Why Torah based Jews would be unconvinced

[Kenny]

There are loads of family trees like in Torah based Jewish communities and it quite common to have at least more than 10 families in any ancient Jewish community who go back further than 2,000 years.

This is also how Torah based Jews confirm where information is coming from in order to test it.

Yes.. there are family trees. And there are many people who aren't Jews who can trace there lines back for millenniums. I'm not sure what your point is, are you saying that all Jews have family trees... are you saying there weren't Jews who believed in Yeshua Hamashiach?

For Hellonized Jews it may have been common to read something in Greek translation. Yet, they were definately not reading from the Septuagint since we know that in the first century the term meant only the Torah (5 books of Moses) and nothing else. Sure afterwards various Christian groups started calling in anything in Greek Septuagint no matter where it came from. That was not the case for the majority of Jews. Twice Hebrew and then once in translation into Aramaic has been the rule.

I disagree. We know that the Hebrew language was "rediscovered". Even as today, there are many Jews who are learning the language of their ancestry.

This week in history: Revival of the Hebrew language

The question would be when the Hebrew language was lost for the Jewish populace Aramaic was quite popular.

446 BC: Nehemiah translated the law from Hebrew into Aramaic
282 BC: The Septuagint is a translation of the entire Old Testament from Hebrew into Greek.

I think it is quite possible that anti-christians will deny the use of the Septuagint and its use but some information:

We also know that it was found preserved in the dead sea scrolls

The New Dead Sea Scroll Discoveries and the Septuagint

So, IMV, to much evidence to believe it wasn't used.

Because, I have been finding it interesting that historically speaking the Jewish Christians are "claimed" to have followed jesus died as a distinct group within 2 generations of their start. I would expect a better track record if even a fraction of what they were doing was correct.

I'm not sure. Not to mention that so much has been destroyed over the years through wars or just plain erosion. Christians were persecuted, Jews were persecuted (and, of course, the lunacy of Christians persecuting the Jews - a horrible part of our past)

Why is your line so important to you today? (What is your history line?)

In my view, the most important purpose was to make sure the Yeshua Hamashiach was in direct line with King David. After that, the born again believer is simply part of the tribe of Judah by covenant. From that point, we become direct line to God as Adam was.

 

[PruePhillip]

Have you ever checked a Jewish translation? I am not saying translations are perfect, but just out of curiosity. Have you ever checked out a Jewish translation?

Now we can talk about 'Christology' but there must be a name for what
some Jews do to their own scripture - let's call it Jewology.

And here is a bit of Christology - God gave the Jews the sacrifices, the
temple, the Ark of the Covenant, the House of Levi and the land of
Israel.- as His 'Chosen People.'
And God took all that away. And that was only the beginning of the
Jewish sorrows. Christians believe, as Jesus himself said, 'you knew not
the time of your visitation.' Many many places in the Tanakh it speaks of
God's word going to the Gentiles. How do Jews put all this into their
belief they have the truth, and the Gentiles do not?

 

[dybmh]

@Redemptionsong ,

The problem with the new covenant offered by Jesus in the NT is that the commodity ( salvation ) is misrepresented. Jesus said that he is the way ( singular) John 14:6. But Moses said there are multiple ways ( plural ) Deuteronomy 5:33. Because of this, the contract is null and void.

 

[Link]

@Redemptionsong ,

The problem with the new covenant offered by Jesus in the NT is that the commodity ( salvation ) is misrepresented. Jesus said that he is the way ( singular) John 14:6. But Moses said there are multiple ways ( plural ) Deuteronomy 5:33. Because of this, the contract is null and void.

The Quran does the same as the Bible here. It emphasizes on one path and multiple paths. There is the straight path which is to follow God through his chosen leader of the time and light of the world, and then are many instances of that path through out time.

 

[PruePhillip]

...

Quote:
If you haven't read the Talmud in Hebrew/Aramic then you haven't really read it.

This is a false statement.
And it reminds me of Arabs who say you must learn Arabic to read the real Koran.

Furthermore, early Genesis accounts were written when there was no Hebrew -
more a Proto Arabic, Proto Saharan. Abraham probably spoke (and wrote) in the
the Nilo-Saharan languages - Sara and Horo, both connected to Abraham's
Nilo-Saharan ancestors who worshiped Ra and Horus.

 

[PruePhillip]

@Redemptionsong ,

The problem with the new covenant offered by Jesus in the NT is that the commodity ( salvation ) is misrepresented. Jesus said that he is the way ( singular) John 14:6. But Moses said there are multiple ways ( plural ) Deuteronomy 5:33. Because of this, the contract is null and void.

Did Moses really say there are multiple ways? Any deviation from the Commandments
in Exodus was met with death.

 

[dybmh]

Did Moses really say there are multiple ways? Any deviation from the Commandments
in Exodus was met with death.

That's a good point.

The verse I brought does indeed say ways or pathes plural. And in the story of the Exodus, Aaron's son's do get zapped ( for lack of a better word ) for doing the wrong thing. OTOH, Aaron is spared in spite of his actions leading up to the worship of the golden calf. It seems to me that there is a case-by-case assessment happening in the story. It's not black and white as one would expect from reading John 14:6. Jesus makes it seem black and white; but if it's actually shades of grey, not black and white, that still seems like a misrepresentation of the salvation offered in that it doesn't match what is described in the Torah.

 

[firedragon]

What you are stating are purely Quranic concepts and commentary. It is also not something you found when you sat down and the read the Tanakh in Hebrew, because as you admitted, you can't read Hebrew.

By like Token I would not attempt to try and tell you that the Quran states that Torah based Jews have been and will be perfectly okay and have preserved the (التوراة) correctly based on the following.

View attachment 57222

Where in that verse does it say Jew or Torah? I cant understand.

 

[firedragon]

Yes.. there are family trees. And there are many people who aren't Jews who can trace there lines back for millenniums. I'm not sure what your point is, are you saying that all Jews have family trees... are you saying there weren't Jews who believed in Yeshua Hamashiach?



I disagree. We know that the Hebrew language was "rediscovered". Even as today, there are many Jews who are learning the language of their ancestry.

This week in history: Revival of the Hebrew language

The question would be when the Hebrew language was lost for the Jewish populace Aramaic was quite popular.

446 BC: Nehemiah translated the law from Hebrew into Aramaic
282 BC: The Septuagint is a translation of the entire Old Testament from Hebrew into Greek.

I think it is quite possible that anti-christians will deny the use of the Septuagint and its use but some information:


View attachment 57228

We also know that it was found preserved in the dead sea scrolls

The New Dead Sea Scroll Discoveries and the Septuagint

So, IMV, to much evidence to believe it wasn't used.


I'm not sure. Not to mention that so much has been destroyed over the years through wars or just plain erosion. Christians were persecuted, Jews were persecuted (and, of course, the lunacy of Christians persecuting the Jews - a horrible part of our past)

Why is your line so important to you today? (What is your history line?)

In my view, the most important purpose was to make sure the Yeshua Hamashiach was in direct line with King David. After that, the born again believer is simply part of the tribe of Judah by covenant. From that point, we become direct line to God as Adam was.

This chart of yours has no basis. Its just an arbitrary filling of data.

Is there any document dating to the 1st century stating the words you have stated in the 3rd column? Septuagint, Masoretic.

 

[firedragon]

Now we can talk about 'Christology' but there must be a name for what
some Jews do to their own scripture - let's call it Jewology.

And here is a bit of Christology - God gave the Jews the sacrifices, the
temple, the Ark of the Covenant, the House of Levi and the land of
Israel.- as His 'Chosen People.'
And God took all that away. And that was only the beginning of the
Jewish sorrows. Christians believe, as Jesus himself said, 'you knew not
the time of your visitation.' Many many places in the Tanakh it speaks of
God's word going to the Gentiles. How do Jews put all this into their
belief they have the truth, and the Gentiles do not?

Question: Where are you going?
Answer: I have coconuts in the bag.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I can't completely make out all of the names, so maybe you could tell me: Are there any Tanach-Era names here that don't appear in Tanach?

Below are the names transliterated into English. In any place where some of the name is not clear to me I put (?). So, this is the family tree of (ישועה בן אברון) Yeshuah ben-Aharon from the year 1503 in Yemen. When I get some free time I will have to pull out Divrei HaYamim and compare.

Yeshuah ben-Aharon ben-Amram ben-Yoseph ben-Amram ben-Orer ben-Amram ben-Sa’adyah ben-Avigar ben-Shalom ben-Orer ben-Zecharyah ben-Ya’aqov ben-Yoseph ben-Shemaryah ben-El’ansi ben-Yoseph ben-Qatzs(?)I ben-Ya’aqov ben-Maimon ben-Yepheth ben-Yeshayah ben-Yepheth ben-Mosheh ben-Avigar ben-Ya’aqov ben-Eli ben-Payas ben-Yair ben-Yehhezqel ben-Mahran ben-Ezra ben-Daniel ben-Yehonatan ben-Elishuv ben-Qarmiel ben-Michah ben-Yirmeyah ben-Am(?)rav ben-Zarahh ben-Itan ben-Ha(?) ben-Azaryah ben-Yerahhmiel ben-Kaqlun ben-Aminadav ben-Nahhshon ben-Shlomo ben-Boaz ben-Oved ben-Eliav ben-Avinadav ben-Yoav ben-Tishal ben-Yathal ben-Shuv ben-Arnon ben-Ephrath ben-Hhur ben-Uri ben-Betzael ben-Shaguv ben-Yair ben-Machir ben-Kam ben-Yamin ben-Sasson ben Shamai ben-Amnon ben-Daniel ben-Shaphtyah ben- ben-Natan ben-Amiel ben-Rahhavam ben-Yehoyahhim ben-Yechanyah ben-Shaaletel ben-Shaphat ben-Qanas(?) ben-Atheniel ben-Tzadoq ben-Pinhhas ben-Ashriel ben-Awuthi ben-Amihud Aminadav ben-Amri ben beni-Man beni-Peretz ben-Yehudah ben-Ya’aqov​

 

[Ehav4Ever]

You don't need to know Arabic to know that chosen ones are emphasized in the Quran. It can't be hidden in any translation. It's everywhere in the Quran.

In that case any conclusion I personally come to about the text of the Quran is correct; including translations I make for myself.

Okay, so the same rules of thermodynamics, alchemy, and bread making that has allowed you to be an expert in the Hebrew Tanakh when you don't know Hebrew have allowed me to be an expert in the Arabic Quran even though I don't know Arabic.

Thus, in conclusion the Arabic Quran supports everything I wrote in this thread before this point, including the language issues mentioned before.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Yes.. there are family trees. And there are many people who aren't Jews who can trace there lines back for millenniums. I'm not sure what your point is, are you saying that all Jews have family trees... are you saying there weren't Jews who believed in Yeshua Hamashiach?



I disagree. We know that the Hebrew language was "rediscovered". Even as today, there are many Jews who are learning the language of their ancestry.

This week in history: Revival of the Hebrew language

The question would be when the Hebrew language was lost for the Jewish populace Aramaic was quite popular.

446 BC: Nehemiah translated the law from Hebrew into Aramaic
282 BC: The Septuagint is a translation of the entire Old Testament from Hebrew into Greek.

I think it is quite possible that anti-christians will deny the use of the Septuagint and its use but some information:


View attachment 57228

We also know that it was found preserved in the dead sea scrolls

The New Dead Sea Scroll Discoveries and the Septuagint

So, IMV, to much evidence to believe it wasn't used.


I'm not sure. Not to mention that so much has been destroyed over the years through wars or just plain erosion. Christians were persecuted, Jews were persecuted (and, of course, the lunacy of Christians persecuting the Jews - a horrible part of our past)

Why is your line so important to you today? (What is your history line?)

In my view, the most important purpose was to make sure the Yeshua Hamashiach was in direct line with King David. After that, the born again believer is simply part of the tribe of Judah by covenant. From that point, we become direct line to God as Adam was.

Wow, Ken! That really answered what I was talking about.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Quote:
If you haven't read the Talmud in Hebrew/Aramic then you haven't really read it.

This is a false statement.
And it reminds me of Arabs who say you must learn Arabic to read the real Koran.

So, in other words if a non-American citizen who doesn't know English and doesn't know how the American legal system works goes into a American court of law tells everyone in the court he knows the constitution better than all American judges, American lawyers, and law professors because he [the non-American citzen] read snipets of a Chinese translation of the American Constitution - the American judge will tell him, "Makes sense to me! Case closed!"

Right?

Maybe, just maybe. I should start thread where I jump around a Hebrew translation of the New Testament and I take snipets of statements made by the New Testament authors originally in Greek and I interpret them using standards, hermeneutics, and philosophy that are completely foreign to the New Testament.

Wait, I did that already and when I did it various Christians on this forum told me that I was taking the text out of context.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Where in that verse does it say Jew or Torah? I cant understand.

That is exactly my point. I am using the same logic that Link provided for his claims earlier. I.e. I am now a Quranic scholars w/o knowledge of Arabic and without any connection to the scholarshop behind the original text. Accoridng to Link I can literally interpret it any way I want while ignoring what Muslims say about it.

If I were take on this concept I would very dishonest with myself and with reality. That is point I am making.

 

[firedragon]

That is exactly my point. I am using the same logic that Link provided for his claims earlier. I.e. I am now a Quranic scholars w/o knowledge of Arabic and without any connection to the scholarshop behind the original text. Accoridng to Link I can literally interpret it any way I want while ignoring what Muslims say about it.

If I were take on this concept I would very dishonest with myself and with reality. That is point I am making.

This thread has gone into about 10 tracks so I am getting confused with your examples. I think some tea would do.

 

[PruePhillip]

So, in other words...

Matt 23:1 is ambiguous. Jesus is making what appears, to my translation, a contradiction
1 - do what they tell you
2 - don't do what they tell you

Another curious one is 'I don't judge, but my judgemen is true.' This is easier for me -
he didn't pre-judge their appointment before the great Judge, but he judged wha is right
and wrong.

So there is something to be reckoned with Matt 23:1

I suggest the people needed to be mindful of the moral law which the Pharisees, Saducees
and Essenes taught - but to be wary of anything else. Jesus ended the Ordinances and the
Judgements (ritual and legal stuff,) but he doubled down on the moral commandments.

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

This thread has gone into about 10 tracks so I am getting confused with your examples. I think some tea would do.

I agree it. I feel that way when these kind of discussions start up. That is actually one of the points I am making about how it goes off the rails. The worst part is the whole, "Let's tell the Jews that we know there stuff better than them," has been off the rails for more than 1,700 years. Literally, you can find the same arguements used by missionaries who focus on Jews going back that far.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Matt 23:1 is ambiguous.

No, no, no. My interpretation is correct and the real intent of the NT author of Matthew. I know better because I am an expert. Because I say so.

 

[firedragon]

I agree it. I feel that way when these kind of discussions start up. That is actually one of the points I am making about how it goes off the rails. The worst part is the whole, "Let's tell the Jews that we know there stuff better than them," has been off the rails for more than 1,700 years. Literally, you can find the same arguements used by missionaries who focus on Jews going back that far.

You mean the church fathers?