Islam and Judaism are refuted.

[IndigoChild5559]

Problem is that Moses, if he existed at all, never wrote anything. The Pentateuch was writing during and after the Babylonian exile. the Hebrews were just Canaanites who borrowed myths and folklore from the cultures around them.

Do you think that what was written in Babylon was made up out of whole cloth???

 

[sooda]

Do you think that what was written in Babylon was made up out of whole cloth???

Leviticus and Deuteronomy were written before
Genesis and Exodus...

They were Canaanites.. See Ugaritic Tablets that date 1000 years BEFORE the Babylonian exile. North coast Canaanites in Syria. They have found thousands of the tablets at Ras Shamra.. Thousands more at Dilmun (Bahrain) and more from Sumer and Babylon.

 

[dybmh]

Leviticus and Deuteronomy were written before
Genesis and Exodus...

They were Canaanites.. See Ugaritic Tablets that date 1000 years BEFORE the Babylonian exile. North coast Canaanites in Syria. They have found thousands of the tablets at Ras Shamra.. Thousands more at Dilmun (Bahrain) and more from Sumer and Babylon.

All it shows ( so far ) is that the Jewish people and the Canaanites had many similarities. Your conclusion that the Jewish religion and language is borrowed from Canaanites is a result of your bias.

It is just as likely that the Canaanites were borrowing from Judaism.

 

[sooda]

All it shows ( so far ) is that the Jewish people and the Canaanites had many similarities. Your conclusion that the Jewish religion and language is borrowed from Canaanites is a result of your bias.

It is just as likely that the Canaanites were borrowing from Judaism.

No.. They predate the Jews by 1500 years..

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi Tony!

To insist that the prophecies are figurative and will be fulfilled in a heavenly manner is to deny their very essence. If you read them, it is plain at face value that they apply right here on earth. Your interpretation subverts them. For example, "Nation shall not lift sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore," cannot be read any other way except for literal world wide peace.

A promise that will be fulfilled. As Baha'u'llah said, we rejected the Most Great Peace, so now we must now find and cling to the Lesser Peace, but the Moat Great Peace will come.

But you do see it would require us to accept the Message of Peace and Unity given by G_d through Baha'u'llah.

G_d has never firced change, G_d has always warned us before the events that will create that change.

"....We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem Us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…. That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this?… Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come…. Yet do We see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind…. These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family…. Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind…."

This link lays out the requirements;

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages ix-xiv

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

No.. They predate the Jews by 1500 years..

No. You are basing that on written texts. Judaism ( the religion ) predates the Ugarite tablets.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No one is making claims that Bahai believes certain things that it does not. Rather, we are making claim that the beliefs of Bahai are incorrect. That is a VERY big difference. You on the other hand are making claims that Judaism holds to things that it does not, and claims about Jews that are patently false. And that is what is offensive. Do you see the difference now?

I did not make the claim I am sharing, I am but sharing a Message.

Sure, if you find the Messages of Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah offensive, then that is your choice.

Personally I find the teachings of G_d given in the Tanakh uplifting and full of promise. A spiritual guide.

Thus I can talk about all scriptures and find no offense with a person that wishes to share what they think about one of them.

That is the difference, it is not my interpretaion I share, thus it is not my interpretation you have issues with and find offensive.

Like all Prophets in the Past that has given a Message in the Tanakh, thise that accepted that Message and shared it are seen to be offensive and in all cases have given their lives in preference to not sharing. That will never change.

I happy not to share if you wish to hear no more, please just now say so and we can wish each ither well and move on.

G_d bless always.

Regards Tony

 

[sooda]

No. You are basing that on written texts. Judaism ( the religion ) predates the Ugarite tablets.

Remember why some were good figs and some were bad figs. The bad figs were left behind and were not taken to Babylon. There was NO Judaism until about 600 BC.. They had NO history and had worshipped the Canaanite pantheon.. Egypt collected tribute from the Canaanites and ALL of Canaan at the time of Moses and his "Exodus". The Egyptians also controlled the Sinai.

Consider for a moment how Moses grew up in the Pharaoh's household BUT Moses never remembered the name of the Pharaoh.

 

[dybmh]

Remember why some were good figs and some were bad figs. The bad figs were left behind and were not taken to Babylon. There was NO Judaism until about 600 BC.. They had NO history and had worshipped the Canaanite pantheon.. Egypt collected tribute from the Canaanites and ALL of Canaan at the time of Moses and his "Exodus". The Egyptians also controlled the Sinai.

Consider for a moment how Moses grew up in the Pharaoh's household BUT Moses never remembered the name of the Pharaoh.

Correction: Your opinion is that there was no Judaism before 600 BC. But there is oral tradition which says it is much older than that. If you deny the oral tradition; that's fine. But the Ugarite tablets are not proof of what you are claiming. And neither is the quote about figs in Jeremiah.

The Talmud indicates that Judaism may have at least gone back to Seth. Whether or not a person considers it authoritative is probably a religious matter.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Problem is that Moses, if he existed at all, never wrote anything. The Pentateuch was writing during and after the Babylonian exile. the Hebrews were just Canaanites who borrowed myths and folklore from the cultures around them.

I see G_d has allowed the Word to unfold as G_d so chose to do. It all becomes a Test for the sincerity of our hearts. It has been preserved and still contains the Word of God in a way we can still rely on them to light our path, if we so choose.

It is only with the Message of the Bab and Baha'u'llah that a great deal has come directly from the Pen of the Messenger. This is the age when education for everyone has now become a law of Faith.

The issue is that of interpretation of the recorded Word. The only people that can offer its True meaning are the Prophets given by G_d. Thus is we neglect G_d's covenant and reject G_d's given Prophet, without them or an authorised line if interpretation, we do not have access to the True meanings and that is the history to date of all Faiths. We do know it will also become the fate of the Baha'i Faith, as we now do not have an authorised line of interpretation, but as to when? It may have already strated and we know more Messengers will still come, but now we know it will be at least another 1000 years.

Regards Tony

 

[sooda]

Correction: Your opinion is that there was no Judaism before 600 BC. But there is oral tradition which says it is much older than that. If you deny the oral tradition; that's fine. But the Ugarite tablets are not proof of what you are claiming. And neither is the quote about figs in Jeremiah.

The Talmud indicates that Judaism may have at least gone back to Seth. Whether or not a person considers it authoritative is probably a religious matter.

According to tradition first appearing in the Talmud, a compendium of Jewish law redacted in Babylonia at about 500 CE (Bava Batra 14b-15a), the Book of Isaiah was written by King Hezekiah, who reigned from 715 to 686 BCE, and his aides.
Reference: www.haaretz.com/jewish/who-really-wrote-the-book-of-isaiah-1.5431430

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes I know. Except that Christianity is not "other Christian denominations" to the Bahai, but another religion entirely.

A Baha'i sees all Faith is motivated by the One G_d. All good is from G_d and all that is not good is from our own selves.

As to who are the Messengers of that good given by G_d, that becomes our choice in the search we undertake.

Regards Tony

 

[sooda]

If you read the entire book of Isaiah, it is very clear that the Servant is Israel. It is repeated many times. In order to make the Servant into the Messiah in Isaiah 53, Christians have to pull the chapter out of the context of the book.



I don't know how peace will be achieved. Honestly. I suspect that it will happen at the Messiah's hand, not by us Jews or the state of Israel. If it happens before the coming of the Messiah, it will be due to a gradual change and growth in the morality of mankind.

Will this be assisted by Jews? I can't see how it would not be. We are far more than the State of Israel, and are extremely concerned with the repair of the World. And Israel will not always be what it is today. MOST Jews in the world do not approve of what is going on. Zionism, unequivocally yes. But the treatment of the Palestinians, assuredly no.

Christians have taken Isaiah 53 completely out of context and should be ashamed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can you be brief about the message Bahallulah offered?

I think the key to the Message given by Baha'u'llah is that all the Messengers or Prophets from G_d have given a Message from the same source. Our One God.

Thus if we apply this to the Message given by Jesus we can see that the Messenger is born and annointed by the Holy Spirit, they become 'Christ'. The Message of Christ and the person of Jesus becomes the name to which we can find God. Thus Christ (Annointed One) is also the Message of Abraham, of Moses, of Krishna, of Zoroaster and Muhammad to put names to the Message given of Christ in the past. The Word of 'Christ' is the First and is the last, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. It is the Message of the Father, Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[Wandering Monk]

Christians have taken Isaiah 53 completely out of context and should be ashamed.

You will find Jewish sources that understand Isaiah 53 as pertaining to Messiah.

 

[sooda]

You will find Jewish sources that understand Isaiah 53 as pertaining to Messiah.

No you won't … There was NO ISAIAH.. It was written by the king of Judah, King Hezekiah who had seen Sargon 2 destroy Israel and settle 4 Arab tribes in Samaria.

 

[sooda]

I think the key to the Message given by Baha'u'llah is that all the Messengers or Prophets from G_d have given a Message from the same source. Our One God.

Thus if we apply this to the Message given by Jesus we can see that the Messenger is born and annointed by the Holy Spirit, they become 'Christ'. The Message of Christ and the person of Jesus becomes the name to which we can find God. Thus Christ (Annointed One) is also the Message of Abraham, of Moses, of Krishna, of Zoroaster and Muhammad to put names to the Message given of Christ in the past. The Word of 'Christ' is the First and is the last, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. It is the Message of the Father, Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

For pity's sake, Tony. Moses grew up in Pharaoh's household but he couldn't name the Pharaoh.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So do you believe everyone alive is a manifestation of God?

No. Jesus the Christ is and Christ told us how to determine who is a Prophet in the scriptures. True and false.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

For pity's sake, Tony. Moses grew up in Pharaoh's household but he couldn't name the Pharaoh.

Yet who still reigns in peoples hearts, who will they choose to die for, Moses or the pharaoh?

Moses for me.

Regards Tony

 

[Wandering Monk]

No you won't … There was NO ISAIAH.. It was written by the king of Judah, King Hezekiah who had seen Sargon 2 destroy Israel and settle 4 Arab tribes in Samaria.

Who wrote what when is not the question. The passage (Isaiah 53:5) is quoted as pertaining to Messiah in Midrash Konen, Beit ha Mikdash 2:29-30, a post-11th century Jewish writing.