Islam and Judaism are refuted.

[sooda]

Who wrote what when is not the question. The passage (Isaiah 53:5) is quoted as pertaining to Messiah in Midrash Konen, Beit ha Mikdash 2:29-30, a post-11th century Jewish writing.

11th century AD?

 

[Wandering Monk]

11th century AD?

Yes.

 

[sooda]

Yes.

So who claimed in the 11th century AD that the Suffering servant was about Jesus???

 

[Wandering Monk]

So who claimed in the 11th century AD that the Suffering servant was about Jesus???

If you were paying attention, I was responding to your post that Christians take Isaiah 53 out of context. Some Jews do as well. That is all. Move along.

 

[sooda]

If you were paying attention, I was responding to your post that Christians take Isaiah 53 out of context. Some Jews do as well. That is all. Move along.

Messiah in Midrash Konen claims Jesus had to suffer for Israel's sins. Judah despised Israel because they were more successful and more prosperous than Judah.


Missionary Misuse of Jewish Sources on Isaiah 53, Midrash ...
https://nojesus4jews.weebly.com/sophiees-blog/missionary-misuse-of-jewish-sources-on...
Mar 30, 2016 · Midrash Konen post dates Rashi who supposedly changed the subject of Isaiah 53 from the messiah to Israel (again, someone neglected to give this information to the author of Midrash Konen, which is also known as HaShem be-Ḥokhmah Yasad Areẓ). This is a very stylized myth -- allegory -- not at all literal.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Leviticus and Deuteronomy were written before
Genesis and Exodus...

They were Canaanites.. See Ugaritic Tablets that date 1000 years BEFORE the Babylonian exile. North coast Canaanites in Syria. They have found thousands of the tablets at Ras Shamra.. Thousands more at Dilmun (Bahrain) and more from Sumer and Babylon.

You didn't address my comment. You're making it seem as though they based the books directly on manuscripts dated 1000 years before the Babylonian exile. That would require substantial change. Are you serious? Like I said, do you really think they made up these stories?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

A promise that will be fulfilled.

And I'll tell you what: someday, if ever, the Baha'i'ullah does return and fulfill these prophecies, THEN he can apply for the position of Messiah.

 

[dybmh]

According to tradition first appearing in the Talmud, a compendium of Jewish law redacted in Babylonia at about 500 CE (Bava Batra 14b-15a), the Book of Isaiah was written by King Hezekiah, who reigned from 715 to 686 BCE, and his aides.
Reference: www.haaretz.com/jewish/who-really-wrote-the-book-of-isaiah-1.5431430

Redacted means written. You are still isolating Judaism to the written law. And, Sooda, that's fine. But it doesn't mean that Judaism didn't exist before the redacted version of the law. The fact that there is a "redacted" version strongly implies that there was a version predating this. The un-redacted version. The version that pre-dates the written law.

But besides that.

The Yeshiva of Shem and the Yeshiva of Ever predates that. Look it up if you don't believe me. If you need me to find references in Talmud and Midrash to support this, I will.

 

[dybmh]

And I'll tell you what: someday, if ever, the Baha'i'ullah does return and fulfill these prophecies, THEN he can apply for the position of Messiah.

... apply for the position along with a Conversion to Judaism ...

 

[Wandering Monk]

Redacted means written. You are still isolating Judaism to the written law. And, Sooda, that's fine. But it doesn't mean that Judaism didn't exist before the redacted version of the law. The fact that there is a "redacted" version strongly implies that there was a version predating this. The un-redacted version. The version that pre-dates the written law.

But besides that.

The Yeshiva of Shem and the Yeshiva of Ever predates that. Look it up if you don't believe me. If you need me to find references in Talmud and Midrash to support this, I will.

Projection of the rabbis onto ancient history.

 

[dybmh]

Projection of the rabbis onto ancient history.

It could be.

And Sooda could be projecting Judaism on the Ugarite tablets.

That's the point I'm making.

 

[YoursTrue]

If you read the entire book of Isaiah, it is very clear that the Servant is Israel. It is repeated many times. In order to make the Servant into the Messiah in Isaiah 53, Christians have to pull the chapter out of the context of the book.



I don't know how peace will be achieved. Honestly. I suspect that it will happen at the Messiah's hand, not by us Jews or the state of Israel. If it happens before the coming of the Messiah, it will be due to a gradual change and growth in the morality of mankind.

Will this be assisted by Jews? I can't see how it would not be. We are far more than the State of Israel, and are extremely concerned with the repair of the World. And Israel will not always be what it is today. MOST Jews in the world do not approve of what is going on. Zionism, unequivocally yes. But the treatment of the Palestinians, assuredly no.

Another question is, and many Jews may agree, would this peace be assisted by non-Jews as well? Interesting question, no? As you are well aware, the present-day nation of Israel is fractioned into sects, much political dissent and arguing among the leaders, and non-Jews and ethnically Jewish atheists living there. The whole world is suffering. In many cases now the world has more tragic events, both in groups and singularly than what the present-day nation of Israel is undergoing as a nation under threat from its enemies. Growth in the "morality of mankind"?? And what types of morality are you speaking of? It seems to me, judging simply by what's going on here in the United States, morals are descending.

 

[YoursTrue]

It could be.

And Sooda could be projecting Judaism on the Ugarite tablets.

That's the point I'm making.

Very good point, dybmh. Redacted absolutely implies something very, very (and I mean very) similar occurred before the "redaction."

 

[YoursTrue]

I think the key to the Message given by Baha'u'llah is that all the Messengers or Prophets from G_d have given a Message from the same source. Our One God.

Thus if we apply this to the Message given by Jesus we can see that the Messenger is born and annointed by the Holy Spirit, they become 'Christ'. The Message of Christ and the person of Jesus becomes the name to which we can find God. Thus Christ (Annointed One) is also the Message of Abraham, of Moses, of Krishna, of Zoroaster and Muhammad to put names to the Message given of Christ in the past. The Word of 'Christ' is the First and is the last, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. It is the Message of the Father, Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

Let's go back to basics again. Do you believe God lies about what happens to the soul when the person dies?

 

[YoursTrue]

Messiah in Midrash Konen claims Jesus had to suffer for Israel's sins. Judah despised Israel because they were more successful and more prosperous than Judah.


Missionary Misuse of Jewish Sources on Isaiah 53, Midrash ...
https://nojesus4jews.weebly.com/sophiees-blog/missionary-misuse-of-jewish-sources-on...
Mar 30, 2016 · Midrash Konen post dates Rashi who supposedly changed the subject of Isaiah 53 from the messiah to Israel (again, someone neglected to give this information to the author of Midrash Konen, which is also known as HaShem be-Ḥokhmah Yasad Areẓ). This is a very stylized myth -- allegory -- not at all literal.

Well, perhaps we can look again at the destruction of the second temple in Jerusalem in the 1st century C.E. No more sacrifices. Quite a coincidence, wasn't it? That is assuming you believe that Jesus lived and was put to death, and then a couple of decades later the Temple was torn down. Hmm. And the wall remains as a reminder somehow, lest people forget, or think maybe it just never really existed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And I'll tell you what: someday, if ever, the Baha'u'llah does return and fulfill these prophecies, THEN he can apply for the position of Messiah.

What I see you have not considered, is that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled the promises and that we do not accept and implement them immediately, is irrelevant to the fulfillment. The promise is fulfilled and being pursued by many millions. Thus what we all now do with our free will choice, is how it will unfold.

Jesus the Christ nor Muhammad can not be shown to fulfill many prophecies of the Tanakh, but Jesus the Christ and Muhammad also fulfill many biblical prophecies.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Let's go back to basics again. Do you believe God lies about what happens to the soul when the person dies?

That is a very loaded question.

I can inform you what Baha'u'llah has revealed on this topic, or offer a view as to what I see the Bible says on this subject, from the view taken from those writings.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

In 1947 the Isaiah scroll was found in the Dead Sea, one found out that it was written in the 2nd century B.C. and therefore it is the oldest preserved manuscript of a whole book of the Bible. It was also found that the found Isaiah scroll is completely identical with the book of Isaiah in the Bible. This proves firstly that at least the book of Isaiah was not falsified, secondly that Jesus is the true God and the Father of eternity(Isaiah 9:6) and thirdly that Jesus was executed to die for the sins of mankind(Isaiah 53).

1947 was the year in which the Islam and the Judaism were refuted.

Here can you read the Isaiah scroll

Famous mistranslation.


9:6


1. The word "Yuladh" was mistranslated in the Christian bible as "will be born" when it should be "is born". Perfect tense. Something that already happened. If you want check Genesis 4:26. Same word. Different tense. So that's an intentional mistranslation.


2. The word "Vayyikra" has also been mistranslated as "will be called" instead of the correct translation which should be "called". If you want check Genesis 1:5 where its translated as 'already happened'. Another one.


Read Genesis 4:26 for reference. Same words Yulad and Vayyikra or "Yulad ben Vayyikra" has been translated as "Was born a son and he named" in the past tense.


Strange that these can be translated wrong only in Isaiah 9:6 to make it LOOK LIKE a prophecy so they intentionally turned it into future tense. And now you have based your whole post about two theologies being refuted by this particular scripture that your piers have intentionally mistranslated to mislead people like you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Another question is, and many Jews may agree, would this peace be assisted by non-Jews as well? Interesting question, no? As you are well aware, the present-day nation of Israel is fractioned into sects, much political dissent and arguing among the leaders, and non-Jews and ethnically Jewish atheists living there. The whole world is suffering. In many cases now the world has more tragic events, both in groups and singularly than what the present-day nation of Israel is undergoing as a nation under threat from its enemies. Growth in the "morality of mankind"?? And what types of morality are you speaking of? It seems to me, judging simply by what's going on here in the United States, morals are descending.

I'm sure the peace will be assisted by people all over the world -- it would have to be.

I disagree that the world has more tragedy today. It has considerably less due to technology and medical science.

Growth in morality as in a broad consensus that you don't kill people for personal gain, nor do you coerce, etc.

I think that some morals are going down, such as care and well being of children (adults are putting our own interests first, such as our sexual desires). But in many other ways, morals are going up. In many places of the world, things like rape are finally being taken seriously. We are making a dent into such things as pedophilia. We are no longer turning a blind eye to domestic violence. Child marriage seems to be the next thing on the list to make unacceptable.

It's not that these things don't still go on. It's that they are broadly and sincerely condemned and we have put some teeth into their consequences.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What I see you have not considered, is that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled the promises

I sincerely examined the evidence, and quite honestly found the claim to be outright nonsense.

There is no reason for us to continue this discussion; we are simply repeating ourselves.

Shalom

Indigo Child