What would it take for you to NOT believe in God?

[ppp]

But that does not mean that none of us are right.

But all of you can be wrong/

 

[Spirit of Light]

No worries, God does not usually answer His phone anyway and if He does He usually puts you on Hold.

What about E-mail. Maybe Gods E-mail is [email protected]

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

As per the other thread about what it might take to believe in God, and presumably this might apply only to those who do have a belief in the one God, although it also might apply to others.

Nothing, really, because God cannot be disproved or proved with the current limitations of empirical science. So there's just philosophical arguments left and I find the ones opposed to God unconvincing. Plus, believing in God is a benefit to my life and helps lead to greater happiness and contentment.

 

[ecco]

I don't have his phone number......

ONE

No worries, God does not usually answer His phone anyway and if He does He usually puts you on Hold.

Alternatively...

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[ppp]

What about E-mail. Maybe Gods E-mail is [email protected]

I tried to get that domain back in the mid-90's but someone beat me to it.

 

[Left Coast]

One of two things:

• For the things I consider gods now to cease to exist, which would mean the universe and everything, including myself, would cease to exist (obviously, this is never going to happen)
• For me to fall into the trap of letting others define gods for me and thus not apply that honorific title to the things in my life that are worthy of worship (which is also never going to happen)

Edited to add - the word, honestly, isn't important. I suppose there's a third option, which is what atheists in my mind do all the time: have your gods, and don't call them gods for whatever reason.

Hey Quint,

I assume you're defining a "god" as "something that is worshipped"?

If so, how do you define "worship"?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I tried to get that domain back in the mid-90's but someone beat me to it.

Of course, God him self beat you to it
God created the domain before mankind was created , so no human could play God

 

[ppp]

Of course, God him self beat you to it
God created the domain before mankind was created , so no human could play God

Nah. It was probably just another computer nerd.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Nah. It was probably just another computer nerd.

You are so boring no sense of Godly humor

 

[Quintessence]

Hey Quint,

I assume you're defining a "god" as "something that is worshipped"?

If so, how do you define "worship"?

I tend to view the term "god" as similar to an honorific title, like "teacher" or "doctor" - we apply it to things that meet certain characteristics. As a teacher is "someone who imparts knowledge to others" and a doctor is "someone who helps the sick" a god is "someone we hold in especially high esteem or worth; aka, that we consider worthy of worship."

To some, "worship" is a loaded word but at core it just means declaring something to be of great worth or value. The reasons we have for doing that often vary. One might deem something of great worth because it embodies principles one finds important or worthy of cultivating in life. Or perhaps one is inspired by the awe and splendor of something and that makes one declare "this is a god." For some, it's about power - something with great power is of great worth or value. In the end, each person gets to decide what is of great worth and value to them. They can apply the honorific title of "god" to that... or not. A god not called god is still a god in function, just as a teacher not called teacher is still a teacher in function.

 

[Left Coast]

I tend to view the term "god" as similar to an honorific title, like "teacher" or "doctor" - we apply it to things that meet certain characteristics. As a teacher is "someone who imparts knowledge to others" and a doctor is "someone who helps the sick" a god is "someone we hold in especially high esteem or worth; aka, that we consider worthy of worship."

To some, "worship" is a loaded word but at core it just means declaring something to be of great worth or value. The reasons we have for doing that often vary. One might deem something of great worth because it embodies principles one finds important or worthy of cultivating in life. Or perhaps one is inspired by the awe and splendor of something and that makes one declare "this is a god." For some, it's about power - something with great power is of great worth or value. In the end, each person gets to decide what is of great worth and value to them. They can apply the honorific title of "god" to that... or not. A god not called god is still a god in function, just as a teacher not called teacher is still a teacher in function.

I think most English-speakers, including most theists I'm aware of, would concede that "worship" means more than just "valuing something highly." I highly value my mom; that doesn't mean I worship her, like she's a deity. I highly value my job, that doesn't mean I worship my job.

This is the kind of equivocation that theists constantly pull, and to be honest, it drives me a bit bonkers (if I wasn't bonkers already, which is subject to heated debate ). It's the same equivocation that occurs when it comes to "religion," or "faith," to claim that atheists engage in those things, too.

Atheists only engage in those things when the goalposts are moved and definitions are so watered down that they become near universal. You believe things - faith! You have a belief system - religion! Ha! Checkmate, atheists!

Sorry, but that's not really a helpful use of language. Clearly all those terms mean something more in common usage than what atheists can standardly be said to do/think.

If you want to claim your dog is your "god," and therefore...your god exists, see! Then....okay. But no dog meets the typical criteria we use in English for determining if something is a "god," other than as an obvious metaphor ( describing a performer as "a musical god," say). So you're not meaningfully interacting with the question of whether gods exist as understood in English by the vast majority of both theists and atheists.

So if you want to use non-standard language to turn every human on the planet into a de facto "theist," that's fine. But let's be crystal clear out front that by "theist" you don't mean what most of us do.

 

[Trailblazer]

Kool-Aid is Kool-Aid

And the Water of Life is the Water of Life:

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

 

[Trailblazer]

Alternatively...

Thank you for calling God
Our menu has changed, so please listen to all the options before making a selection.

Yes, let's look at all the options, not just the Bible option....
The menu has changed and the Bible is no longer on the menu.
God is now calling upon is to look at what is on the new menu.

“Behold how the manifold grace of God, which is being showered from the clouds of Divine glory, hath, in this day, encompassed the world. For whereas in days past every lover besought and searched after his Beloved, it is the Beloved Himself Who now is calling His lovers and is inviting them to attain His presence. Take heed lest ye forfeit so precious a favor; beware lest ye belittle so remarkable a token of His grace.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 320

 

[Trailblazer]

But all of you can be wrong.

That certainly is a logical possibility.
The three mutually exclusive logical possibilities are as follows:

1. God exists and sends Messengers who establish religions, or
2. God exists and does not communicate to humans, or
3. God does not exist

 

[Trailblazer]

What about E-mail. Maybe Gods E-mail is [email protected]

Or prayer requests. God hears all of those and answers some of them, even if we cannot hear Him answer.

 

[Left Coast]

Alternatively...

Thank you for calling God
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Your wait time is approximately...10,000 years. Our lines are unusually busy at this time due to a global pandemic. We appreciate your patience.

 

[Quintessence]

I think most English-speakers, including most theists I'm aware of, would concede that "worship" means more than just "valuing something highly."

Well, it does mean more than just "valuing something highly" - there's a particularly great depth to it. A profundity. A... honestly, it's hard to describe. I don't know what other word to put to that other than to call it sacred/divine. And honestly, the word isn't important. The depth of feeling is.

I highly value my mom; that doesn't mean I worship her, like she's a deity. I highly value my job, that doesn't mean I worship my job.

That's not at all unusual. This sort of thing is the norm for polytheists - something being deeply worthy and therefore deified doesn't mean you engage in some particular sort worshipful behaviors with any regularity. Nor does it tell us much about what those behaviors look like, and they vary quite a lot.

IThis is the kind of equivocation that theists constantly pull, and to be honest, it drives me a bit bonkers (if I wasn't bonkers already, which is subject to heated debate ). It's the same equivocation that occurs when it comes to "religion," or "faith," to claim that atheists engage in those things, too.

Well, they pretty much do, though. The thing is, "god" and "religion" as most English-speakers understand it is heavily biased towards classical monotheist theologies and their associated religions, particularly Christianity. The very concept of "religion" is a very modern/Western construct. While some degree of ethnocentrism in how we understand the world is unavoidable, it is possible to escape the narrow understanding most Westerners have of what religion is, what worship is, and what gods are with a little study. It's not easy. These assumptions are so engrained in our thinking that it's like a box we don't even see or recognize is there. When others point out the box, the response is usually dismissive or negative. Funny thing is, if I just didn't use the words, nobody would complain. And the words aren't what's important in the first place.

 

[Left Coast]

Well, it does mean more than just "valuing something highly" - there's a particularly great depth to it. A profundity. A... honestly, it's hard to describe. I don't know what other word to put to that other than to call it sacred/divine. And honestly, the word isn't important. The depth of feeling is.

I agree, the meaning is vastly more important than the label. But labels, unfortunately, are the way us primates can communicate ideas (particularly complex ones) to each other. And virtually nobody in English just uses "worship" to mean "have a deep feeling about." Worship is an act, a verb, not a feeling.

So again, if you want to use non-standard language, that's fine. But don't be surprised when people are reasonably perplexed.

That's not at all unusual. This sort of thing is the norm for polytheists - something being deeply worthy and therefore deified doesn't mean you engage in some particular sort worshipful behaviors with any regularity. Nor does it tell us much about what those behaviors look like, and they vary quite a lot.

Then the word is virtually meaningless, to be honest. If I "love" my partner, but that "love" could be any of a variety of completely contradictory things, from doing kind things for him to abusing him to ignoring him, then the term has zero communicative or meaningful value.

If we care more about the ideas involved than the words, I don't understand why you need to use some word that clearly has mainstream uses/meanings when what you mean by them is something so obviously different. If we care about meanings and not words...why attach your ideas to these words, which only muddies the waters? What it feels like is that in fact there is some attachment to these religious terms, and a need to somehow rehabilitate them to make them palatable. If we care about meanings more than words, then let's communicate in a way that clearly delivers the message instead of using "cat" when you actually mean "dog."

Well, they pretty much do, though. The thing is, "god" and "religion" as most English-speakers understand it is heavily biased towards classical monotheist theologies and their associated religions, particularly Christianity. The very concept of "religion" is a very modern/Western construct. While some degree of ethnocentrism in how we understand the world is unavoidable, it is possible to escape the narrow understanding most Westerners have of what religion is, what worship is, and what gods are with a little study. It's not easy. These assumptions are so engrained in our thinking that it's like a box we don't even see or recognize is there. When others point out the box, the response is usually dismissive or negative. Funny thing is, if I just didn't use the words, nobody would complain. And the words aren't what's important in the first place.

Again, if the words/labels aren't important, let's toss them and say what we actually mean. Instead of insisting to atheists that, "No you really do believe in gods!"

 

[Quintessence]

I agree, the meaning is vastly more important than the label. But labels, unfortunately, are the way us primates can communicate ideas (particularly complex ones) to each other. And virtually nobody in English just uses "worship" to mean "have a deep feeling about." Worship is an act, a verb, not a feeling.

I think there's been some failure to communicate here, because I worship is an act. Feeling something is worthy of worship (aka, worth the title of "god" or some other equivalent term) is the feeling. Does that clarify?

Then the word is virtually meaningless, to be honest. If I "love" my partner, but that "love" could be any of a variety of completely contradictory things, from doing kind things for him to abusing him to ignoring him, then the term has zero communicative or meaningful value.

Well, yes. Recognizing that words may not mean what we think they mean as a speaker to the listener is critical to communications, especially across cultures. Make assumptions with caution. There are some words in the English language that are especially polysemic, with "love" being a good example of that, and "god" being another. There's a reason why I often ask what sort of god-concept someone intends to mean when asking questions and such.

If we care more about the ideas involved than the words, I don't understand why you need to use some word that clearly has mainstream uses/meanings when what you mean by them is something so obviously different.

Simple - to represent very real cultural diversity instead of sweeping it under the rug like it doesn't exist. The "mainstream" is defined based on cultural majority groups at the expense of minority groups. I'm not going to roll over and just allow the dominant cultural group to define the be-all and end-all of what the word "god" means, or what "religion" means, or what "worship" means. They don't get that right. They don't get to pretend that the rest of us don't exist. They don't get to exclude us from the conversation. And when these very traditions that enjoy such cultural hegemony today historically engaged in deliberate oppression of other ideas? Yeah, I'm definitely not going to just sit down and shut up. Minority groups and cultures have voices too. They have culture too. Whether or not it is "mainstream" should be entirely irrelevant, especially on a forum that is intended to (at least in part) represent religious and theological diversity.

Again, if the words/labels aren't important, let's toss them and say what we actually mean. Instead of insisting to atheists that, "No you really do believe in gods!"

I don't really frame things like that, though, so I'm not sure where this is coming from. Maybe some folks say stuff like this to try and undermine others; not really my deal. I like to go beyond labels to delve into the substance of what is different and what is similar in cultures. Ask questions. Think and reflect. Folks can call things what they like. I see Pagans who identify as non-theist who to me are basically worshiping gods, but to them they don't use those words. When I run into non-polytheists, some refuse to understand my gods are gods and I get called an atheist. Those kinds of responses reflects cultural differences. Those can be learned from and are nothing to get upset about, really, but people get upset about it anyway. Maybe that goes back to tribalism and the fearing of things different?

 

[ecco]

Thank you for calling God
Our menu has changed, so please listen to all the options before making a selection.

The menu has changed and the Bible is no longer on the menu.
God is now calling upon is to look at what is on the new menu.

Not into jokes, eh? Oh well.

A new menu put together by a disaffected Muslim - b o r i n g.