Islam and Judaism are refuted.

[YoursTrue]

Tony asked: "Why then is it not Baha'u'llah?" Because Deut 18:15 says: "from your brothers, like me". Is Baha'u'llah Jewish? If not then this verse is not speaking about Baha'u'llah.

View attachment 31367

hyperlink >>> biblehub.com - Deuteronomy 18:15 Interlinear

Yes again -- it says "from your brothers."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Actually, Tony is making a good point. Although I don't go along with many of his ideas, but the Jewish people are not unitedly leading people to God as I understand it, even since the political establishment of the present-day state of Israel.

Tony is claiming that since the Baha'i'ullah was born at the same time that Jews were given the go ahead to emigrate back to Eretz Yisrael, that this fulfillment of prophecy was accomplished BY THE BAHA'I'ULLAH. Surely as a Christian you dont agree with that.

And my point stands: correlation is not causation. If someone was born on 9-11 it doesn't mean they caused the World Trade Center attacks.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes it does because it has been 2000 or so years since the destruction of the second temple. You think God was pleased with the Jews in general as a population at that time and so that's why it happened?

I'm sorry, but there is no relationship between the verse(s) you quote and the Messiah. You have engaged in non sequitur.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm sorry, but there is no relationship between the verse(s) you quote and the Messiah. You have engaged in non sequitur.

We were discussing about prophets as well. And so the point is that very often the prophets were not listened to. God got very angry. When some didn't listen to Moses, what happened? Do you remember? And again, the destruction of the second temple, quite a long time ago. It's very interesting,

 

[YoursTrue]

Tony is claiming that since the Baha'i'ullah was born at the same time that Jews were given the go ahead to emigrate back to Eretz Yisrael, that this fulfillment of prophecy was accomplished BY THE BAHA'I'ULLAH. Surely as a Christian you dont agree with that.

And my point stands: correlation is not causation. If someone was born on 9-11 it doesn't mean they caused the World Trade Center attacks.

I most certainly agree with your reasoning there. There can be false conclusions about correlations, that is true. Moses, however was a believer in God. God directed him when he fought against Pharaoh. God also made certain and clear that He approved Moses.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

לשון הרע מהו - המספר בגנותו של חבר

I appreciate that you are a Baha'i and that you are passionate about your faith and what you consider to be the truths it reveals. However I have yet to see anything in your posts to date that show you have any real understanding, any real knowledge of Judaism. Until you demonstrate such understanding, such knowledge, your post can only be seen as ignorant, arrogant, and disrespectful.

I see all Manifestations of God have been accused the same way. I am very happy to share that accusation, as it is their Messages I share. Thank you.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

We were discussing about prophets as well. And so the point is that very often the prophets were not listened to. God got very angry. When some didn't listen to Moses, what happened? Do you remember? And again, the destruction of the second temple, quite a long time ago. It's very interesting,

Christians assign messianic prophecies to the prophets that are not actually there in the text. For example, Isaiah 53 applies to Israel but Christians say it applies to the Messiah. The truth is that the only Messianic prophecies found in the prophets are as follows:

1. He will bring world wide earthly peace.
2. He will be a great warrior.
3. He will be a descendant of David.
4. He will be a just judge.
5. He will bring all the Jews back to Eretz Yisrael (or this will proceed his coming).
6. He will rule as a King (he will be David ha Melech) gaining sovereignty over the Land of Israel.
7. He will bring all Jews back to Torah observance.
8. He will reign during the Messianic era, when everyone will believe in God and no one will need to be taught right from wrong.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Until you demonstrate such understanding, such knowledge, your post can only be seen as ignorant, arrogant, and disrespectful.

I personally see that G_d has given us His Prophets and the Books, so that we can be faithful to G_d's given Covenants. That we can all live a life in love and servitude to each other, under the Love and worship of our One True God.

To do this, we are to obey the advice and laws given of G_d and submit freely to G_d's will for each of us.

Who am I to question what G_d has asked us to do? G_d doeth as G_d Willeth.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I personally see that G_d has given us His Prophets and the Books, so that we can be faithful to G_d's given Covenants. That we can all live a life in love and servitude to each other, under the Love and worship of our One True God.

To do this, we are to obey the advice and laws given of G_d and submit freely to G_d's will for each of us.

Who am I to question what G_d has asked us to do? G_d doeth as G_d Willeth.

Regards Tony

That's not the point. The point is that you keep making statements about Jews and Judaism that are incorrect. This is highly offensive to us, especially when you are corrected and refuse to learn.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Christians assign messianic prophecies to the prophets that are not actually there in the text. For example, Isaiah 53 applies to Israel but Christians say it applies to the Messiah. The truth is that the only Messianic prophecies found in the prophets are as follows:

1. He will bring world wide earthly peace.
2. He will be a great warrior.
3. He will be a descendant of David.
4. He will be a just judge.
5. He will bring all the Jews back to Eretz Yisrael (or this will proceed his coming).
6. He will rule as a King (he will be David ha Melech) gaining sovereignty over the Land of Israel.
7. He will bring all Jews back to Torah observance.
8. He will reign during the Messianic era, when everyone will believe in God and no one will need to be taught right from wrong.

Your list is good, but I see we have to look at it in a more spiritual way. All G_d's Messengers are the real Kings and have all power, but none have, or will desire earthly kingship, as they are not of this world.

They come and give a Message from G_d and that Message becomes the Just and moral standard that should be used to govern the rule of earth.

So your list;

1) Offer by and is the Message from G_d, given by Baha'u'llah. How to obtain that peave was given. That we have refused it only delays the timing.
2) I see that the warrior is inspired within the followers of the Prophet. The stories are recorded and Muhammad and the Bab had many great warriors that defended the new cause. No greater warriors have there been. In this day Baha'u'llah has turned swords into plowshares. The warriors fightinly with words.
3) Genealogy is traceable and can be confirmed.
4) There is no better Judge than G_ds Messenger. It is by that standard we are all judged.
5)-8) It happened and is happening, but do not look for an earthly king, look for a King whos message will embrace the minds of all humanity. That message is an elixer now running through the veins of humanity.

That is another way to look at your list.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's not the point. The point is that you keep making statements about Jews and Judaism that are incorrect. This is highly offensive to us, especially when you are corrected and refuse to learn.

The view in turn for you to consider, is if Baha'u'llah is that promise that the Jews await, is it me that is being offensive, or was I just trying to help? Could it be that it motivated only by the love of G_d, and what I share can be seen in that light?

Thus why take offense? I know you offer your view in the thought you offer the best advice that is available.

Thank you.

Regards Tony

 

[Wandering Monk]

That's not the point. The point is that you keep making statements about Jews and Judaism that are incorrect. This is highly offensive to us, especially when you are corrected and refuse to learn.

Don't feel bad. They do the same to other CHRISTIAN denominations.

 

[YoursTrue]

I see all Manifestations of God have been accused the same way. I am very happy to share that accusation, as it is their Messages I share. Thank you.

Regards Tony

Can you be brief about the message Bahallulah offered?

 

[YoursTrue]

Christians assign messianic prophecies to the prophets that are not actually there in the text. For example, Isaiah 53 applies to Israel but Christians say it applies to the Messiah. The truth is that the only Messianic prophecies found in the prophets are as follows:

1. He will bring world wide earthly peace.
2. He will be a great warrior.
3. He will be a descendant of David.
4. He will be a just judge.
5. He will bring all the Jews back to Eretz Yisrael (or this will proceed his coming).
6. He will rule as a King (he will be David ha Melech) gaining sovereignty over the Land of Israel.
7. He will bring all Jews back to Torah observance.
8. He will reign during the Messianic era, when everyone will believe in God and no one will need to be taught right from wrong.

Well, taking it into Isaiah 53, many people believe it pertains to Jesus. Just as you explain things, other things can be explained, too.
So continuing this line of conversation, do you really believe peace will or can be achieved by Jews or the state of Israel? How close do you think all Jews are to peace? And of course another question you bring up particularly because of #5 is who really is a Jew? If you believe that literally true, it's gonna be a long time for all Jews to emigrate to Israel.
I know a Jew who married a woman who is not Jewish and she did not convert. They had a son who claims to be Jewish and was bar mitzvahed. (not sure about spelling.) So do you and all Jews even agree as to who is really a Jew?
And again and importantly -- it's been two thousand years since the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. 2,000 years is a rather long time. (Tisha B'Av)
I agree with many of your points, and of course they require explanation.
The Messiah will bring world wide peace. #6, 7 is to be understood in light of the scriptures.
Yes, the Messiah is a great warrior and will ensure lasting peace.
Micah 4 assures His people about this.
"In the last days the mountain of the house of the LORD
will be established as the chief of the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and the peoples will stream to it.
2And many nations will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us His ways,
so that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go forth from Zion
and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3Then He will judge between many peoples
and arbitrate for strong nations far and wide.
Then they will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will no longer take up the sword against nation,
nor will they train anymore for war.
4And each man will sit under his own vine
and under his own fig tree,
with no one to frighten him.
For the mouth of the LORD of Hosts has spoken.
5Though each of the peoples
may walk in the name of his god,
yet we will walk in the name of the LORD our God
forever and ever."

 

[YoursTrue]

I see all Manifestations of God have been accused the same way. I am very happy to share that accusation, as it is their Messages I share. Thank you.

Regards Tony

So do you believe everyone alive is a manifestation of God?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Your list is good, but I see we have to look at it in a more spiritual way. All G_d's Messengers are the real Kings and have all power, but none have, or will desire earthly kingship, as they are not of this world.

Hi Tony!

To insist that the prophecies are figurative and will be fulfilled in a heavenly manner is to deny their very essence. If you read them, it is plain at face value that they apply right here on earth. Your interpretation subverts them. For example, "Nation shall not lift sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore," cannot be read any other way except for literal world wide peace.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The view in turn for you to consider, is if Baha'u'llah is that promise that the Jews await, is it me that is being offensive, or was I just trying to help? Could it be that it motivated only by the love of G_d, and what I share can be seen in that light?

Thus why take offense? I know you offer your view in the thought you offer the best advice that is available.

Thank you.

Regards Tony

No one is making claims that Bahai believes certain things that it does not. Rather, we are making claim that the beliefs of Bahai are incorrect. That is a VERY big difference. You on the other hand are making claims that Judaism holds to things that it does not, and claims about Jews that are patently false. And that is what is offensive. Do you see the difference now?

 

[sooda]

It serves its purpose, it feeds those that look for the spirit behind and in the Word.

Jesus the Christ offered it in this way;

John 6:46 "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me."

That is, that the Jewish Scriptures do point us to know and Love God in Christ.

In each age it repeats. Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah likewise told us of our One God.

The stories, based on events in their lives and the Word recorded of what they have said, become our spiritual guidance.

Regards Tony

Problem is that Moses, if he existed at all, never wrote anything. The Pentateuch was writing during and after the Babylonian exile. the Hebrews were just Canaanites who borrowed myths and folklore from the cultures around them.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Don't feel bad. They do the same to other CHRISTIAN denominations.

Yes I know. Except that Christianity is not "other Christian denominations" to the Bahai, but another religion entirely.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well, taking it into Isaiah 53, many people believe it pertains to Jesus. Just as you explain things, other things can be explained, too.

If you read the entire book of Isaiah, it is very clear that the Servant is Israel. It is repeated many times. In order to make the Servant into the Messiah in Isaiah 53, Christians have to pull the chapter out of the context of the book.

So continuing this line of conversation, do you really believe peace will or can be achieved by Jews or the state of Israel?

I don't know how peace will be achieved. Honestly. I suspect that it will happen at the Messiah's hand, not by us Jews or the state of Israel. If it happens before the coming of the Messiah, it will be due to a gradual change and growth in the morality of mankind.

Will this be assisted by Jews? I can't see how it would not be. We are far more than the State of Israel, and are extremely concerned with the repair of the World. And Israel will not always be what it is today. MOST Jews in the world do not approve of what is going on. Zionism, unequivocally yes. But the treatment of the Palestinians, assuredly no.