves, wash their clothes and be ready by the third day, when he would appear to them.

    Explaining how the Muslims pray and wash before prayer.



    [​IMG]
    Judaism: Prayers



    Mah Tovu
    Early Morning Blessings (Birkhot Hashahar)

    Encyclopedia Judaica: Ablution
    Ablution
    Judaism
    Ritual purification - Wikipedia

    Exodus 40:32

    They washed whenever they entered the tent of meeting or approached the altar, as the LORD commanded Moses.

    Exodus 40:31
    and from it Moses, Aaron, and his sons washed their hands and feet.

    Exodus 30:19,20
    For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat: …

    Jewish Prayer - الصلاة اليهودية - כריעות בשמונה עשרה




    Muslim prayer
    How to pray 4 Rakat (units) - Step by Step Guide | From Time to Pray with Zaky



    1 Kings 8:48
    and if they turn back to you with all their heart and soul in the land of their enemies who took them captive, and pray to you toward the land you gave their ancestors, toward the city you have chosen and the temple I have built for your Name;

    Daniel 6:10
    Now when Daniel learned that the document had been signed, he went into his house, where the windows of his upper room opened toward Jerusalem, and three times a day he got down on his knees, prayed, and gave thanks to his God, just as he had done before.

    [​IMG]Prayer[​IMG]
    Direction of prayers [​IMG]Jews face Jerusalem [​IMG]Muslims face Mecca

    Muslims use to face Jerusalem because of the idols still in the Kaaba, and after the House of God was cleansed, Muslims faced the Kaaba a Mecca.

    Prostration [​IMG]Prostrate on certain festivals (although they used to prostrate 3 times a day) [​IMG]Prostrate (rakat) 17 times a day
    Praying with a group [​IMG]It is preferable to pray with a congregation
    Language of prayer [​IMG]Prayers are said in Hebrew and Aramaic [​IMG]Prayers are said in Arabic
    Prayer times
    • In the morning Jews pray brachot “When one can distinguish between blue and white [thread]” until the first quarter of the day
    • Shacharit from sunrise to noon
    • Ashrei / Mincha in the afternoon
    • Maariv at night
    • Shema before sleeping
    • At dawn Muslims should pray fajr “when white thread can be distinguished by you from a black one” until sunrise
    • Shuchar after noon until Asr
    • Asr in the afternoon
    • Maghrib after sunset but before dusk
    • Isha’a at night
    Similarities between Judaism and Islam | Judaism and Islam – comparing the similarities between Judaism and Islam

    "And he (Jesus) went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed..." (Matthew 26:39)

    "And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship..." (Joshua 5:14)

    "And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces…" (Numbers 20:6)

    "And Abraham fell on his face..." (Genesis 17:3)

    "…and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God." (Revelation 7:11)

    "…then they bowed their heads and worshiped the Lord with their faces to the ground." (Nehemiah 8:6)

    "…Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces." (1 Chronicles 21:16)

    According to the Manual of Discipline we find the Nazarene prayed 5 to 6 times a day.
    https://www.amazon.com/Dead-scrolls-Gospel-Barnabas-Testament/dp/0892590610

    The Dead Sea scrolls, the Gospel of Barnabas, and the New Testament Paperback – January 1, 1985
    by M. A Yusseff (Author)
    page 8
    Day and night I offer my prayers
    and all of the appointed times God has prescribed
    When daylight begins dawn
    When it reaches it's turning point midday
    When it again withdraws to it's appointed abode sunset
    When the watches of darkness begins evening
    When he sets darkness against light night
    when it reaches its turning point midnight
    and when it again withdraws in face of light dawn of the next day

    There's so much more evidence on this subject alone, but this should be enough on prayer and washing.

    More to come.
     
    #721 Dale, Nov 23, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Then fine, Islam was meant for the pagans of Arabia and not for Christians.
     
  3. Dale

    Dale Member

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    Sabbath according to Islam

    Introduction

    Jewish and Muslim Sabbath, the similarities, the differences and why.

    Intention of the Sabbath (Hebrew; Day of Rest)

    Is the Sabbath for Remembering God ? Yes, even more so than resting.

    The Bible editors humanize God in relation to the Sabbath by saying;

    "By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done" (Genesis 2:2).

    Bible editors took the idea that God rested farther still when they wrote as follows: "In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed" (Exodus 31: 17).

    Is God a human that gets tired and needs to rest and refresh ? Of course not;

    "GOD IS NOT A MAN, that he should lie ; NEITHER THE SON OF MAN that he should repent.... (Numbers 19:23)

    God in the Quran clarified the matter in His own words when He declared:

    "And verily we created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six periods, and naught of weariness touched us" (Quran 50:38 see also v. 15).

    Dispelling any human weaknesses attributed to God and showing the intention of the Sabbath is not to rest, but to remember the beautiful Creation God made.

    Even Prophet Jesus emphasizes the misinterpretation of the Sabbath;

    Mark 3:1-5: Jesus observed the Sabbath, but criticized the Pharisees' overly strict rules and regulations concerning the day of rest. He emphasized throughout his ministry a different purpose for the Sabbath: a day to be enjoyed by the believer, and a time when many normal activities were quite permissible.

    The idea that God rests like humans and gets refreshed like humans was also criticized by Jesus. According to John, he declared that God never stops working, even on the Sabbath day (see John 5:16).

    According to the Holy Quran, the Final Testament, God does not get tired "Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him" (Quran 2:255), verifying the focus of the Sabbath is not rest, but remembrance.



    Sabbath in the Bible

    Similar to the Muslim form of the Sabbath, the Bible lists a Function of the Sabbath is to have a Religious Assembly. Congregating on the Sabbath is commanded by God in Leviticus:

    • Leviticus 23:1-3 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the people of Israel, The appointed feasts of the LORD which you shall proclaim as holy convocations, my appointed feasts, are these. 3 Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation; you shall do no work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.
    The Hebrew word for convocations is migra, meaning a calling (together), according to Young's Analytical Concordance. Migra is the Hebrew word used in Leviticus 23:4-44 for all the holy convocations commanded for the High Sabbaths also.

    Another similarity is Leviticus 23:32, the Day of Atonement is defined as a Sabbath. Islam also believes that Friday is a day for attaining atonement more than any other day of the week:

    The Holy Prophet Muhammad said : "The day of Friday has been exalted and conferred many rights. Therefore do not be negligent of your duty. Do not be tardy in your worship this day. Try to attain nearness to Allah by performing pure deeds and refraining from the prohibited things, because this day Allah increases the reward for good deeds and obliterates the sins. Allah raises the position of the believer in the world and the Hereafter."

    Yet the Israelites considered the Sabbath a curse as pointed out in Amos 8:4-6 4

    "Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail, Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit? That we may buy the poor for silver, and the needy for a pair of shoes; yea, and sell the refuse of the wheat?"

    Israelites disobeying the Sabbath was also documented in Nehemiah 13:16

    "Men of Tyre also, who lived in the city, brought in fish and all kinds of wares and sold them on the sabbath to the people of Judah, and in Jerusalem."
    The Sabbath that was issued to the rebellious Hebrews with Moses became an unbearable restraint towards the Bounties of God to the Israelites, then they were forgiven.
    Sabbath in the Quran

    "O ye who believe! When the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business (and traffic): That is best for you if ye but knew! " 62:09

    The curse of financial confinement is forgivingly removed upon embracing Islam while the substance and content of the Sabbath is in place, the merciful removal of the restriction from God's bounty is specified in the following verse:

    "And when the Prayer is finished, then may ye disperse through the land, and seek of the Bounty of Allah: and celebrate the Praises of Allah often (and without stint): that ye may prosper. " 62:10

    An example in the Bible of God no longer desiring Israelis to follow the Sabbath is:

    Isaiah 1:10-15
    " Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of assemblies--I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them. 15 When you spread forth your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood."

    Here we see how God depending on the Actions of the Jews, changes His relationship with the Jews, similar to being exiled from Israel and being returned to Israel.

    With this in mind, the Quran Sabbath is understood as a Merciful Sabbath. Though there is still a Punishment for Breaking the Sabbath.

    "The punishment for profaning the Sabbath was imposed only on those who had differed about it and thy Lord will surely judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differed." Quran 16:124



    This is another excellent illustration of how the Quran complements and completes the Bible. In the Bible we are faced with two complications regarding Sabbath breaking. The first is that the punishment for Sabbath-breaking is death. In practice, this is not carried out in the current age. Christ showed by his example how the legislation of the Torah was to be interpreted. He did not as Christianity claims abrogate it.

    The second Friction is that there is no provision for delaying the Sabbath. If there is something to prevent Sabbath observance on the seventh day, there is no provision in the Torah or any other Scripture for putting it off to the following day, as there is for the Passover, for example, which under certain conditions may be observed in the following month. This means that there are occasions when the intention to observe the Sabbath cannot always be carried out perfectly. If something arises which was unforeseen and unintended, the Sabbath cannot be delayed to the following day.

    It has to remain as it is, whether or not its observance turned out to be as was intended. Therefore, the punishment is meted out upon those who dispute the obligation. Those who made the proper intention to observe the Sabbath, but whose observance for unforeseen reasons did not match their intention, are not punished for Sabbath-breaking.



    The reason for Allah altering the Sabbath and Jesus starting the changing of the Sabbath and confirming the Qur'an and Muhammad and his changing certain Hebrew Laws.

    The Sabbath is clearly impractical and unreasonable in today's age. Every WEEK for a DAY, a person is asked not to perform daily, necessary acts.

    Which stresses how the Hebrews forms of Islam have been altered a little bit, because of the scripture changes and Hebrew Islam, is neither universal NOR timeless

    They cannot light fires, switch on lights, use transport, perform paid labor etc etc. A lot of problems can arise from this. Especially in today's day and age


    Sabbath in Islam - Jews for Allah
     
  4. Dale

    Dale Member

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    Tzedakah and Sadaqah… the laws of charity in Islam and Judaism

    Both the Jewish and Muslim traditions obligate their followers to help those less fortunate. In Judaism this obligation is called sedaqah (tzedakah) which is based on the Hebrew word (צדק, Tzedek) meaning righteousness, fairness or justice. In Islam according to al-Mawardi this obligation is called sadaqah which means strengthening something with something.

    In both Islam and Judaism supporting the needy is not an optional good deed, but an obligatory necessity like breathing or drinking. In Islam there are 2 forms of charity zakat, a charity all Muslims give if they can afford to, and a voluntary charity known as sadaqah (although as noted earlier, while not practised so commonly today this term and zakah can be used interchangeably). Sadaqah has no upper or lower limits and a person gives what they believe to be just.

    Who gives what?

    Judaism Islam
    Called Sedaqah (tzedakah) Sadaqah and Zakah
    Minimum 10%

    “Let this stone that I have set up as a pillar become a temple to God. Of all that You give me, I will tithe a tenth to You.”(Genesis 28:22)
    2.5%

    “When Abu Bakr; sent me to (collect the Zakat from) Bahrein, he wrote to me the following:– (In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful). These are the orders for compulsory charity (Zakat) which Allah’s Apostle had made obligatory for every Muslim, and which Allah had ordered His Apostle to observe: Whoever amongst the Muslims is asked to pay Zakat accordingly, he should pay it (to the Zakat collector) and whoever is asked more than that (what is specified in this script) he should not pay it; … For silver the Zakat is one-fortieth of the lot (i.e. 2.5%), and if its value is less than two-hundred Dirhams, Zakat is not required, but if the owner wants to pay he can.'” (Bukhari Volume 2, Book 24, Number 534)
    Maximum – everyone 20%

    R. Elai stated: It was ordained at Usha that if a man wishes to [give to charity] liberally he should not spend more than a fifth (Talmud Ketubot 50a)
    2.5%

    “When Abu Bakr; sent me to (collect the Zakat from) Bahrein, he wrote to me the following:– (In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful). These are the orders for compulsory charity (Zakat) which Allah’s Apostle had made obligatory for every Muslim, and which Allah had ordered His Apostle to observe: Whoever amongst the Muslims is asked to pay Zakat accordingly, he should pay it (to the Zakat collector) and whoever is asked more than that (what is specified in this script) he should not pay it; … For silver the Zakat is one-fortieth of the lot (i.e. 2.5%), and if its value is less than two-hundred Dirhams, Zakat is not required, but if the owner wants to pay he can.'” (Bukhari Volume 2, Book 24, Number 534)
    Maximum – the rich Unlimited Unlimited Obligation

    “If there be among you a needy man, one of thy brethren, within any of thy gates, in thy land which HaShem thy G-d giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thy heart, nor shut thy hand from thy needy brother” (Deut. 15:7)
    “What is Islam?” Allah’s Apostle replied, “To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat)” Hadith of Gabriel
    How is it distributed?

    Judaism Islam
    Distribution
    1. Captives, prisoners and matters of life and death
    2. Very close relatives
    3. The poor and places of religious learning
    4. The wider community
    5. To finance your own religious needs

    1. Those living in absolute poverty
    2. Those who were restrained because they cannot meet their basic needs
    3. The zakat collectors themselves
    4. Non-Muslims who are sympathetic to Islam or wish to convert to Islam.
    5. People whom one is attempting to free from slavery or bondage. Also includes paying ransom or blood money (Diyya).
    6. Those who have incurred overwhelming debts while attempting to satisfy their basic needs
    7. Those working in Allah’s way
    8. Children of the street / Travellers
    Charitable preference
    1. Giving a poor person work
    2. Making a partnership with him or her
    3. Giving an interest-free loan to a person in need.
    4. Giving a grant to a person in need.

    1. Zakah – Obligatory tax every Muslim must pay
    2. Sadaqah Wajibah – Obligatory charity that isn’t zakat (for missed fasts, pledges, atonement, sacrifices, etc)
    3. Sadaqah Nafilah – Optional charity (alms given for the removal of difficulties, philanthropic (beyond zakat), the giving of Halal items, thanks giving to Allah)
    4. Qarz Hasan – An interest free loan
    Widows and Orphans Do not mistreat an orphan or a widow
    “Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child” Exodus 22:21
    Do not mistreat an orphan
    “Have you considered him who calls the judgment a lie? That is the one who treats the orphan with harshness, And does not urge (others) to feed the poor. So woe to the praying ones, Who are unmindful of their prayers, Who do (good) to be seen, But refuse (to supply) (even) neighbourly needs).” (Qur’an, Sura 107 (Al-A’raf), ayat 1-7[2], Islam)
    Crops
    • In the third and sixth years of a 7 year cycle all crops are left for the poor
    • 2% of grain, wine or oil should be given to the priests

    • 9.9% of crops to the priest or Levi
    • In the second, fourth and fifth years 10% of crops are given for the poor
    • A corner of any field is left for the poor
    • Gleanings of crops and single grapes left on the floor after the harvest are left for the poor

    • Zakah on irrigated crops – 5%
    • Zakah on rain, river or spring-watered crops – 10%
    How should one give?

    Judaism Islam

    Give ungrudgungly
    “Thou shalt surely give him, and thy heart shall not be grieved when thou givest unto him;” (Deuteronomy 15:10)

    Saddka should be given solely out of love for God, out of the desire to do good to His creation, as the Quran says about the righteous:”They give food, out of love for Him (Allah), to the poor, the orphan, and the slave, saying: We feed you only for Allah’s pleasure – we desire from you neither reward nor thanks.” (Al-Insaan 76:8-9) Qur’an, Sura 7 (Al-A’raf), ayat 73-74[4],

    Islam
    Give anonymously
    On seeing someone giving charity publicly Rabbi Yannai said “It would have been better had you not given him anything, because your giving shamed him.” (Talmud Chagigah 5a)
    There are eight levels of charity, each greater than the next. [1]Support your fellow by endowing him with a gift or loan, partnership or finding employment for him. [2] Give to the poor without knowing to whom one gives, and without the recipient knowing from who he received. (Mishneh Torah, Laws of Charity, 10:7–14)
    If ye disclose (acts of) charity, even so it is well, but if ye conceal them, and make them reach those (really) in need, that is best for you (Surat Al-Baqarah 2:271)

    Is there a reward?

    Judaism Islam
    Atonement
    “Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakai said: Just like teshuvah atones for Israel, giving charity atones for all of the world” (Bava Basra 10b)
    “Sadaqa extinguishes sin as water extinguishes fire.” (Tirmidhi : 2541)
    Pro-longs Life
    “but charity (righteousness) delivers one from death” (Proverbs 10:2)
    “Sadaqa appeases the Lord’s anger and averts an evil death.” (Tirmidhi : 1909)
    Avert calamity

    Prayer, repentance, and charity avert the evil decree” (Ta’anit 2:1, 65b)
    “Give the Sadaqa without delay, for it stands in the way of calamity.” (Tirmidhi: 1887)

    Charity in Islam and Judaism
    What is Tzedakah?

    Tzedakah and Sadaqah… the laws of charity in Islam and Judaism | Judaism and Islam – comparing the similarities between Judaism and Islam

    Why is Charity So Important in Islam? - Zakat Foundation of America
     
  5. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    You know nothing about the Christian bible/scriptures, all you do is twist things into saying what you want the Christian bible/scriptures to say. To fit your agenda.
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    At but not IN. ;)
    Not that it really matters, since that does not prove anything... :rolleyes:
     
  7. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus didn't teach the Gentiles. It didn't mean His religion wasn't for the Gentiles.
     
  8. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Christ Jesus never said in Jerusalem

    Christ Jesus said it cannot be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.

    So 200 miles is outside of Jerusalem..
    Even 5 miles is outside of Jerusalem.
    But mount Moriah/ Calvary is right there at Jerusalem. Which is only about a stone throw away.
    Now how far do you suppose a person could throw a stone.
    The farthest a stone has been thrown is
    8 tents of a mile.
    But that's a professional baseball player.
    So how far could an average person throw a stone ?
    So mount Moriah/Calvary is still in the area of Jerusalem and not outside of Jerusalem area.
     
  9. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    No it doesn't but lets have a look at the verses from the Holy Quran you use to support the unfounded claims of Muslim apologists.

    Here's another translation of the same verse;

    So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.
    5:13

    Surah Al-Ma'idah [5:13]

    It refers to the spiritual condition of those who claim allegiance to God. They disobey what God has sent them in regards laws and violate His covenant. They distort meanings of words and ignore passages that don't suit them. There is nothing about interfering with the actual text of the Torah and Gospel as alleged.


    But do they not know that Allah knows what they conceal and what they declare?
    And among them are unlettered ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming.
    So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

    Quran 2:77-79
    Surah Al-Baqarah [2:77-79]
    Surah Al-Baqarah [2:79]

    These verses are a warning not to change the sacred text as Allah knows. It does not say that the Jews and Christians have changed the text.


    O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you. They distort words beyond their [proper] usages, saying "If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware." But he for whom Allah intends fitnah - never will you possess [power to do] for him a thing against Allah . Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.
    5:41
    Surah Al-Ma'idah [5:41]

    This refers to traditions amongst the Jews to twist the meanings of words to suit themselves. It does not refer to changing the text of the Torah.


    Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?
    Quran 2:75
    Surah Al-Baqarah [2:75]

    This verse is probably the strongest to support your argument if taken literally. However it can clearly mean having a distorted understanding of the Torah.



    There is no good reason to assume the Quran is saying anything about adding or omitting to the text of the Torah and Gospels. There is every reason to believe the Jews and Christians have misunderstood their own Holy Books, but then again so have the Muslims as you have clearly demonstrated. It is a grave and vain accusation upon the Jews and Christians to say they have changed the text of their own Holy books. How could people who have such reverence for God and love for His words do such a thing? How could they have got away with it? If one changed the book then surely the others would notice. They must have all colluded together. Such a scenario is preposterous.

    The irony is you have distorted the words of the Holy Quran to accuse the Christians and Jews of what Muhammad never said.

    The hypocrite men and hypocrite women are of one another. They enjoin what is wrong and forbid what is right and close their hands. They have forgotten Allah, so He has forgotten them [accordingly]. Indeed, the hypocrites - it is they who are the defiantly disobedient.
    9:67
    Surah At-Tawbah [9:67]
     
    #729 adrian009, Nov 23, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
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  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I do not want to argue about this anymore. Maybe it matters to you what Jesus said or where Jesus was crucified but it does not matter to me because it does not prove anything about Baha'u'llah. But you can believe that it does if you want to, it does not matter to me. We all have our own beliefs. :)
     
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  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Then why might I ask, did you bring it for then, if it doesn't matter, it seems People are always bring up things, just to say later it doesn't matter.
    Just remember you came to me and not me to you.
    So if it doesn't matter, then don't bring up.
     
  12. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    It is true that scholars can not agree about who were the authors of any of the four gospels. The Gospel of John has the strongest evidence of authorship based on a disciple of Jesus (the Apostle John). It is the words of the Gospels that are the greatest testimony to their Divine origin. Beyond that we know the Gospels were all written within the first century Christ was crucified. The earliest, the Gospel of Mark would have been written about 30 years after Jesus's crucifixion.

    That is true.

    The arguments about authorship are generally based on the words of the second century church fathers as you say.

    Mark, Matthew, and Luke are known as the synoptic gospels and shared much material so undoubtedly there was collaboration. The order they were written is usually though of as Mark, Luke and then Matthew. However you are wrong to say that Luke and Matthew are simply copies of Mark.

    This analysis of the material they share or is unique completely refutes any idea that Matthew and Luke are copies.

    [​IMG]
    Synoptic Gospels - Wikipedia

    The Gospel of Thomas is not considered canonical as it has gnostic influences.

    The use of a Q-source is well known theory amongst bible scholars. It does not detract from the authenticity of the synoptic gospels which may have in part used a source that is now considered lost.

    None of this of course supports an argument the gospels have been tampered with. They are simply works of scholars that consider how the gospels were derived in the first place.

    The five gospels book is very left field in regards bible scholarship. At least scholars in the West are free to study the Holy books in such a manner. There is no such freedom of course in many Muslim countries. In some countries leaving Islam is punishable by death.

    The Gospels are authentic. If they were not Muhammad would have said so. He didn't. If they weren't then they would contradict the Quran. They don't. The Gospels and Torah are authentic and the real deal as the Quran is. God has provided the Christians with His guidance through the gospels as He has the Jews through the Torah and the Muslims the Quran.
     
    #732 adrian009, Nov 23, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
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  13. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    I think you must look up the Bible from different religious perspectives, thus the Torah and Tanakh of Judaism, and the old and new testaments of Christianity.

    But to answer your question, it would be “no” on both sides.

    I know from past experiences, here and other forums, that some Muslims tried to tie Muhammad to certain selective and very loosely interpretations of the biblical passages, as if they were prophetic to Muhammad, but it is same tactics that some Christians tried to use certain passages in the Old Testament as prophetic to Jesus as the messiah.
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Here is how this got started:

    Faithofchristian said to Adrian:
    Jesus made it very clear on stating ( for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem) all prophets of Gods perish in Jerusalem.
    Any other Prophets that did not die in Jerusalem are false Prophets.

    Then Trailblazer said: I guess Jesus is a false Prophet then because He perished outside of Jerusalem

    But as I said it does not matter to me. I was just making a comment but I did not want to haggle over it. :)
     
    #734 Trailblazer, Nov 23, 2018
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  15. W3bcrowf3r

    W3bcrowf3r Active Member

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    That's not the case with the Quran. The Quran confirmed the Laws of the Tora and the Gospel.
    And the Gospel also confirmed the Laws of the Tora.
     
  16. W3bcrowf3r

    W3bcrowf3r Active Member

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    The Quran doesn't say that.
     
  17. W3bcrowf3r

    W3bcrowf3r Active Member

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    I disagree with your view, it also contradicts the Quran. God says that He sends to Messengers to every Nation, to warn them. Which means that we will have more then one Message being followed at the time.

    A perfect example is, the Arabs and the Quran, and the Gentiles and the Gospel and the Israelites and the Tora.
     
  18. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    But then Jesus said there will be one shephard, one fold. (John 10:16)

    The prophet Isaiah also predicted it time of world peace and harmony.
    Isaiah 2:2-5
    Isaiah 9:6-7
    Isaiah 11:6-9

    So while there will always be different faiths, the era of human history we are part of now with its globalisation and interdepence necessitates a fundamental shift towards embracing the oneness of humanity and essential unity of religion.
     
  19. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Quran 3:50
     
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  20. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    The word, which often is translated as 'nation', or 'people' in Quran, is not with regards to race, or geographic location. Quran was not revealed only for Arabs. For examples Persian Muslims also, are part of the People or Nation of Islam, but they are not Arabs. Salman the Persian, was a companion of Muhammad. Muhammad had also sent a letter to the Persian king, asking Him to follow His revelation.
    Jesus was sent to the Jews, as He was their promised Messiah, but when He came to them, He changed some of the Laws of Torah. See Quran 3:50
     
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