Was Jesus Crucified or Not?

[Firemorphic]

Actually those identities are known as Hell and Purgatory and are almost exclusive to Roman Catholicism.

The fire and brimstone "Hell", often argued to be an interpolation from pagan myth and a transference of the underworld goddess known as Hel, has a documented history of entry into the canon scriptures. Prior to that fire and brimstone as a location for lost souls particularly did not exist in the Hebrews Bible. Gehenna,was the name of the trash dump outside of Jerusalem in ancient Israel.
This was where not just garbage but the body of the poor dead who could not be interred were disposed.
The grave, or the abyss, was the place where lost souls would go according to Hebrew scriptures. Sheol, as it was known.

I'm just using common terminology here but the actual Islamic-Arabic word to refer to it is "Jahannam" and it is a state of being (as experienced by the soul), of purification, of catharsis (as stated) towards that original Unity all things sprung from, God.

There are a lot of words to refer to "heaven" and "hell" within these religions, however literally one takes it is another topic.....

 

[Skwim]

Several....Where is the evidence the actual tangible evidence that Jesus was crucified? In the Bible, Jesus ascended into heaven. In the Qur'an Jesus ascended into heaven. There is no body, no tomb except what a church believes he was buried at. Christians believed at one point they had the "True Cross" which they used in their fight against Saladin. But we have no tangible evidence of any cross or any execution that has direct tangible evidence to show Jesus was historically crucified.

The asserted ascension and empty tomb aside, which are irrelevant, crucifixions were common enough around that time that I find it quite possible that a man, who had put fear in the Jewish establishment and the Roman governor, be found guilty of a capital crime and executed for it.

How do we know the event took place besides the Bible?

We don't, but I have have little trouble accepting an incident, which was quite common back then, as true. Just as I can accept that John’s clothes were made from camel’s hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist, as described in Matthew 3:4.


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[George-ananda]

I recently read Jesus speaking to a medium that I respect and it puts a somewhat different spin on the story. Jesus said he was crucified with an X-shape cross to (near) death and considered dead. He later did revive himself with powers learned during his life. A similar sized man was buried in his stead to throw off authorities. Most people did believe he was crucified and died. He left with his wife Mary Magdalene for France and lived out their lives.

For what its worth, Baha'is believe Christ was crucified.

Why do Baha'is think the Quran gives wrong information (that Jesus was not crucified)?

 

[Salvador]

Two nails, which possibly may have been used to crucify Jesus Christ, were found in the Tomb of Caiaphas; so then, these nails might collaborate the eyewitness reports of Jesus Christ's crucifixion.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I'm just curious. Why would there be an issue over jesus' crucifixion?

A lot of people were crucified during that period and place. We don't question about crucifixion of other people in history. Is it because it's religious in nature?

Personally, I wouldn't see why not. If you asked about the resurrection, I can see why that's an issue.

There were at least two historians of the era. One tells the Christian story, one tells the Muslim story. You choose.

 

[Riders]

You might like to reread the Quranic verse. It doesn't say God killed Jesus but it does say He raised Jesus up. In that sense Muslims believe Jesus was lifted up or resurrected to heaven.

How can you be resurrected if your not dead, your saying he went alive?

 

[Riders]

Two nails, which possibly may have been used to crucify Jesus Christ, were found in the Tomb of Caiaphas; so then, these nails might collaborate the eyewitness reports of Jesus Christ's crucifixion.

WHat roof is in 2 old nails?

 

[Deeje]

The first of your assertion concerning early Christians is not correct. They did believe Jesus was God.
Did the Earliest Christians Really Think Jesus Was God? One Important Example

December 11, 2014

Are you serious? Writings from the second or third century??? The "weeds" had well and truly established themselves by then.

Did you not know that the foretold apostasy was already snapping at the heels of the apostles whilst they were still alive in the first century? With the death of the last apostle John, the Bible's canon was closed....and for very good reason. The foretold "weeds" sown by the devil were going to subvert Christianity in exactly the same way as Judaism before it was also corrupted. The trinity is a product of the apostasy.....it was never a teaching of Jesus.

The first Christians had no trinity because Jesus and the apostles were Jewish, and would never thought to teach such blasphemy.

And that's not an accurate description of the second Adam at all.

1 Corinthians 15:“since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive” (verses 22-23)."

Source and more reading: Why is Jesus called the second Adam? | Biblword.net

I would challenge your source on the interpretation of those verses.

The principle applied to Jesus' sacrifice is a well known one.
God's law required "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life". This denotes equivalency. The life Adam lost for all his children was the perfect, sinless life that God gave him. He paid for his own sin with his own life, but there was no one to give a ransom for the perfect life lost for Adams "many" children. (Romans 5:12)

The "last Adam" was the exact equivalent of the first Adam. He was not half man-half God.

Jesus volunteered to come to earth and give a perfect human life to redeem those "many" who had lost it through no fault on their part. He did not have to be God in order to do that. He just had to be the sinless equivalent of the first Adam.

And because Yahweh is one God and not three, (Deuteronomy 6:4) and he was an immortal God who cannot die, Jesus could not be God himself. He is what he said he was "the son of God"....nowhere is he called "God the Son"....nowhere is there "God the Holy Spirit" either.

Who did Jesus pray to and why did he need to if he remained God in the flesh? How could God know things that Jesus didn't if both are God? When you take the trinity apart.....you see it is satanic nonsense designed to make people offend their God unwittingly. Blasphemy in the OT was punishable by death.

This is why those Christ rejects at the judgment are shocked to find that their "Christianity" was nothing of the sort. (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[Salvador]

WHat roof is in 2 old nails?

That's a picture of a couple of the nails, which allegedly may have pierced Jesus Christ during his Crucifixion, held by somebody standing in front of a lid atop a stone ossuary seen in the background ......

 

[Jollybear]

Why would Jesus not have been crucified if the bible, plus all the extra biblical sources that all say Jesus was crucified?

Theres no sources during the early christian erra that counter argue that Jesus was NOT crucified.

Atleast that im aware of. I certainly would have come across it by now in my research.

So, most likely, he was crucified. Plus, rose from death too. Just had to add that

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There were at least two historians of the era. One tells the Christian story, one tells the Muslim story. You choose.

Shrugs. I don't know. I'm used to the christian version only because that's what I've been around. Any supernatural resurrection I disagree with either way.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Shrugs. I don't know. I'm used to the christian version only because that's what I've been around. Any supernatural resurrection I disagree with either way.

I learned to doubt Christianity from Christians.

 

[Salvador]

Why would Jesus not have been crucified if the bible, plus all the extra biblical sources that all say Jesus was crucified?

Theres no sources during the early christian erra that counter argue that Jesus was NOT crucified.

Atleast that im aware of. I certainly would have come across it by now in my research.

So, most likely, he was crucified. Plus, rose from death too. Just had to add that

How can anybody, without sufficient medical knowledge, have known whether Jesus Christ was really dead or if Jesus Christ was rendered unconscious after His crucifixion?

 

[Jollybear]

How can anybody, without sufficient medical knowledge, have known whether Jesus Christ was really dead or if Jesus Christ was rendered unconscious after His crucifixion?

Scorched, flesh ripped off. Bleeding. Crucified. Speared to the side. Blood and water comes pouring out. Is placed in a tomb. No water, no food for 3 days.

If that isnt dead, i dont know what is.

But, hey, lets just say for the sake of argument that he was not dead but just severely knocked out.

Ok, after waking up, and battered to smitherines, do you think his disciples are gonna be like "Jesus, you rose!"

Not hardly, theyed probably run him immediately to a doctor.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'is believe the Quran to the the authenticated respository of the Word of God. In regards the Quranic crucifixion verses, Baha'is interpret these metaphoriaclly. We therefore accept Jesus was crucified.

" And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them.

Hey Adrian, as usual a couple of questions for you. So they did not kill the true "him" the Spirit? Nor did they crucify that true Spirit. But, they did kill and crucify the flesh and blood body of Jesus? So how does the "made to resemble him" part fit into your metaphor?

So Islam takes a metaphorical verse from the Quran and takes it literally. But both Christians and Baha's take the verses that talk about the crucifixion literally? I mean all the verses? Matthew 27:52 has tombs being opened and the dead people came out and walked around Jerusalem? Mark 15:33 and Luke 23:44 has it get dark for three hours. Then, of course, all the gospels tells the story of Jesus coming to life again.

So some is literal and some is metaphor all mixed together? Muslims have it wrong? Christians have it wrong? And only Baha'is know when something is literal and when something is symbolic?

 

[Dawnofhope]

How can you be resurrected if your not dead, your saying he went alive?

I'm was stating Muslim belief based on the Quran. I'm a Baha'i, not a Muslim so have a different interpretation of the same verses. Baha'is believe Jesus was born to a Virgin Mary, preached the Gospel and then was crucified. He died and went (resurrected) to heaven.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Two nails, which possibly may have been used to crucify Jesus Christ, were found in the Tomb of Caiaphas; so then, these nails might collaborate the eyewitness reports of Jesus Christ's crucifixion.

Yep, they were definitely the two of nails used to crucify Jesus two thousand years old. They look old enough so what other explanation can there be!? Oh...wait a minutes...the're not really big enough to go through the wrists and wood to hold a 70 kg man.

 

[Ellen Brown]

How can anybody, without sufficient medical knowledge, have known whether Jesus Christ was really dead or if Jesus Christ was rendered unconscious after His crucifixion?

Perhaps, by the time they took his body off for burial, he would be unresponsive and had voided? By the next day, perhaps his flesh would "stinketh"?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why do Baha'is think the Quran gives wrong information (that Jesus was not crucified)?

I've had this conversation with another.

Baha'is believe the Quran to the the authenticated respository of the Word of God. In regards the Quranic crucifixion verses, Baha'is interpret these metaphoriaclly. We therefore accept Jesus was crucified.

Yet, the Qur'an says he was not and that a likeness of him was in place. So is your position in relation to the Qur'an to say the likeness was Jesus but it really was not Jesus?

The essence of Jesus was His Spirit, not His physical body. So while they killed the physical body that resembled Jesus they failed to kill His Spirit which was the True Christ.

Hope that explains it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

There were at least two historians of the era. One tells the Christian story, one tells the Muslim story. You choose.

I'm not sure which historians you refer to. The two historians closest to that period to mention Jesus are Josephus and Tacitus and neither support the Islamic view. Another important Jewish historian Philo didn't mention Jesus at all, presumably because he saw His mission as having no particular consequence.