Does the Bible mention Islam?

[Marcion]

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:29-30

This author of gMatthew indeed had a very rich imagination.
But just like aLuke he did not hesitate to twist and deform the words of Yeshua himself in order to be able to project his own religious vision that is quite far removed from the original mission of Yeshua and is mostly fictitious story telling with a very narrow religious agenda.

So honouring such authors is quite meaningless, they are way too far removed from the Tantric teachings of Yeshua and lost in religious cloud-coockoo-land.
But in the specific religious communities of these authors, those ideas would have been well accepted despite their unacceptable origins.
It does not however make sense to try to transpose such texts into newer ideologies, at least not if you are a more rational person focussed on real spirituality instead of religious make-believe.

 

[Muffled]

What is spiritual blindnes, those who believe in the false prophets Muhammad and Baha'ullah, those are in Spiritual Blindness.

Seeing how Muhammad does not believe that Christ Jesus is God, Nor that God came down here in the likeness of man.

Nor does Muhammad believe that Jesus as God died on the cross for the sin of the world, That is Spiritual Blindness. Of not knowing who Christ Jesus is.
For Christ Jesus is God in the body of flesh and blood.
To denounce this, are in Spiritual Blindness.

I believe that is not evident and what is evident is misunderstood by Muslims and Christians.

 

[Muffled]

So you want people to believe, the first Woe trumpet is Muhammad, so your saying that Muhammad is a trumpet.

How you come by that is anyones guess
Muhammad a trumpet.

Well that shows what happens when people listen to man's teachings and not the teachings of Gods.

Baha'u'llah has no clue or idea what the Three woe trumpets are or represents.

Then you wonder why Baha'u'llah and Muhammad are false Prophets.

I believe I agree. A religious philosopher has no better insights than anyone else and there certainly is no evidence to support these concepts. They are wildly speculative.

 

[Muffled]

That was post no. 666 on this thread! Should I see it as a sign of the Satan within you?

t is imperative that we should renounce our own particular prejudices and superstitions if we earnestly desire to seek the truth. Unless we make a distinction in our minds between dogma, superstition and prejudice on the one hand, and truth on the other, we cannot succeed. When we are in earnest in our search for anything we look for it everywhere. This principle we must carry out in our search for truth.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá

Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God.
Bahá’u’lláh

The truth shall set you free.
John 8:32

All the best

I believe it was proper for talking about false prophets and Mr 666 surely is one.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This author of gMatthew indeed had a very rich imagination.
But just like aLuke he did not hesitate to twist and deform the words of Yeshua himself in order to be able to project his own religious vision that is quite far removed from the original mission of Yeshua and is mostly fictitious story telling with a very narrow religious agenda.

So honouring such authors is quite meaningless, they are way too far removed from the Tantric teachings of Yeshua and lost in religious cloud-coockoo-land.
But in the specific religious communities of these authors, those ideas would have been well accepted despite their unacceptable origins.
It does not however make sense to try to transpose such texts into newer ideologies, at least not if you are a more rational person focussed on real spirituality instead of religious make-believe.

So what is the evidence to support Q-lite over the Gospel of Matthew?

 

[CG Didymus]

Not without being exploited by a tax system that benefit the rulers within these Caliphates.

So this "can't" buy or sell and the number 666 are all dealing with a beast that comes after the beast with the wound, which that Baha'is say was one of the Umayyad's that set up his rule in Andalucía after the Abbasids conquer the other Umayyad leaders. So this is years and years after the first Umayyad took control back in 661AD, right or wrong? So who was this beast that came into power after the beast with the wound? Are those questions clear enough and not too obfuscated?

Supposing you have an answer that isn't twisted and turned and flipped around, then who ever you say this last beast is with the number 666 and is the one in which people can't buy or sell unless they have his "number" or "mark", then how and why do you kick this "666" number all the way back to the start of the Umayyads and use it a prophecy about the date when the Umayyads first took power? And, no fair obfuscating, that's may job. Your job is to show skeptics the truth of how these prophecies were fulfilled.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So this "can't" buy or sell and the number 666 are all dealing with a beast that comes after the beast with the wound, which that Baha'is say was one of the Umayyad's that set up his rule in Andalucía after the Abbasids conquer the other Umayyad leaders. So this is years and years after the first Umayyad took control back in 661AD, right or wrong? So who was this beast that came into power after the beast with the wound? Are those questions clear enough and not too obfuscated?

Supposing you have an answer that isn't twisted and turned and flipped around, then who ever you say this last beast is with the number 666 and is the one in which people can't buy or sell unless they have his "number" or "mark", then how and why do you kick this "666" number all the way back to the start of the Umayyads and use it a prophecy about the date when the Umayyads first took power? And, no fair obfuscating, that's may job. Your job is to show skeptics the truth of how these prophecies were fulfilled.

The exegesis of Revelation 13 is based on Baha'i scholars and is not authoritative. The Baha'i writings do not provide a detailed exegesis of every verse. As explained the beast 666 is the Caliphate. The Caliphate is presented in different ways throughout the book of Revelation. We have a specific representation of the Umayyad Caliphate in Revelation 13:1-2 and the Abbasids by the second beast in Revelation 13:11-12. We have the wounded head (Revelation 13:3 that represents another Caliphate in Andalucía (Spain) that lasted over 300 years.

The second beast enforced the regime of the Umayyads with great severity, ruthlessly murdering even those who had helped the Abbasids to gain power. The marks were the "right hand" or working hand tax which was a business tax (Kharaj) the land and the "forehead" the head tax (Jizya) paid by non-Muslims, marking them as inferior and symbolizing in concrete form their subjection to the Muslim State. Many non-Muslims fled to avoid these taxes. Trading was forbidden unless one had paid the tax (had the mark) or was "Muslim" (name of the beast), or was a member of the ruling class (number of his name). The tax wasn't unique to the Abbasids though.

The Umayyads are emphasised by 666, because of the role of its Caliphate in usurping the authority of Muhammad's rightful successor Ali and so corrupting Islam. The date of course fits in regards the time elapsed from the birth of Christ along with the seven heads and ten horns referring to kingdoms and rulers.

 

[CG Didymus]

The exegesis of Revelation 13 is based on Baha'i scholars and is not authoritative. The Baha'i writings do not provide a detailed exegesis of every verse. As explained the beast 666 is the Caliphate. The Caliphate is presented in different ways throughout the book of Revelation. We have a specific representation of the Umayyad Caliphate in Revelation 13:1-2 and the Abbasids by the second beast in Revelation 13:11-12. We have the wounded head (Revelation 13:3 that represents another Caliphate in Andalucía (Spain) that lasted over 300 years.

The second beast enforced the regime of the Umayyads with great severity, ruthlessly murdering even those who had helped the Abbasids to gain power. The marks were the "right hand" or working hand tax which was a business tax (Kharaj) the land and the "forehead" the head tax (Jizya) paid by non-Muslims, marking them as inferior and symbolizing in concrete form their subjection to the Muslim State. Many non-Muslims fled to avoid these taxes. Trading was forbidden unless one had paid the tax (had the mark) or was "Muslim" (name of the beast), or was a member of the ruling class (number of his name). The tax wasn't unique to the Abbasids though.

The Umayyads are emphasised by 666, because of the role of its Caliphate in usurping the authority of Muhammad's rightful successor Ali and so corrupting Islam. The date of course fits in regards the time elapsed from the birth of Christ along with the seven heads and ten horns referring to kingdoms and rulers.

In Revelation chapter 17 it has explanations of who and what some of these things are. What do you have as interpretation of them?

Revelation 17
1 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters.
2 With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”
3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.
4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries.
5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery: BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.
7 Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.
10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.
11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.
13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.
14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.
18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

 

[Dawnofhope]

In Revelation chapter 17 it has explanations of who and what some of these things are. What do you have as interpretation of them?

There's little in the way of direct references from the Baha'i writings to this chapter. I rely on Baha'i scholars.

Revelation 17
1 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters.
2 With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”

The great whore is the corrupted Word of God. She sits on the sea of humanity (see revelation 17:15 below). To commit fornication with the harlot means to make use of her services that, is false or corrupted doctrine.

3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.

Scarlet is the color of spiritual beauty among the Muslims. The seven heads and ten horns of course identify the beast as the Umayyad Caliphate and its image, the Abbasid Caliphate. The harlot lives in the wilderness of spiritual desolation and error.

4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries.

The harlot is blasphemously arrayed in the purple of royalty and the scarlet of spiritual beauty. She is adorned with precious gifts bestowed upon her by her its leaders, the corrupt priesthood and temporal rulers.

5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery: BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

This verse explains that the harlot, Babylon, the corrupted Word of God, is the secret source of all the world's abominations. The harlot in the wilderness of spiritual desolation is contrasted with the bride who flees into the desert wilderness for her survival in Revelation 12:6. The Bride is the undefiled Word of God. In her pure role she is the Holy city of Jerusalem. In her corrupted role she is Babylon.

6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

7 Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns.

8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

The angel explains that the beast "was" (existed as the Empire of Alexander), "is not" (did not exist in the first century AD), but will ascend out of the pit of error and will ultimately be destroyed. Those whose names were not written in the Book of Life will marvel when they behold the Empire of Alexander come into existence a second time.

It was the dream of ancient rulers and conquerors to re-establish the Empire of Alexander. The dominions ruled by both Alexander and the Umayyad rulers included large areas of the three continents of Asia, Africa, and Europe, and united East and West. The eastern borders of the two Empires were virtually identical.

9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

The harlot sits on an Empire of seven dominions or nations (mountains). Of the seven dominions symbolized by seven kings, five will be fallen, that is, under the control of foreign powers before their conquest by the beast. These five were the Roman (Byzantine) dominion around Damascus (Syria, Palestine), the dominions of Arabia, Egypt, Africa (Libya), and Andalusia (Spain). One dominion "is," meaning that it will remain sovereign until the "hour" of the beast. This was Persia. The dominion which "is not come" was Turkestan-Transoxania.

In the first century, the region now known as Turkestan was occupied by nomadic pastoralists and sedentary cultivators. The region became Turkish in the sixth century AD, about 500 years after the writing of the Apocalypse. It was conquered in the late seventh and early eighth centuries by the Umayyad who gave the region the name of Ma Wara'an-Nahr, "the land beyond the Oxus" or "Transoxania."

10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

The dominion will continue a short space. The prophecy means that Turkestan-Transoxania will cease to exist with the invasion of Genghis Khan 1218-1220 AD.

11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

The beast will have an eighth ruler, who is one of the seven, and who will ultimately be destroyed. This refers to The Caliph. The caliphate was abolished by the Turkish Grand National Assembly on 2 March 1924, less than three years after the Ascension of 'Abdu'l-Baha in 1921.

12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

The ten horns are the names of kings who did not have a kingdom in the first century AD. They will receive power for only an hour with the Umayyads. An "hour" is a part of a "day," and is therefore, a part of a "year" of 360 years. The Umayyads had sovereignty for 89 years, about one-fourth of a "day."

13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.

The dominions and rulers of Islam will give power to the beast, personified in the Caliph.

14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

The Muslim State will make war on the Bab 9 (The lamb) and His followers, but that the Bab will gain the spiritual victory, because He is a Manifestation of God, that is, Lord of lords and King of kings.

15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

This explains the symbol of the sea of humanity in Revelation 17:1 above.

16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

The rulers of the Umayyad caliphate will collude with the harlot, the corrupted Word of God, destroy her beauty, and will condemn her with the fire of their words. God has put it into their hearts that they should satisfy His Will and agree with each other, giving their dominions to the beast until the words of the prophecy have been fulfilled.

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The harlot is Babylon, the corrupted Word of God, that has dominion over the rulers of the earth. The metaphor could extent to corrupted theology amidst Christendom.

 

[CG Didymus]

There's little in the way of direct references from the Baha'i writings to this chapter. I rely on Baha'i scholars.



The great whore is the corrupted Word of God. She sits on the sea of humanity (see revelation 17:15 below). To commit fornication with the harlot means to make use of her services that, is false or corrupted doctrine.



Scarlet is the color of spiritual beauty among the Muslims. The seven heads and ten horns of course identify the beast as the Umayyad Caliphate and its image, the Abbasid Caliphate. The harlot lives in the wilderness of spiritual desolation and error.



The harlot is blasphemously arrayed in the purple of royalty and the scarlet of spiritual beauty. She is adorned with precious gifts bestowed upon her by her its leaders, the corrupt priesthood and temporal rulers.



This verse explains that the harlot, Babylon, the corrupted Word of God, is the secret source of all the world's abominations. The harlot in the wilderness of spiritual desolation is contrasted with the bride who flees into the desert wilderness for her survival in Revelation 12:6. The Bride is the undefiled Word of God. In her pure role she is the Holy city of Jerusalem. In her corrupted role she is Babylon.





The angel explains that the beast "was" (existed as the Empire of Alexander), "is not" (did not exist in the first century AD), but will ascend out of the pit of error and will ultimately be destroyed. Those whose names were not written in the Book of Life will marvel when they behold the Empire of Alexander come into existence a second time.

It was the dream of ancient rulers and conquerors to re-establish the Empire of Alexander. The dominions ruled by both Alexander and the Umayyad rulers included large areas of the three continents of Asia, Africa, and Europe, and united East and West. The eastern borders of the two Empires were virtually identical.



The harlot sits on an Empire of seven dominions or nations (mountains). Of the seven dominions symbolized by seven kings, five will be fallen, that is, under the control of foreign powers before their conquest by the beast. These five were the Roman (Byzantine) dominion around Damascus (Syria, Palestine), the dominions of Arabia, Egypt, Africa (Libya), and Andalusia (Spain). One dominion "is," meaning that it will remain sovereign until the "hour" of the beast. This was Persia. The dominion which "is not come" was Turkestan-Transoxania.

In the first century, the region now known as Turkestan was occupied by nomadic pastoralists and sedentary cultivators. The region became Turkish in the sixth century AD, about 500 years after the writing of the Apocalypse. It was conquered in the late seventh and early eighth centuries by the Umayyad who gave the region the name of Ma Wara'an-Nahr, "the land beyond the Oxus" or "Transoxania."



The dominion will continue a short space. The prophecy means that Turkestan-Transoxania will cease to exist with the invasion of Genghis Khan 1218-1220 AD.



The beast will have an eighth ruler, who is one of the seven, and who will ultimately be destroyed. This refers to The Caliph. The caliphate was abolished by the Turkish Grand National Assembly on 2 March 1924, less than three years after the Ascension of 'Abdu'l-Baha in 1921.



The ten horns are the names of kings who did not have a kingdom in the first century AD. They will receive power for only an hour with the Umayyads. An "hour" is a part of a "day," and is therefore, a part of a "year" of 360 years. The Umayyads had sovereignty for 89 years, about one-fourth of a "day."



The dominions and rulers of Islam will give power to the beast, personified in the Caliph.



The Muslim State will make war on the Bab 9 (The lamb) and His followers, but that the Bab will gain the spiritual victory, because He is a Manifestation of God, that is, Lord of lords and King of kings.



This explains the symbol of the sea of humanity in Revelation 17:1 above.




The rulers of the Umayyad caliphate will collude with the harlot, the corrupted Word of God, destroy her beauty, and will condemn her with the fire of their words. God has put it into their hearts that they should satisfy His Will and agree with each other, giving their dominions to the beast until the words of the prophecy have been fulfilled.



The harlot is Babylon, the corrupted Word of God, that has dominion over the rulers of the earth. The metaphor could extent to corrupted theology amidst Christendom.

Ok, thanks. I just wonder why things like the Plagues in Europe and the British Empire and Spanish Empires didn't make it into the prophecies somewhere.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Ok, thanks. I just wonder why things like the Plagues in Europe and the British Empire and Spanish Empires didn't make it into the prophecies somewhere.

Its a reasonable question.

First consider the seven seals in Revelation 5:1 and what they represent.

Seals 1-4 are represented by the four horseman of the apocalypse. The first seal (Revelation 6:1-2) is symbolised by one on a white horse with a crown and a bow going forth conquering and with the intent to conquer. This symbolised corrupt theology.

The second seal represented by the red hose symbolises war. The third seal represented by the black horse symbolises economic injustice. The fourth seal represented by the pale horse is ungodliness. The fifth seal is martyrdom and the sixth seal social upheavel. These six seals are thematic of the history within Christendom.

The opening of the seventh seal accompanied by the first four angels in Revelation 8 are associated with specific events in the Christian Church.

1/ The first great persecution of the Christians 110-238 AD.

2/ The second great persecution of the Christians 249-311 AD.

3/ Constantine (Wormwood) and the embitterment of Christianity 325 AD.

4/ The fall of Western Civilisation and the beginning of the dark age 408-563 AD.

The fifth angel is associated Muhammad and the rise of Islam with the Caliphates impacted significantly on Christianity (Revelation 9:1-12).

The sixth angel associated with the loosening of the four angels of the Euphrates as associated with the fall of Constantinople 1453 AD, the spiritual centre of Christendom in the East.

These six angels, like the six seals are associated with general principles of religious declines in Revelation 16 as the scene is set for the world wide end of the age culimating in the battle of Armageddon (beginning with WWI).

So while there is no specific mention of the great plague of Europe, and the Spanish and British Empires clearly they are part of the larger story of the unfoldment of God's Revelation. The black death pandemic in Europe in the 14th century may have been God's retribution that pathed the way for European renaissance. The Spanish Empire played an important role in the great commission but also embodied aspects of corrupt theology. The British Empire defeated the Ottomons in a decisive battle in Megeddo during WWI.

 

[Salvador]

Isaiah 45:7 may be a vague reference to Islam. "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." The overall standard of living in Islamic nations is far below that of non-Islamic nations.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Ok, thanks. I just wonder why things like the Plagues in Europe and the British Empire and Spanish Empires didn't make it into the prophecies somewhere.

The prophecies in the Holy books are about the signs of future Revelations, and the consequences of disobedience to God's revelations and rejection of His guidance. The purpose of prophecies in the Holy Books, is to inform humanity about a future manifestation, such as the Messiah, to warn about false teachers, and the good news and warnings due to acceptance or rejections of God's revelation. Those events which give signs to recognize the expected time of a new Manifestation, have made it into the prophecies in Holy Books.

 

[CG Didymus]

Its a reasonable question.

First consider the seven seals in Revelation 5:1 and what they represent.

Seals 1-4 are represented by the four horseman of the apocalypse. The first seal (Revelation 6:1-2) is symbolised by one on a white horse with a crown and a bow going forth conquering and with the intent to conquer. This symbolised corrupt theology.

The second seal represented by the red hose symbolises war. The third seal represented by the black horse symbolises economic injustice. The fourth seal represented by the pale horse is ungodliness. The fifth seal is martyrdom and the sixth seal social upheavel. These six seals are thematic of the history within Christendom.

The opening of the seventh seal accompanied by the first four angels in Revelation 8 are associated with specific events in the Christian Church.

1/ The first great persecution of the Christians 110-238 AD.

2/ The second great persecution of the Christians 249-311 AD.

3/ Constantine (Wormwood) and the embitterment of Christianity 325 AD.

4/ The fall of Western Civilisation and the beginning of the dark age 408-563 AD.

The fifth angel is associated Muhammad and the rise of Islam with the Caliphates impacted significantly on Christianity (Revelation 9:1-12).

The sixth angel associated with the loosening of the four angels of the Euphrates as associated with the fall of Constantinople 1453 AD, the spiritual centre of Christendom in the East.

These six angels, like the six seals are associated with general principles of religious declines in Revelation 16 as the scene is set for the world wide end of the age culimating in the battle of Armageddon (beginning with WWI).

So while there is no specific mention of the great plague of Europe, and the Spanish and British Empires clearly they are part of the larger story of the unfoldment of God's Revelation. The black death pandemic in Europe in the 14th century may have been God's retribution that pathed the way for European renaissance. The Spanish Empire played an important role in the great commission but also embodied aspects of corrupt theology. The British Empire defeated the Ottomons in a decisive battle in Megeddo during WWI.

Might as well go into the Protestant Reformation too. So Baha'is here have said that Christianity was already in its winter when Muhammad came. But was it in its winter or totally corrupt? By the time Martin Luther comes around the Christian Church has lots of problems, but so does Islam. Those corrupt leaders have been in power in Islam several centuries. And, now hits the Protestant Reformation. And might as well throw in the Sunni/Shia split. Are these things in some of the prophecies in the Book of Revelation?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Might as well go into the Protestant Reformation too. So Baha'is here have said that Christianity was already in its winter when Muhammad came. But was it in its winter or totally corrupt? By the time Martin Luther comes around the Christian Church has lots of problems, but so does Islam. Those corrupt leaders have been in power in Islam several centuries. And, now hits the Protestant Reformation. And might as well throw in the Sunni/Shia split. Are these things in some of the prophecies in the Book of Revelation?

The corruption that resulted from the Shi'a/Sunni schism is certainly clear with Muhammad and Ali being the two witnesses. The Protestant/Catholic schism is simply part of the four horses of the apocalypese, the first being corrupt theology.

Its interesting to relfect on the growth and success of both Islam and Christianity as well as its demise. One of the outstanding successes of Christianity has been the great commission or the spread of the gospels to all the nations. This was achieved by the mid-nineteenth century. Christianity was much more advanced in the East long before there was stability in the Christian West. Islam, despite its corruption,witnessed a flourishing of the arts and sciences through the Islamic Golden Age. This in turn ignited the European renaissance. Both Christianity and Islam are struggling with adjusting to modernity. Both religions are irrepairably divided and out of tune with the modern world. While simplistic school room analogies are of limited value in describing progressive revelation, so too are analogies in regards the seasons when applied to the histories of the two largest religions on the planet.

What can revive the potency and vitality of the religion of God in this age?

The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it?… The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 22-24

 

[Dawnofhope]

Isaiah 45:7 may be a vague reference to Islam. "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." The overall standard of living in Islamic nations is far below that of non-Islamic nations.

I agree in regards the standard of living of Islamic Nations though the oil rich arabs are an exception. Islamic civilisation at one stage was the most prosperous and advanced on the planet through the Islamic Golden age from 750 to 1250. It then went into a steady decline.

I doubt if Isaiah 45:7 refers specifiaclly to Islam. Isaiah 45:1 mentions King Cyrus of Persia who ordered the rebuild of Jerusalem and the second temple during the first Jewish exile.

 

[Muffled]

So this "can't" buy or sell and the number 666 are all dealing with a beast that comes after the beast with the wound, which that Baha'is say was one of the Umayyad's that set up his rule in Andalucía after the Abbasids conquer the other Umayyad leaders. So this is years and years after the first Umayyad took control back in 661AD, right or wrong? So who was this beast that came into power after the beast with the wound? Are those questions clear enough and not too obfuscated?

Supposing you have an answer that isn't twisted and turned and flipped around, then who ever you say this last beast is with the number 666 and is the one in which people can't buy or sell unless they have his "number" or "mark", then how and why do you kick this "666" number all the way back to the start of the Umayyads and use it a prophecy about the date when the Umayyads first took power? And, no fair obfuscating, that's may job. Your job is to show skeptics the truth of how these prophecies were fulfilled.

Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth.

I believe there is no antecedent for this beast.

I believe they have the country right (Turkey) for the head of the beast that was wounded but figuring that into an end of time line doesn't work with the Umayyads in my opinion.

 

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Isaiah 45:7 may be a vague reference to Islam. "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." The overall standard of living in Islamic nations is far below that of non-Islamic nations.

I believe I don't see any connection. Please be specific in pointing one out.