Why Torah based Jews would be unconvinced

[firedragon]

Actually the number of Imams is in the Tanakh and Torah as well.

So I was right. This was your aim all along.

No worries mate. I am not gonna discuss this at all. Cheers.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I don't know Hebrew but I know how to not miss the forest for the trees. In which you miss the forest for the trees.

Given that many forests contains trees most normal people can easily see the difference between vegation found in a forest.

By like token a person who knows no Arabic could claim to be a Quranic scholar and literally contradict (أركان الإسلام) found in the Arabic text. They could also claim that they see the forest from the trees better than any Muslim. If I interpret the Quran in Hebrew differently than Muslims interepret it in Arabic am I authoratative to Muslims?

 

[Redemptionsong]

The Covenant with Jews was and is "everlasting" as well, and at least some Christian denominations have finally come to realize and acknowledge it.

I'm talking about the covenant of law, delivered to Moses and the lsraelites. This covenant was not a covenant of faith.

Do you believe that men are justified by 'works of the law'?

 

[firedragon]

Given that many forests contains trees most normal people can easily see the difference between vegation found in a forest.

By like token a person who knows no Arabic could claim to be a Quranic scholar and literally contradict (أركان الإسلام) found in the Arabic text. They could also claim that they see the forest from the trees better than any Muslim. If I interpret the Quran in Hebrew differently than Muslims interepret it in Arabic am I authoratative to Muslims?

Thats not how you should present it. I will give you an example.

Arkaanu islami does typically mean pillars of islam. But in all actuality, it is a definition of the pillars or what ever you wish to call it. Arkan actually means the corners that provide strength to the structure. Not necessarily pillars. Thats just a simple example of how language works. So in other sentences when the same word Arkan is used, it will not mean pillars. No way. It can even mean a corner. Some corner. It depends on the sentence and context. So someone with simple knowledge in arabic would understand this. I am only using this as an example because you used that phrase in your post.

Only someone with extensive Hebrew knowledge would understand the nuances of language, without it, we are only pretending to be scholars. A lot of people pretend. In fact, for a jew, what we say about the Tanakh may look like such pathetic jokes.

This is the reason I dont engage in religious polemics that try to go back and prove their current theology through the Tanakh. It is futile. Some Christians would try to prove Jesus was the Messiah from versus in the Tanakh that never say the word Messiah, but they will ignore verses in Psalms that directly says Messiah, but it does not serve their purpose. Its pathetic. Muslims do this too and there is no denial. For example the citing of Mukhammadim in psalms. If I misspelled I apologise. I dont know Hebrew so my transliteration might anger people. Very famous muslim apologists have used the mention of this word to denote it is a prediction about Muhammed the Islamic prophet. But it remains that they only remember this word, but if they read the rest of the psalms it is evident this is talking about a lover of some sorts. It does not fit the bill.

So this kind of cherry picking and painting the dart around the already planted arrow is seriously flawed apologetics. And I really really cant understand why they are so desperate.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Thats not how you should present it. I will give you an example.

Arkaanu islami does typically mean pillars of islam. But in all actuality, it is a definition of the pillars or what ever you wish to call it. Arkan actually means the corners that provide strength to the structure. Not necessarily pillars.

I agree with you. That is actually why I used it that way. I.e. using Link's line of logic, I am a better Quranic expert than anyone who is fluent in Arabic, knows the Quran, knows the culture it comes from, etc. just because I think I am. Thus, I can now tell any Muslim that I see the forest from the trees when it comes to their system. Besides I copied it from Wikipedia.

Being a reasonable person I would never make such a claim.

 

[firedragon]

I agree with you. That is actually why I used it that way. I.e. using Link's line of logic, I am a better Quranic expert than anyone who is fluent in Arabic, knows the Quran, knows the culture it comes from, etc. just because I think I am. Thus, I can now tell any Muslim that I see the forest from the trees when it comes to their system.

Being a reasonable person I would never make such a claim.

I respect that. A lot.

 

[Kenny]

"If that is what you consider to be true then why does it matter to you what we Jews say?" That is the question I often want to ask when threads are started as if they are asking questions to Jews when instead what is being posted is a statement or manifesto. That is not to say that some people aren't actually asking honest questions. I am speaking about a minority of situations where someone really isn't.

Just for the sake of brevity there is a real simply way to understand why Torah based Jews don't buy into Christian theology.

1. If what you beleive as a Christian makes you happy then you keep it. It is yours, enjoy. You won't get any arguement from most Jews about what you personally beleive. We are not here to try to convince you to take on our views.

And, really, I am fine with that. It isn't really our job to "convince" anyone but rather just share and, as it was said of the Jews in Thessalonica, they searched the scriptures themselves to see if it was so.

As in the time of the birth of those who believed in Yeshua, it was always a position of passionate discussion.

I am quite thankful for the Torah and the fact that the Jewish nation preserved the scriptures with such accuracy. We love to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

 

[metis]

I'm talking about the covenant of law, delivered to Moses and the lsraelites. This covenant was not a covenant of faith.

It was and is a "Covenant of Faith", as keeping the Law is a large part of that faith per what is says in Torah and elsewhere throughout the entire Tanach.

Do you believe that men are justified by 'works of the law'?

That is not easy to answer in brief because the application of the Law is somewhat different between Jews and Christians-- and yet at the same time it isn't that different. I'll briefly explain.

Jesus synthecized the 613 Commandents found in Torah down to Two Commandments: love of God and love of neighbor. He was not the first Jew to do this as Hillel taught this when asked what Torah was really about: "I can answer this standing on one leg, namely to not do unto others that which you do not want done unto to yourself. The rest is commentary, now go study." Basically, that's the Golden Rule stated in an alternative way.

So, are we to live out of the "law of love"? Absolutely, and that is the gist also believed in within Judaism.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And, really, I am fine with that. It isn't really our job to "convince" anyone but rather just share and, as it was said of the Jews in Thessalonica, they searched the scriptures themselves to see if it was so.

Greetings. Didn't you say last time that it was the Jews of Berea that did that? HERE Not to sound like a broken record but are there are any modern day Christians who descend from the Jews in Thessalonica? Who were some of the leaders of the Jews in Thessalonica? Where they reading in Greek or Hebrew?

 

[Kenny]

Greetings. Didn't you say last time that it was the Jews of Berea that did that? Not to sound like a broken record but are there are any modern day Christians who descend from the Jews in Thessalonica? Who were some of the leaders of the Jews in Thessalonica? Where they reading in Greek or Hebrew?

I may have (in error). I checked this time. Forgive me if I said Berea last time. The point was simply everyone decides for themselves.

As far as "modern day who descended from the Jews ", it brought a chuckle for me. I can't even figure out who my great, great grandad is. - 2000 years is quite a journey along with world wars et al.

It was common, back then, to read the Septuagint. I would "assume" that some read Hebrew too. Greek was an international language and Latin was fairly common too.

Why do you ask?

 

[Redemptionsong]

It was and is a "Covenant of Faith", as keeping the Law is a large part of that faith per what is says in Torah and elsewhere throughout the entire Tanach.

That is not easy to answer in brief because the application of the Law is somewhat different between Jews and Christians-- and yet at the same time it isn't that different. I'll briefly explain.

Jesus synthecized the 613 Commandents found in Torah down to Two Commandments: love of God and love of neighbor. He was not the first Jew to do this as Hillel taught this when asked what Torah was really about: "I can answer this standing on one leg, namely to not do unto others that which you do not want done unto to yourself. The rest is commentary, now go study." Basically, that's the Golden Rule stated in an alternative way.

So, are we to live out of the "law of love"? Absolutely, and that is the gist also believed in within Judaism.

It's not about loving with our own love, but loving with God's love. The NT is clear in distinguishing between the righteousness of man, and the righteousness of God.

 

[pearl]

Where they reading in Greek or Hebrew?

If they were Hellenists they were reading and speaking Greek. The basic reason for the Septuagint.

 

[Link]

Given that many forests contains trees most normal people can easily see the difference between vegation found in a forest.

By like token a person who knows no Arabic could claim to be a Quranic scholar and literally contradict (أركان الإسلام) found in the Arabic text. They could also claim that they see the forest from the trees better than any Muslim. If I interpret the Quran in Hebrew differently than Muslims interepret it in Arabic am I authoratative to Muslims?

My point is the Tanakh emphasizes on special servants of God such Elijah, Moses, etc, they are emphasized with many and important characteristics and these chosen are the foundation of the religion. Also, from what I read I can see Mohammad (s) in the Tanakh.

 

[Link]

So I was right. This was your aim all along.

No worries mate. I am not gonna discuss this at all. Cheers.

I didn't bring up the Twelve and Prophecies of Mohammad (s) up, I'm emphasizing something very simple, chosen ones are leaders appointed by God and their leadership and chosen position is emphasized in the Tanakh. In fact, it does then more then anything else.

You brought up the issue of Shiism, to me Shiism is the true interpretation of religion so of course I'm going to see that in all holy books including the Gospels and Tanakh.

 

[firedragon]

I didn't bring up the Twelve and Prophecies of Mohammad (s) up, I'm emphasizing something very simple, chosen ones are leaders appointed by God and their leadership and chosen position is emphasized in the Tanakh. In fact, it does then more then anything else.

You brought up the issue of Shiism, to me Shiism is the true interpretation of religion so of course I'm going to see that in all holy books including the Gospels and Tanakh.

Sorry man. I am not interested in this topic at the moment.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

As far as "modern day who descended from the Jews ", it brought a chuckle for me. I can't even figure out who my great, great grandad is. - 2000 years is quite a journey along with world wars et al.

Below is a family tree of the Tzelahh family from Yemen that goes from Ya'aqov (Jacob) into the 1500's.

There are loads of family trees like in Torah based Jewish communities and it quite common to have at least more than 10 families in any ancient Jewish community who go back further than 2,000 years.

This is also how Torah based Jews confirm where information is coming from in order to test it.

It was common, back then, to read the Septuagint. I would "assume" that some read Hebrew too. Greek was an international language and Latin was fairly common too.

For Hellonized Jews it may have been common to read something in Greek translation. Yet, they were definately not reading from the Septuagint since we know that in the first century the term meant only the Torah (5 books of Moses) and nothing else. Sure afterwards various Christian groups started calling in anything in Greek Septuagint no matter where it came from. That was not the case for the majority of Jews. Twice Hebrew and then once in translation into Aramaic has been the rule.

Why do you ask?

Because, I have been finding it interesting that historically speaking the Jewish Christians are "claimed" to have followed jesus died as a distinct group within 2 generations of their start. I would expect a better track record if even a fraction of what they were doing was correct.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

My point is the Tanakh emphasizes on special servants of God such Elijah, Moses, etc, they are emphasized with many and important characteristics and these chosen are the foundation of the religion. Also, from what I read I can see Mohammad (s) in the Tanakh.

What you are stating are purely Quranic concepts and commentary. It is also not something you found when you sat down and the read the Tanakh in Hebrew, because as you admitted, you can't read Hebrew.

By like Token I would not attempt to try and tell you that the Quran states that Torah based Jews have been and will be perfectly okay and have preserved the (التوراة) correctly based on the following.

 

[Harel13]

Below is a family tree of the Tzelahh family from Yemen that goes from Ya'aqov (Jacob) into the 1500's.

I can't completely make out all of the names, so maybe you could tell me: Are there any Tanach-Era names here that don't appear in Tanach?

 

[Link]

What you are stating are purely Quranic concepts and commentary. It is also not something you found when you sat down and the read the Tanakh in Hebrew, because as you admitted, you can't read Hebrew.

By like Token I would not attempt to try and tell you that the Quran states that Torah based Jews have been and will be perfectly okay and have preserved the (التوراة) correctly based on the following.

View attachment 57222

This is not a specific nuance, it's something so vivid and clear and is the main theme of the tanakh.

 

[Link]

You don't need to know Arabic to know that chosen ones are emphasized in the Quran. It can't be hidden in any translation. It's everywhere in the Quran. The same is true of the Tanakh.

There are nuances which you need to get experts in the language to clarify and explain, but there are over all themes that are there in every translation and there is nothing to go against it. It's vivid and clear.

A person reading Quran translation can see Messengers are important for example.

There maybe horrible translations elsewhere for example, the translation of slaves being allowed, etc, but the over all themes can be detected in even these badly translated translations of Quran.