Was Jesus Crucified or Not?

[TheresOnlyNow]

God did not incarnate in original Christianity either....apostasy caused corrupt humans to adopt that belief (stolen from non-Abrahamic religions.) The God of Abraham does not need to personally pay the ransom for mankind for two reasons....

1) God is immortal and cannot die. Mere humans cannot kill God.

2) If God came to earth as a human, then he would not be the equivalent of Adam.....who was a creation of God. it would be an overpayment equivalent to paying a kidnapper 100 trillion dollars when he only demanded a million.

The first of your assertion concerning early Christians is not correct. They did believe Jesus was God.
Did the Earliest Christians Really Think Jesus Was God? One Important Example

December 11, 2014



And that's not an accurate description of the second Adam at all.

1 Corinthians 15:“since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive” (verses 22-23)."

Source and more reading: Why is Jesus called the second Adam? | Biblword.net

 

[Firemorphic]

Not for anyone who has studied Islam and its history.

Sure, historically you could say there are political aspects (which is natural for everything from Hinduism to Christianity to Baha'i) but as a Muslim, politics is as far away from Islamic spirituality as you could get. It is (Shi'ism at least) a philosophical and mystical religion.

But I'm not at liberty to convince you otherwise though, if you're too attached to that political view.

Here's a challenge though, have a guess what my political leanings are

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Sure, historically you could say there are political aspects (which is natural for everything from Hinduism to Christianity to Baha'i) but as a Muslim, politics is as far away from Islamic spirituality as you could get. It is (Shi'ism at least) a philosophical and mystical religion.

But I'm not at liberty to convince you otherwise though, if you're too attached to that political view.

Here's a challenge though, have a guess what my political leanings are

Quite frankly those are not my concern.
Islam is inextricably linked to the Qur'an and the Ḥadīth.
Not only are politics part of the Qur'an, but also commerce in Islam is directly linked to the Qur'an and sustained by the Ḥadīth . Banking and finance are also consistent with the principles of Sharia law. The law particular to Islam and Muslims. Though Muslims can and have prosecuted their Sharia against non-Muslims.
That's a different thread.

 

[Riders]

This is a question that is often debated by Muslims and Christians.

The Christians refer to the four gospel accounts that provide clear accounts of Christ's crucifixion. Historians, including atheists usually agree Christ was crucified. When they don't its because they don't believe Jesus existed at all.

Muslims believe Jesus wasn't crucified at all based on the following verses in the Quran.

Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia

And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, "Our hearts are wrapped". Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.
And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander,
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

Surah An-Nisa [4:155-158]

These verses are taken literally. Many Muslims believe that the body of Jesus was substituted and another crucified in His place.

Islamic views on Jesus' death - Wikipedia

So who is right, and why?

For what its worth, Baha'is believe Christ was crucified.

They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
WHat is meant by that God killed and raised Jesus up?

 

[74x12]

This is a question that is often debated by Muslims and Christians.

The Christians refer to the four gospel accounts that provide clear accounts of Christ's crucifixion. Historians, including atheists usually agree Christ was crucified. When they don't its because they don't believe Jesus existed at all.

Muslims believe Jesus wasn't crucified at all based on the following verses in the Quran.

Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia

And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, "Our hearts are wrapped". Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.
And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander,
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

Surah An-Nisa [4:155-158]

These verses are taken literally. Many Muslims believe that the body of Jesus was substituted and another crucified in His place.

Islamic views on Jesus' death - Wikipedia

So who is right, and why?

For what its worth, Baha'is believe Christ was crucified.

The scriptures are clear enough that Jesus was crucified. The Bible condemns those teachings that say Jesus did not come in the flesh (and die in the flesh and rise from the dead in the flesh) as being antichrist. This means against Christ and also in place of Christ because they teach another jesus.

 

[lukethethird]

What is always fascinating to me are the unbelievers who find themselves consumed with the details of the faith.
It isn't true. It's fiction. It's a myth for the pathetic. Etc....
And yet, in irretrievable moments of their own life and the time they have here on this earth, they choose to spend hours of it obsessing over what they first insult. Or profess isn't true at all.

I'm not a Muslim because I know it isn't a religion. It is a political ideology conceived by Muhammad.
That's why I don't join Islam discussion forums. It is their faith, not mine. It is not worth my time.

I'm not an atheist. That's why I don't join unbeliever forums. Because it isn't worth my time.
But unbelievers are consumed with Christianity more than any other faith.

Some even form tax exempt groups so they can harass in particular people of Christ. And in the course of doing that violate their 501c designation via the tax exempt status they were privileged to receive by the IRS. But that's a later news story as to it being revoked.
Contrary to the optimist among us, no, such people as the unbelievers obsessed with the faith they don't believe in, are not so because they're led by our Lord to change.
If they were they'd be kinder.
No, they are God's sending alright but so as to show us what it looks like to live Godless. Mentally, emotionally. Obsessed with what one's intellect affirms isn't real is leading of the enemy of the righteous.

Unbelievers are the new parable.

Maybe one day if we get around to it we might want to consider obsessing about atheists.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Thanks for clearing that up.

You're welcome.
In the Romans Catholicism , which focus also on "relics", the spear used is called, the Spear of Destiny, also, the Holy Lance. (I knew someone named Lance once. Boy did he have jokes. (really need a laughing smiley there),the Hofburg Spear and the Lance of Longinus.(I haven't met anyone with that name yet. Yet.)

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Maybe one day if we get around to it we might want to consider obsessing about atheists.

Why would we waste our time?
They obsess over us and seek us out. That's when we're charged with teaching, and correcting their error, as the Bible says about its purpose.

 

[Vouthon]

An argument could be made that the Syriac Infancy Gospel derived its origin from the Quran and not the other way around. Regardless it would be impossible to establish with certainly how one account affected the other if at all.

Textual criticism is increasingly being applied to the Qur'an, as it has been to the Bible since the 18th century. Nicolai Sinai's, The Qur’an: A Historical-Critical Introduction (Edinburgh University Press, 2017) is the latest such major exercise, Keith E. Small's, Textual Criticism and Qur’an Manuscripts (Lanham/Boulder/New York/Toronto/Plymouth: Lexington Books, 2012) is another.

Note Small’s opening statement (p. 3): “It is widely acknowledged that there has never been a critical text produced for the Qur’an based on extant manuscripts, as has been done with other sacred books and bodies of ancient literature..." Islamic countries have seriously restricted Western efforts to do so. And despite emphasising the relative stability of Qur'anic transmission compared to other books from antiquity, he later opines that, "the history of the transmission of the text of the Qur’an is at least as much a testament to the destruction of Qur’an material as it is to its preservation . . . It is also testimony to the fact that there never was one original text of the Qur’an” (p. 180).”

There is a consensus among Western scholars of Islam that the Qur'an must be historically contextualized in late antiquity, and that it is indeed a fascinating document which brings together many themes of this period and crystallises them. To this end, it is widely agreed that the Qur'an uses narratives about Jesus from the region where it originated and this is to be expected. The story of the “Companions in the Cave” in Sura Al-Kahf 9–26 is evidently derived from the story of the “Seven Sleepers of Ephesus,” a Christian tale found in the writings of the Syrian bishop Jacob of Serugh (c. 450 – 521), which he in turn transcribed from an earlier Greek source.

The Qur’an is not a miracle when viewed from a scholarly perspective (which must always be secular), it is a historical phenomenon. Regarding it as the divinely inspired Word of God should not prevent Muslims from recognising this, just as fundamentalist Christians should not be allowed to demur from a critical approach to biblical texts in their ancient near eastern, Second Temple Judaic and Greco-Roman context, because it too is not a miracle.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

This is a question that is often debated by Muslims and Christians.

The Christians refer to the four gospel accounts that provide clear accounts of Christ's crucifixion. Historians, including atheists usually agree Christ was crucified. When they don't its because they don't believe Jesus existed at all.

Muslims believe Jesus wasn't crucified at all based on the following verses in the Quran.

Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia

And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, "Our hearts are wrapped". Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.
And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander,
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

Surah An-Nisa [4:155-158]

These verses are taken literally. Many Muslims believe that the body of Jesus was substituted and another crucified in His place.

Islamic views on Jesus' death - Wikipedia

So who is right, and why?

For what its worth, Baha'is believe Christ was crucified.

I'm curious....

You often quote the Qur'an so not to side track discussion but do the Baha'i's not have any personal doctrinal opinion on the matter of Jesus' crucifixion?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Interesting. I had to read another source as well:

And [they] said, "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God." They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it was made to appear like that to them. Those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition. They certainly did not kill him. God raised him up to Himself. God is almighty and wise. Quran 4:157-158 Christian and Islamic view of the man on the cross - IslamiCity​

Assume, in brief, Muslims don't agree with the Crucifixion because someone of god cannot die as christians claim he did?

What's the difference between the divinity in christ in both Muslim and Christian when they both say christ cannot die whether he was crucified in body and come back in spirit or raised in both spirit and body?

That's a good point you make. Muslims staunchly reject the Divinity of any prophet including Christ and Muhammad. However they will attribute supernatural powers to both which makes Islamic theology appear somewhat contradictory.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

There's no reason I know of not to believe the event took place. So I'll go along with it. "Yes."

.

Several....Where is the evidence the actual tangible evidence that Jesus was crucified? In the Bible, Jesus ascended into heaven. In the Qur'an Jesus ascended into heaven. There is no body, no tomb except what a church believes he was buried at. Christians believed at one point they had the "True Cross" which they used in their fight against Saladin. But we have no tangible evidence of any cross or any execution that has direct tangible evidence to show Jesus was historically crucified. How do we know the event took place besides the Bible?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm curious....

You often quote the Qur'an so not to side track discussion but do the Baha'i's not have any personal doctrinal opinion on the matter of Jesus' crucifixion?

Baha'is believe the Quran to the the authenticated respository of the Word of God. In regards the Quranic crucifixion verses, Baha'is interpret these metaphoriaclly. We therefore accept Jesus was crucified.

 

[Firemorphic]

God arrived in flesh so as to bring new life to the world.
This is something Islam cannot boast.
There is no salvation path or covenant in Islam.
When a Muslim dies their soul fate is at the discretion of Allah. There is no guarantee of paradise unless Allah wills it for the individual.

Well, technically you must believe (but ideally experience gnosis of) in the oneness of God and do good works.
All souls come from and return to God, it's much like Judaism there. Hell is a finite, temporal state of purification - like a kind of catharsis. This is shared with common Jewish interpretations of Gehenna.
Everything is a product of the Divine Will of God, this life is about purification of the heart, meaning the soul ends up back in that union with God symbolized as 'gardens', rather than passing through "fire" first.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Baha'is believe the Quran to the the authenticated respository of the Word of God. In regards the Quranic crucifixion verses, Baha'is interpret these metaphoriaclly. We therefore accept Jesus was crucified.

Yet, the Qur'an says he was not and that a likeness of him was in place. So is your position in relation to the Qur'an to say the likeness was Jesus but it really was not Jesus?

 

[Firemorphic]

Islam is inextricably linked to the Qur'an and the Ḥadīth.
Not only are politics part of the Qur'an, but also commerce in Islam is directly linked to the Qur'an and sustained by the Ḥadīth . Banking and finance are also consistent with the principles of Sharia law. The law particular to Islam and Muslims. Though Muslims can and have prosecuted their Sharia against non-Muslims.
That's a different thread.

This is an area that has been abused by Muslims in the past yes, and is a rampant tool of deception within Wahhabism (the Saudi terrorist ideology).

Islam teaches that the mundane and the spiritual are not separate, hence why monasticism is shunned. The political, however is not at the center of Islam, nor is there any defining political leaning of Islam.

Religious Law is not Political Law and should never be treated as such. Religious Law is a way of teaching mindfulness and self-discipline. The sad thing here, is that aforementioned Wahhabis have taken it as a Political defense of forcing their own ideology onto the world and forcing both Muslims and non-Muslims to convert to their hostile perverted, reformist belief system.

The Sharia itself is largely speculative and cobbled together from a large array of sources varying in authenticity. The idea of a "political Islam" goes against Islam's inherently Individualistic nature - we are our own priests and politicians. The only absolute authority is God and we have to respect the beliefs of others and the society were are living in (but we don't have to believe as they believe).

 

[Dawnofhope]

They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
WHat is meant by that God killed and raised Jesus up?

You might like to reread the Quranic verse. It doesn't say God killed Jesus but it does say He raised Jesus up. In that sense Muslims believe Jesus was lifted up or resurrected to heaven.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yet, the Qur'an says he was not and that a likeness of him was in place. So is your position in relation to the Qur'an to say the likeness was Jesus but it really was not Jesus?

The essence of Jesus was His Spirit, not His physical body. So while they killed the physical body that resembled Jesus they failed to kill His Spirit which was the True Christ.

 

[lukethethird]

You might like to reread the Quranic verse. It doesn't say God killed Jesus but it does say He raised Jesus up. In that sense Muslims believe Jesus was lifted up or resurrected to heaven.

So much to reread, so little time.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Well, technically you must believe (but ideally experience gnosis of) in the oneness of God and do good works.

However, good works do not keep ones salvation in Christianity. Good works are a fruit of ones eternal salvation.

All souls come from and return to God, it's much like Judaism there.

True. The flesh returns to the dust from which it sprang, and the soul to the God that gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

Hell is a finite, temporal state of purification like a kind of catharsis.

Actually those identities are known as Hell and Purgatory and are almost exclusive to Roman Catholicism.

This is shared with common Jewish interpretations of Gehenna.

The fire and brimstone "Hell", often argued to be an interpolation from pagan myth and a transference of the underworld goddess known as Hel, has a documented history of entry into the canon scriptures. Prior to that fire and brimstone as a location for lost souls particularly did not exist in the Hebrews Bible. Gehenna,was the name of the trash dump outside of Jerusalem in ancient Israel.
This was where not just garbage but the body of the poor dead who could not be interred were disposed.
The grave, or the abyss, was the place where lost souls would go according to Hebrew scriptures. Sheol, as it was known.

Everything is a product of the Divine Will of God, this life is about purification of the heart, meaning the soul ends up back in that union with God symbolized as 'gardens', rather than passing through "fire" first.

Everything is God. The passing through fire first is a metaphor for surviving this life.
The whole point of which, per Christian scriptures it is pointed out as, no one comes to the father but through me.(John 14:6)

Jesus was God in flesh. The whole purpose of living "anointed like/Christ like", as God in flesh ourselves, for no thing can be anything but of the source of all, is to traverse this world of fire so as to come to the conscious awareness we are of God now. Therefore, we return to God through arriving at that awareness.
"The Devil", is the antithesis of God. However, the adverse was also created of God.

The land of opposites. God/Devil Dark/Light Etc...
Some call this Dualism. And that has a negative connotation and in the faith is considered Heresy. However, to the elders of the temple Jesus was a Heretic.
Heresy is simply a teaching that is not in conformity with orthodox teachings.