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Featured Was Jesus Crucified or Not?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Jan 26, 2019.

?
  1. Yes

    64.6%
  2. No

    8.3%
  3. I don't know

    14.6%
  4. This poll doesn't reflect my thinking

    12.5%
  1. DavidMcCann

    DavidMcCann Well-Known Member

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    The crucifixion of Jesus is mentioned by
    1. Mark, who was apparently in Jerusalem at the time, and was secretary to Peter, who was present.
    2. Paul, who arrived in Jerusalem 8 years later and so knew eye-witnesses.
    3. Josephus, writing 60 years later.
    4. Tacitus, writing 80 years later.
    5. Everyone mentioning Jesus in antiquity, Christians and Pagans alike.

    It is denied by an illiterate Arab writing 600 years later. Yet another piece of evidence that the Quran is rubbish.
     
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  2. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Obviously with the confusion of beliefs, somebody has to come up with a plausible explanation. But you don't tell it like you see it, you tell it like the Baha'i Faith tells you to see it. To make everything that you don't believe in "true" in the other religious books, Baha'is make them symbolic and not historical events. That's a sweet deal.

    Baha'is have no problem with Jesus being born from a virgin or getting crucified. But, was there a star that led the wise men to Bethlehem? Did angels appear to the shepherds? Did dead people come out of their graves? Did the veil get torn in two? Was there an earthquake? Did it get dark for three hours during the day? Then, the big one, did Jesus come back to life a few days later?

    For Baha'is, they don't have to debate about whether any of that happened. Baha'is can easily make it all go away by saying that those things were only symbolic and never happened. That's too easy and too sweet. No, you don't tell it like it is... you tell it like you want it to be... Like your religion tells you it is. You make all the other religions right... and wrong at the same time. But make the Baha'i Faith the only one that is totally right in all things. How sweet is that?
     
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  3. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    There's too much gray area in the history of the matter. It's likely that Jesus or the person who inspired the character was crucified during various rebellions in Judea. It's likely that he was pulled down early precisely to prevent his death. I mean, I don't recall ever hearing anyone say the other criminals needed to brought down early because of the Sabbath or whatever. Maybe someone can confirm. It's also why I think the centurion whose servant Jesus healed was in on the entire thing, because Romans weren't known for caring whatsoever about Jewish sensibilities. It was lip service if nothing else to keep them quiet. If they truly cared about the Sabbath, all the crucified people would be taken down. Historically, I was under the impression the bodies were left to rot since they were examples to the rest of society. Taking everything down shortly after death doesn't fit the need for public reminders. At least, that's how it seems to me. It's not like we hear of Team Spartacus being taken down. At least, I couldn't find anything saying they were taken down, even if Romans were just tired of looking at the forest of crucifixes. The crucifixion of Jesus just reeks of conspiracy if you stop to think about it for awhile.

    There are plenty of sources that talk of the gods participating in the Trojan War, too.

    It'd be even more historical if any of the apostles had witnessed it, but only John says John witnessed it. Everyone else says the apostles had all run off, so they witnessed neither the Passion nor the Crucifixion.

    Given that Jesus might have had a twin brother, I can see where Muslims would come up with "it was another guy". Having a twin means the plot becomes even worse, because now you have Person B capable of pretending to be Person A.

    Which is weird because he doesn't really make much of an appearance until just before the Passion IIRC and his punishment for doing what DESTINY demanded seems curious.

    Does the verse say that? I recall it says his "side" was pierced. That could be any lateral point on the body.

    It's fascinating to me when believers aren't.

    And Christianity was invented by Paul so he could distance himself from his Jewish roles pending a Roman crackdown. He changes his name, moves, and makes sure to emphasize his Roman citizenship. Romans at least kinda respected ancient religions, such as Judaism. They thought Christianity was some newfangled nonsense. Christianity was political from the get-go, especially once legalized, where the leaders go postal on just about every pagan anything they can get their bloodthirsty hands on.

    See, God told ME to learn from others because it's important for some reason. I believe it links back to the advice to see that we are all parts of the same body and the eye cannot say to the hand the hand isn't needed. Conformity and uniformity breeds extinction, as there is no variation to allow for adaptation.

    In today's world, Jesus would preach about the Good Atheist, where all the self-righteous believers leave the injured person on the road but only the unbeliever is willing to help.

    And current studies lend some credibility to that.

    Not really. There's a difference between an X-Man and Thor or Galactus or whatever. Even Jesus derided people for looking for signs. Miracles don't prove anything, as we see in Exodus, where Egyptian priests could do magic tricks too. Hell, they probably invented the ones used. Moses would've learned Egyptian magic beliefs while growing up as Egyptian royalty.

    I agree. I get the desire to "get away from it all", but someone has to clock in and get to work if anything is going to be done.

    There are plenty of verses that imply or outright state otherwise, though.

    Jesus broke plenty of rules. Was he not saved, then? In other words, if the saved will want to do good works and follow the rules, and Jesus is breaking them about every other paragraph, what does this mean for him?

    And in pre-Jewish thought, the God Mot was God of Death and lived in a sewage-filled palace underground. Yum.

    When was he present? They had all run off and only John says John was there. The bible is FILLED with witnessed events where the witnesses weren't even there.
     
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  4. TheresOnlyNow

    TheresOnlyNow The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think

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    There's way too many multi-quote members there to sift through since the member remarks quoted in a reply format does not show. Just a wall of quotes.
    Two things did get my attention though and those I will address because the hostility toward Christians is rank from top to bottom in the reply in question.

    Firstly, "There are plenty of sources that talk of the gods participating in the Trojan War, too." Entirely irrelevant. A non-sequitur.

    Second and lastly as far as my attention to this poster and their remarks: "
    "In today's world, Jesus would preach about the Good Atheist, where all the self-righteous believers leave the injured person on the road but only the unbeliever is willing to help." You've no awareness nor even basic understanding of the scripture you are misrepresenting horribly so as to I guess make atheists look superior to Christians.
    The story you do not know in no wise resembles anything you're trying to say there.

    "And current studies lend some credibility to that." No, they do not.
    We can all rest assure of this because you have no proof to support your ridiculous claim. In fact, you, and any other hostile-toward-Christian(s) atheists on any forum on the entire WWW are evidence in itself that supports the contrary of what you hoped to impart as 'credible'.
    When your people are not kind in print to Christians on forums anywhere at all, you are not at all to be thought to be kind to Christians face to face.
    Here's a suggestion to help any atheist Troll who exists in this world.
    When you all think to troll Christian communities don't be lazy and pathetic as trolls. Be studious even for a week prior and do a basic read of any Christianity 101 site so as to know something about Jesus, Christianity, Salvation, the Good Samaratin parable, and God. That way you'll at least appear to be slightly conscious, lazy and pathetic as a troll with nothing better to do than show Christians you may choose to troll what damnation in the flesh acts like when it has a keyboard in front of it. And nothing better to do than Troll a people who believe in something you all argue isn't there.
    Which makes you look really bad when you occupy your time arguing against a people who know better. And you call us deluded. LOL
    See, those who are open to salvation act like it. Those who are not we're told to kick the dust from our feet and move on.
    And so I shall.

    That is all.
     
  5. TheresOnlyNow

    TheresOnlyNow The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think

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    No. Those are links to various sources you can choose to open and read as there are more than one available.
    There's also this,Did the Earliest Christians Really Think Jesus Was God? One Important Example
    as there are some denominational teachings that falsely impart the scripture that tells us Jesus was God incarnate is false and was added to the scriptures many centuries after he had taught his Disciples the truth.
    I hope that helps clear the confusion. If not please let me know.
    Blessings.
     
  6. TheresOnlyNow

    TheresOnlyNow The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think

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    The reason the arms were raised above the chest level in crucifixion was because the upper torso would naturally fall forward. The feet, either tied or nailed, would not be able to hold erect the upper body due to the nails penetration of the tendons and ligaments in the feet, or ankles. Depending on where the executioner found purchase with the iron stakes. What we call nails today were more like rail road ties that would have been half the thickness of an actual tie.
    Water in the lungs would be the result of the body falling forward and respiration being retarded due to the upper body and arms positioning. It was done this way so that the crucified would suffocate in their own fluid. Blood would collect in the case of the spearing of the Christ due to the spear head entering into the right or left ventricle of the heart with the thrust through the lung. Depending on which side the soldier was on when he made the impact.
    A person would appear dead at that juncture, prior to the spearing , becuause they were in essence near drowned or dead. Remember too, the sponge that was raised to Jesus' lips? It was thought to contain vinegar so as to further his suffering rather than quench his thirst with actual water.
    However, there's long been a theory, if you remember the Roman centurion who's daughter was healed of a terminal disease at a distance and by Jesus? All due to the centurion asking Jesus for this gift and his faith that Jesus could do this without seeing the child in person.
    It isn't therefore outside the realm of possibility that Jesus had allies within the Roman guard at his crucifixion. If anyone would know he was not just a man it would be those temple guards and the Roman guards that made his arrest in the garden.
    Peter took the sword and cleaved one temple guards ear off. Remember? Jesus reattached it so that the man was fully healed and then chastised Peter for the violent act. (Why was Peter armed? ;) )
    The Roman guards would have witnessed this miracle.
    It is thought that on that sponge was a narcotic concoction meant to hasten Jesus' unconscious state. Not death, but that which would knock him out. Which could have also been intended and premeditated through collusion with a Roman and Jesus' family there , so as to fulfill the prophecy.
    Psalms 34:19-20 (NIV)
    19 The righteous person may have many troubles,
    but the LORD delivers him from them all;
    20 he protects all his bones,
    not one of them will be broken.


    Don't forget parts of people, "saints", that are collected as relics.Mummified fingers, hands, etc... And the supposed "saints" under glass that do not decompose?
    Necromancy, prayer and reverence for dead bodies and persons.
    Can you imagine being someone deemed a saint here on earth after you are dead via the RCC?
    Imagine. There you are in Heaven and no, it isn't paradise and lots of fun and joy. You're constantly beset by prayers asking you to intercede on their behalf. Asking Jesus or God for a boon.


    I think if I recall correctly it was Constantine's mother who's life work was seeking holy Christian relics after he legalized the faith . Again, if I recall, it was she that allegedly found the original wood of his cross and one or all the nails?
     
  7. TheresOnlyNow

    TheresOnlyNow The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think

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    Please, don't anyone believe that!

    Why? Because she didn't post any proof to sustain her claim. Instead, she posted the link to the site that gives non-Christian sources giving evidence for Jesus.
    Thanks for that. :) You reiterated one of the links in my Bing link of sources found.

    In fact, for those interested in the agenda of atheists dead set on leading people away from the living Christ, the first source mentioned in that link above is that of Tacitus.
    If you don't think atheists in the world work for the adversary think again.
    BING Search Words: refuting atheist lies tacitus jesus


    Now read this:
    Tacitus as a Credible Witness
    By Rob Robinson on May 27, 2014 •
    Claims by critics that the Tacitus account describing the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ, were written at too great a distance to the event to be considered credible, are without merit.
     
  8. TheresOnlyNow

    TheresOnlyNow The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think

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    Acually, Muhammad was illiterate and a merchant. He recited the sura (scriptures) that would become the Qur'an before he died to those he could trust that were literate.
    Who knows what actually happened after that? Were those writers to interpolate their own thoughts into the work , it isn't like Muhammad would be able to proof read their writing.
     
  9. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The verses in the Quran regarding the crucifixion are vague and problematic if taken literally as is made clear in some very good posts on this thread.

    Was Jesus Crucified or Not?

    Was Jesus Crucified or Not?

    If we want to know the truth of the crucifixion the gospels are clear.

    Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spake again to them.
    But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
    And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.
    And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed.
    And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required.

    Luke 23:20-24

    And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
    Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

    Luke 23:33-34

    Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
    And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
    When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
    Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
    Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

    Matthew 27:22-26

    And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
    And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.

    Matthew 27:31-32

    The authors of the gospels clearly wanted to convey that Christ was crucified and there is no good reason to discount such a narrative.

    In fact both the crucifixion and resurrection narratives are an inseparable part of the New Testament and intimately intertwined.

    Death and Resurrection Passages in the New Testament | CARM.org

    Removing either accounts as the Muslims propose essentially mutilates the Gospels.
     
  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The problem with Islam is the extent to which its a fundamentalist religion unable to free itself from the intellectual shackles of its orthodox and conservative leaders and scholars. So to be a Muslim means to accept the very literal interpretation of the Quranic verses Surah An-Nisa 4:155-158. That entails rejecting the most likely and plausible scenario, namely Christ was crucified as recorded in the Gospels. Christianity as we both know is not entirely free from the same fundamentalism either. Many Christian leaders will insist on a literal understanding of the resurrection narrative as a fundamental Christian belief. The resurrection is a separate but related topic, but insisting on a literal resurrection as a non-negotiable for Christian faith feels very similar to the Muslims insisting Christ wasn't crucified.
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The Romans definitely knew how to inflict pain and suffering on their victims. The treatment of Jesus was especially severe because of the circumstances under which it was carried out. The Pharisees wanted Jesus dead so they whipped up charges of blasphemy so as to have him put to death. They arrested him at night, held an illegal trial with false witnesses and kept him up all night with punishing interrogation and mocking. They apparently had no authority from the Roman Government to execute anyone, so they needed a representative to authorize it. Pilate however, found no grounds on which to execute Jesus and just wanted to flog him and let him go. That wasn't good enough for the Jews and that's when things got nasty. Determined to be rid of this man, they then threatened Pilate's political career.....and even his life by threatening to report him to Caesar for sedition....siding with one who, as a claimed "King of the Jews", replaced Caesar, thus making Pilate guilty of treason....an enemy of Caesar. He hurriedly acquiesced, but only after symbolically washing his hands of the whole affair. He had Jesus flogged with a whip embedded with bone fragments to tear at his flesh, so as to appease the Jews, and then handed Jesus over to them to be executed.

    So are you suggesting that the guard who pierced Jesus with the spear, was actually the one who put him to death? That is not what the scriptures say, but Jesus' death fulfilled those prophesies....1) that no bones would be broken....and 2) that he would be pierced.

    I really don't see the need to go beyond what is written in the gospel accounts. In any event, it was Jesus' death that accomplished salvation for the humans who qualify for it.

    LOL....More conspiracy theories?

    Luke 22:35-38....."He also said to them: “When I sent you out without a money bag and a food pouch and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?” They said: “No!” 36 Then he said to them: “But now let the one who has a money bag take it, likewise a food pouch, and let the one who has no sword sell his outer garment and buy one. 37 For I tell you that what is written must be accomplished in me, namely, ‘He was counted with lawless ones.’ For this is being fulfilled concerning me.” 38 Then they said: “Lord, look! here are two swords.” He said to them: “It is enough.”

    Peter was armed because Jesus told the apostles, who had been unarmed all this time, to go and buy swords. They found 2 and Jesus said it was "enough".....enough for what though? Certainly not enough when an armed mob came to arrest him. And certainly not for shedding blood, as Jesus' rebuke to Peter demonstrated. It was merely to fulfill prophesy. No need to add intrigue....is there? :D

    According to Matthew's account....."they gave him wine mixed with gall to drink; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it."

    The Greek word kho·leʹ (gall) here refers to a bitter liquid made from plants or a bitter substance in general. Showing that this event was a fulfillment of prophecy, Matthew quotes Psalm 69:21, where the Septuagint uses this Greek word to render the Hebrew word for “poison.” Apparently, women of Jerusalem had prepared the mixture of wine and gall to dull the pain of those being executed, and the Romans did not object to its use.
    The parallel account at Mark 15:23 says that the wine was “drugged with myrrh,” so the drink evidently contained both myrrh and bitter gall.

    But "he refused to drink it".....Jesus evidently wanted to have full possession of all his faculties during this test of his faith.
     
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  12. TheresOnlyNow

    TheresOnlyNow The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think

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    That's quite a narrative. Especially since just below concerning the piercing of Jesus lung/heart, you state my observations are not what the scriptures say. When your narrative is exactly that.



    Save when you do that?

    That's ridiculous to say and then provide the scripture that reiterates what I observed.

    I didn't think so until you began to do just that.



    Do you often copy and paste but not credit exerpts from the Watchtower Online Library?

    I did not realize you were JW. I had imagined given your arguments against Jesus' divinity that you were Anabaptist or Christadelphian. Especially in the beginning of this your latest reply.
    Now that I know you are JW, we have nothing further to discuss.
    Have a great life. :)

    (edit to add quote bracket.)
     
    #112 TheresOnlyNow, Jan 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Mostly I do, but small excerpts, not always. People know I often quote from The Watchtower Online Library....its a well researched and knowledgeable source. Not as credible as your own apparently...?

    It's right there in the description of my religion. Just for the record....."Eclectic Christian means what exactly? Are you just a 'collector' of ideas with no brotherhood....a church of one?...a celestial "shopper"? With whom do you meet in person to share your beliefs? (Hebrews 10:24-25) There are many others here who are just like you.....so how do we know which one of you has it right?


    "Life is 10% of what happens to you and 90% of how you react to it.''

    So true that. 'Reactions' can be often be somewhat surprising......duly noted.
    [​IMG] Some people see what the horse dropped as waste......others see it as fertilizer....:shrug:
    It all depends on how you react to it. ;)
     
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  14. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    Sometimes I think you like to disagree just to disagree. There is evidence that these roman executions were common, and that Jesus being a member of this region and one who Biblically is said to have been executed by this method, there is no tangible evidence that we have today that can cross reference that verifies this or this item was a part of Jesus' execution. Even if we have the actual nails themselves we do not have a database for the DNA of Jesus to say it was actually his DNA that matches due to the fact Jesus allegedly ascended so we have no proof I don't see where the debate is. I'm not denying the possibility of his execution, I'm denying any tangible evidence that we have that can be verifiably linked to Jesus being executed.

    I rest my case.

    If you say so, the story of Jesus is not unique....

    And......The fact that there is no tangible proof nor DNA that we can cross reference to show he was historically executed.
     
  15. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Bahai perespective, is, there was literally a star that led the magies.
     
  16. TheresOnlyNow

    TheresOnlyNow The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think

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    Typically so as to avoid the charge of plagiarism when someone excerpts from a source, not posting their own intellectual thought or property, they credit that source.




    You are correct. It was my error in not reading your profile first.
    The same could be said for your JW's.
    Eclectic Christian means I am not a fundamentalist.



    Interesting that you chose that simile as your best comeback.
     
  17. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Thanks and where is that mentioned in the Baha'i writings?
     
  18. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    You make it sound as if I'm being deceptive in some way. I'm a Baha'i. In regards the OP question, Baha'is believe Jesus was crucified as recorded in the Gospels. We see the Quranic verses as symbolic.

    This is all off topic, but Baha'is will have clear concise answers to all the questions you have already asked many times before.

    Baha'is have a worldview as with any other religion that requires explanation. As with any worldview there are arguments for and against.
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    A JW quoting from the JW Library is not unusual at all. As I said, its a well researched and accurate source of information. Its available to all, not just JW's.

    "Eclectic" means...."deriving ideas, style, or taste from a broad and diverse range of sources."
    And a "fundamentalist is "a person who believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture in a religion."

    JW's are not 'eclectic' because we derive our beliefs from just one source.....the Bible....and there are about eight and half million of us who all believe the same things, in every nation on earth.....we all believe the things that Jesus taught....not the twisted stuff that came later when humans adopted 'lost puppies' from pagan religions....the trinity.....immortality of the soul.....hellfire.....none of these were taught by Jesus, but all of Christendom's churches teach them.....coincidentally, so do the non-Christian religions.

    We are not fundamentalists either, but understand well what is figurative and what is literal. The Bible contains both. Its not exactly rocket science. The Bible provides its own explanations.

    I thought it demonstrated well how people respond to things that they are not well educated about. What some people see as disgusting 'waste' to be discarded, others see as a useful growing medium.

    I was not always a JW but in my twenties, I went searching for God because I never found him in Christendom. I was not expecting to find him with JW's....but, to my surprise, there he was. I was always under the impression that JW's were some crackpot sect that had some weird beliefs.....but I found out through careful study that the beliefs I was raised with were the weird ones. They have been around so long, most people never question them. I'm glad I did. :)
     
    #119 Deeje, Jan 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
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  20. joelr

    joelr Active Member

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    Well he was a savior messiah ("Jesus" means savior!?) and that's what they are supposed to do? It's part of the mythology to die and rise in 3 days?
    So the odds are low that there was a Rabbi teaching some alternative stuff and he was crucified and then the savior messiah myth was put onto him? And his name was "Savior"?

    https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13890 - pagan comparisons
     
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