Why Torah based Jews would be unconvinced

[Link]

According to my belief, belief in past chosen ones sent by God is useless without belief in the current chosen ones of our time, and particularly belief in the leader of our time. I don't know the original languages, but I see that there is emphasis on Seth being set by God for example.

People who rely on clergy to replace the leaders chosen by God are the reason there are divisions in religion and why humanity does not unite on the truth and does not come to the leader appointed by God.

 

[Rival]

, but I see that there is emphasis on Seth being set by God for example.

I'm not sure where you're seeing emphasis on Seth. Could you please explain?

 

[PruePhillip]

Some of us [Jews] say that if you, as Christians, beleived what you wrote that you would be happy being Christians and just ignore us Jews alltogether. Some others say that if you, as Christians, really beleived that you would would want to distance yourself as far as possible from Jews as to not share our fate.

Love to go to Israel. It's on my bucket list, for three reasons
1 - religious interest
2 - history
3 - current affairs

The way you have written this is obscure to me.
Jacob in Genesis said to Judah there would be a Hebrew nation but
it would end with the Messiah. Isaiah and Ezekiel spoke of a second
return of the Jews to Israel. And Jesus said Jerusalem would be
trampled under the feet of the Gentiles until the Gentile's time is
fulfilled. This is how I interpret the story of the wandering Jew.

nb I am part Jewish also.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Love to go to Israel. It's on my bucket list, for three reasons
1 - religious interest
2 - history
3 - current affairs

I have been living here for 15 years. I love it here.

The way you have written this is obscure to me.
Jacob in Genesis said to Judah there would be a Hebrew nation but
it would end with the Messiah. Isaiah and Ezekiel spoke of a second
return of the Jews to Israel.

Yeah, FYI the Hebrew text doesn't state, "there would be a Hebrew nation but it would end with the Messiah." That must be something specific to Christian bibles in English. The return of the Jewish peopel after a long exile is expressed in the Torah and many parts of the Nach part of the Tanakh.

And Jesus said Jerusalem would be trampled under the feet of the Gentiles until the Gentile's time is fulfilled. This is how I interpret the story of the wandering Jew.

Yeah, what the NT authors claimed Jesus said isn't relevant to Torah based Jews. For more details on that you can the following threads where the "why" on that was explained.

Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity

nb I am part Jewish also.

Yes, I know. I have a good memory. So, you can partially relate to what I wrote in the OP.

 

[rational experiences]

"If that is what you consider to be true then why does it matter to you what we Jews say?" That is the question I often want to ask when threads are started as if they are asking questions to Jews when instead what is being posted is a statement or manifesto. That is not to say that some people aren't actually asking honest questions. I am speaking about a minority of situations where someone really isn't.

Just for the sake of brevity there is a real simply way to understand why Torah based Jews don't buy into Christian theology.

1. The same arguements presented today from various sects of Christianity have been presented for the last 1,500 years.
2. Literally, there is nothing new about the arguements - and the only time that Christianity recieved a positive response to it was when Jews were being tortured and threatened into becoming Christian. (Inquisitions and such)
3. You're not the first Christian in the last 2,000 years to take information written by Jews and say how wrong we are - we got it, thank you for your concern.
4. What it really boils down to is that a Christian bible is not scripture for Torah based Jews.
   • Literally, we are not reading the same texts. Your translations were crafted by Christian translators with Christian agendas.
   • Jews who know Hebrew/Aramaic can read the originals w/o having to deal that issue. You won't convince us with anything less than proof from the originals.
   • Consider statistically how few Hebrew/Aramaic fluent Torah based Jews willingly bacame Christian in the last year. The last ten years. The last several hundred years, etc.
5. Whether you like it or not the Hebrew/Aramaic Tanakh is the only authorative version for Torah based Jews.
   • Even translations made by other Jews are not "authoratitive." especially since there are literally a large enouch set of Jews in the world who understand Hebrew and Aramaic at a high level.
6. The Talmud won't help you prove Jesus to us, so just leave the Talmud to the professionals - Torah based Jews.
   • For every statement in English translations of the Talmud you think supports Christian theology there are 20 in the actual texts that contradict it from some of the very same rabbis you try to quote.
7. Further, to the Talmud point. If you haven't read the Talmud in Hebrew/Aramic then you haven't really read it.
   • Here is something that may shock you. Certain copies of the Talmud were edited and written in Hebrew/Aramaic code due to.......drum roll......the reality that various European Christian authorities had a thing for censoring and(or) burning anything they suspected gave a bad light to Jesus.
   • Even Jews who don't know Hebrew/Aramaic don't really know the Talmud. Thus, when Jews want to really learn Talmud they have to learn how to read and understand Hebrew and Aramaic from Jewish teachers who are fluent in it.
8. If what you beleive as a Christian makes you happy then you keep it. It is yours, enjoy. You won't get any arguement from most Jews about what you personally beleive. We are not here to try to convince you to take on our views.

I post this out of concern for the time and effort that someone may decide to put into the, "The Jews are so wrong and I have a clever new arguement or angle to prove it." In reality, you don't. You really don't.

First of all the bible isn't the science argument.

The building human science temples machines transmitters pyramid. The technology. That forcibly changed gods mass earth heavens gases.

The written story was life attacked sacrifice. Which states all humans anywhere on earth all nations got attacked. Not just one culture.

So when life got attacked again by the same cause temple pyramid science a new rewrite existed as proof in history. Bible the historic document.

Plus science proof of future earth attack predictions by 0 cosmic mass shifts earth in attack.

To own historic taught documentation it was real.

Remember all nations were harmed as the UFO circulated into every country on earth.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

First of all the bible isn't the science argument.

The building human science temples machines transmitters pyramid. The technology. That forcibly changed gods mass earth heavens gases.

The written story was life attacked sacrifice. Which states all humans anywhere on earth all nations got attacked. Not just one culture.

So when life got attacked again by the same cause temple pyramid science a new rewrite existed as proof in history. Bible the historic document.

Plus science proof of future earth attack predictions by 0 cosmic mass shifts earth in attack.

To own historic taught documentation it was real.

Remember all nations were harmed as the UFO circulated into every country on earth.

Okay. Thanks for the comment.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

A people determined to be righteous by their own efforts will fail - time and time again!

Now, here is something we agree on. This reality has helped Torah based Jews survive the last 2,000 years.

 

[firedragon]

The way you have written this is obscure to me.
Jacob in Genesis said to Judah there would be a Hebrew nation but
it would end with the Messiah.

Which verse is that?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Which verse is that?

Most likely he is claiming it is the meaning of Genesis 49:8-12 in the Christian bible.

 

[firedragon]

Most likely he is claiming it is the meaning of Genesis 49:8-12 in the Christian bible.

Ah. Shiloh. I just got it. This is unbelievable apologetics.

But I will stay away. Thanks.

 

[Redemptionsong]

You're making the mistake of believing these were educated people. Most if not all of Jesus' followers were unschooled people from the Galilee. This group were essentially 'country people' who were not well-versed in the intricacies of the Torah and Prophets, and thus were apt to be taken in by charlatans.

But, you will also know, if you've read the Gospels, that Jesus preached in the heart of Jerusalem, and that the multitudes that followed Jesus drew interest from the religious authorities. People were claiming that Jesus was a prophet, even the Christ. This required confirmation by the competent authorities, which is why Jesus was constantly questioned and challenged.

It is also one of the reasons that he was put to death.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Ah. Shiloh. I just got it. This is unbelievable apologetics.

But I will stay away. Thanks.

You're lucky that you can stay away.

 

[firedragon]

You're lucky that you can stay away.

True. When experts are at work, layman must watch and learn, so that's what I shall do.

 

[PruePhillip]

Which verse is that?

Gen 49:10.
Jacob is just another Semite family in Egypt. In blessing his sons he said something
prophetic about Judah
The scepter (monarchy) shall not pass from Judah (Judaean kings) nor a law-giver
between his feet (protector of the law) U.N.T.I.L. Shiloh comes (Messianic figure, or
'he to whom all things belongs) and the obedience of the nations shall be his (the
world, the gentiles.)

 

[firedragon]

Gen 49:10.
Jacob is just another Semite family in Egypt. In blessing his sons he said something
prophetic about Judah
The scepter (monarchy) shall not pass from Judah (Judaean kings) nor a law-giver
between his feet (protector of the law) U.N.T.I.L. Shiloh comes (Messianic figure, or
'he to whom all things belongs) and the obedience of the nations shall be his (the
world, the gentiles.)

Which translation is that?

 

[Segev Moran]

"If that is what you consider to be true then why does it matter to you what we Jews say?" That is the question I often want to ask when threads are started as if they are asking questions to Jews when instead what is being posted is a statement or manifesto. That is not to say that some people aren't actually asking honest questions. I am speaking about a minority of situations where someone really isn't.

Most Jews don't really bother convincing others to be a Jew.
Those who do, Usually do it from the write motives but in the wrong way

1. You're not the first Christian in the last 2,000 years to take information written by Jews and say how wrong we are - we got it, thank you for your concern.

Which is weird, as Jesus clearly preached that the OT is truth and should never be changed.

1. What it really boils down to is that a Christian bible is not scripture for Torah based Jews.
   • Literally, we are not reading the same texts. Your translations were crafted by Christian translators with Christian agendas.
   • Jews who know Hebrew/Aramaic can read the originals w/o having to deal that issue. You won't convince us with anything less than proof from the originals.
   • Consider statistically how few Hebrew/Aramaic fluent Torah based Jews willingly bacame Christian in the last year. The last ten years. The last several hundred years, etc.

Many times the translations are wrong.
Indeed, if something cannot be presented in the OT, it is not accepted in the Jewish techings.
[/QUOTE]

1. Whether you like it or not the Hebrew/Aramaic Tanakh is the only authorative version for Torah based Jews.
   • Even translations made by other Jews are not "authoratitive." especially since there are literally a large enouch set of Jews in the world who understand Hebrew and Aramaic at a high level.

[/QUOTE]
Yep. Every claim must be explained and referenced in the OT.
/QUOTE]

1. The Talmud won't help you prove Jesus to us, so just leave the Talmud to the professionals - Torah based Jews.
   • For every statement in English translations of the Talmud you think supports Christian theology there are 20 in the actual texts that contradict it from some of the very same rabbis you try to quote.

[/QUOTE]
The Talmud is for everyone. There are many non Jewish people who learn the Talmud.

1. Further, to the Talmud point. If you haven't read the Talmud in Hebrew/Aramic then you haven't really read it.
   • Here is something that may shock you. Certain copies of the Talmud were edited and written in Hebrew/Aramaic code due to.......drum roll......the reality that various European Christian authorities had a thing for censoring and(or) burning anything they suspected gave a bad light to Jesus.
   • Even Jews who don't know Hebrew/Aramaic don't really know the Talmud. Thus, when Jews want to really learn Talmud they have to learn how to read and understand Hebrew and Aramaic from Jewish teachers who are fluent in it.

Also, There is no real reason to learn the Talmud without learning the OT (the Hebrew one) first.

1. If what you beleive as a Christian makes you happy then you keep it. It is yours, enjoy. You won't get any arguement from most Jews about what you personally beleive. We are not here to try to convince you to take on our views.

Indeed.

I post this out of concern for the time and effort that someone may decide to put into the, "The Jews are so wrong and I have a clever new arguement or angle to prove it." In reality, you don't. You really don't.

I think any one who have an argument should raise it.
The question is if one is actually willing to hear the other side.

 

[firedragon]

Also, There is no real reason to learn the Talmud without learning the OT (the Hebrew one) first.

Do you know Hebrew well?

 

[Link]

I'm not sure where you're seeing emphasis on Seth. Could you please explain?

The Torah begins with after the story of Adam with emphasizing Adam who was the image of God was succeeded by someone set by God, hence called Seth, which came from the words "set by God".

This leads to Enoch and Noah, and you see the importance of successorship with regards to leadership appointed by God. When we get to Abraham, we see people like Jacob and Joseph are special, and not all this children are equal. There are special chosen ones from his offspring.

They succeed his position in leading humanity and believers upon the straight path.

The very start the name "Seth" is emphasized to be set by God and hence this is a contrast to the corrupt leaders who named themselves with the name of God from people of Noah. Samuel means name of God and hence we see there is a contrast that God can set up people who are his name but no one else allowed to claim this position. Leadership is emphasized to be from God while leadership not from God leads astray.

 

[PruePhillip]

Which translation is that?

Broadly speaking, all of the ones in Bible Hub.

And interlinear concurs
Genesis 49:10 Interlinear: The sceptre turneth not aside from Judah, And a lawgiver from between his feet, Till his Seed come; And his is the obedience of peoples. (biblehub.com)

 

[firedragon]

Broadly speaking, all of the ones in Bible Hub.

And interlinear concurs
Genesis 49:10 Interlinear: The sceptre turneth not aside from Judah, And a lawgiver from between his feet, Till his Seed come; And his is the obedience of peoples. (biblehub.com)

Have you ever checked a Jewish translation? I am not saying translations are perfect, but just out of curiosity. Have you ever checked out a Jewish translation?