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The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
When the Jewish writers and the readers read that Jehovah is a Mighty God, they know that Mighty and Almighty is the same thing. Being the Mighty God does not lesson Jehovah's in any way. He is also Almighty God and Eternal Father.

It is interesting to explore the original languages as this can reveal things that are not obvious in an English translation.

Jesus is not once called Almighty God. But in Greek he is identified by the word "theos" which simply means "a mighty one". Their gods were mighty ones but far from perfect. Yahweh alone is called "Almighty". Jesus is not Yahweh.

The fact that he is called "Eternal Father" is not what it appears on the surface, and needs deeper investigation. According to Strongs, the word "father" can have several meanings...
  1. father of an individual

  2. of God as father of his people

  3. head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan

  4. ancestor
The fact that Jesus can impart everlasting life to those who put faith in him can invoke the third meaning of the word, and still be valid, after all he is also called "Prince of Peace"...a Prince is the son of a King.

Of course, context is very important.
In every case.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
It is interesting to explore the original languages as this can reveal things that are not obvious in an English translation.

Jesus is not once called Almighty God. But in Greek he is identified by the word "theos" which simply means "a mighty one". Their gods were mighty ones but far from perfect. Yahweh alone is called "Almighty". Jesus is not Yahweh.

No one said that Jesus was called Almighty God. That's not the point of all of this. The point is that Jehovah is called Mighty God not only Almighty God. This shows that MIghty God = Almighty God. That's the point that can't be denied. It seems like the nontrinitarians try to avoid this fact by digressing to a different topic saying, "But Jesus wasn't called Almighty God." We know that. but that's not the point.

You mention the Greek translation but it was written in Hebrew. The word for "God" in Hebrew is "el." The word for mighty is "gibbor," both are used for Mighty God. " [el gibbor] Both are used for Jesus and Jehovah. Never mind that Jesus is not called Almighty God. Point is Jehovah is called Mighty God just as Jesus was.


The fact that he is called "Eternal Father" is not what it appears on the surface, and needs deeper investigation. According to Strongs, the word "father" can have several meanings...
  1. father of an individual

  2. of God as father of his people

  3. head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan

  4. ancestor
The fact that Jesus can impart everlasting life to those who put faith in him can invoke the third meaning of the word, and still be valid, after all he is also called "Prince of Peace"...a Prince is the son of a King.


In every case.

You are taking the scripture out of context by trying to stick those definitions in Eternal Father. For that, you can also put in those definitions when it mentions Father for Jehovah. It does not make any sense.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Please explain this “periscope” just so I do not misunderstand your reference
Wait... I thought you said you were a bible scholar and teacher, yet you don’t recognize the “industry terms?” Look it up: P.E.R.I.C.O.P.E. How embarrassing for you.

Jesus was sent, not by a separate part of himself, but by his God and Father
You’re making the same mistake all anti-Trinitarians make: the mistake of thinking that each Person is a “part.” That’s not what the doctrine says. If you’d actually study the doctrine, you wouldn’t need to waste everyone’s time with straw man fallacies.

by his own admission he said he was “the son of God”.
And that in itself is all the proof one needs! In the world of the biblical writers, “son of god” is a divine title, that is, it identifies that person as a god! Unless you’re prepared to argue that the Bible didn’t really mean that, or that there is more than one god (in direct violation of the monotheistic tenet of the Christian Faith, this statement right here is a claim that Jesus is — in some way — God.

“Above” is not valid. It is your belief, but not supported by scripture
Of course it is. You just either can’t, or don’t want to, see it.

His words are not ambiguous unless you make them so....
Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.
Again: I don’t see where that applies to an understanding of God. You’re misapprehending the texts. Bad form for a “bible teacher,” I should think.

Christendom’s behavior from its inception has been in opposition to Christ’s teachings....bullying, power hungry, and in their conduct, distant from Christ and the apostles
The church is a human institution. Human beings are that way. Moses was a murderer, Jacob was a thief, David was an adulterer, Jesus was a blasphemer. Christ’s teachings aren’t some sort of litmus test, they’re an example. They’re not a standard for membership, they’re an aspiration.

Christianity was to be a “cramped road” with a “narrow gate”.
I disagree. Our ethical behavior and our moral center were to be narrow, focusing on compassion, humility, forbearance, equity, inclusion, welcome, forgiveness, kindness, mercy. The Christian household was to be wide and welcoming. “Come to me ALL who travail and are heavy-laden...”. This is another case of the “scholar” and “teacher” misapprehending the texts. Too bad.

Another periscope? Where are you underwater?
See above. You’re just embarrassing yourself.

"Deeply theological language"? Are you serious?
Yes! The symbology is layered and multivalent. One little simile doesn’t define the sum total of what the text in question “means.”

Who is "us"?
Christians — you know: Apostles, clergy, laity — followers of Jesus.

Who accepts Christ's real presence on the alter? I wasn't aware that the original Christians even had a physical alter. This is a Catholic belief, not a Christian teaching
One would think you could at least spell “altar” correctly. There are a lot of things that you’re apparently not aware of, about which you make assumptions. Actually, it is a Christian teaching, practiced since the inception. Hence, it is also a catholic teaching, since it is universalKy spread among the facets of the Christian household.

The Lord's supper, with the passing of the bread and wine was a replacement for the Passover
Partly. As above, the theology is deep and layered and multivalent.

What are Christians saved from? God's anger at those who fail to do his expressly stated will.
Christians are saved from the masks with which they’ve hidden their true selves. Sorry; I don’t buy the “Angry God” caricature. God’s not a curmudgeon. God’s a loving Daddy who cleans us up when we get dirty.

Tell me how it makes sense to have sin as a barrier between God and man
I didn’t say the barrier was sin. You’re making inferences about things that have been written again. I said that the human/divine concept draws a distinction between the two. what is divine is wholly other than what is human. Otherwise, the fruit that would make the human beings “like God” wouldn’t have been forbidden, ‘way back in Genesis.

The logical conclusion is that Jesus is NOT God and never was....otherwise we would need a Mediator between him and us as well. Do you not see the corners that false beliefs back you into?
There’s your lack of understanding of the doctrine again. This is a straw man fallacy. Jesus is both fully Divine and fully human. By his very nature, he bridges that which is human and that which is divine. Jesus is FULLY one of us — no mediator needed. Jesus is also FULLY divine, no distance between him and divinity.
'Allusion' is not the same as a statement
I see. So you’re dictating that everything must be black-and-white, plainly laid out In order to be a real teaching. Too bad the biblical writers, themselves, were not literalists.

Again, please provide a scripture in which Jesus claimed to be God Almighty or even a statement from God claiming equality with the son or holy spirit
See above: Jesus claimed to be Son of God.

In the majority of cases where Jesus and his Father are mentioned, the third and equal part of the trinity is missing. Why
Why does it need to be there? In many of the places where the Father and the Spirit are mentioned, Jesus is missing. So what?

It was a common practice among Jews to embody the word “God,” (El) even “Yahweh,” in Hebrew names
yeeeahh... If this were a valid argument, then JoEL, EzekieEL, DaniEL, ELijah, ELisha would all be saviors, Son of God, EmmanuEL. This is a weak argument and grasping at straws.

God provides a very good description of himself and his intentions in his word. The one thing we do know with certainty is that you cannot prove a trinity with scripture.....it is at best suggested in verses that are ambiguous or misinterpreted
Why must the Trinity be “proven?” Those of us who understand these things don’t try to “prove” God. The Trinity is a way of understanding divine relationship.

According to my study of the Bible
There’s your first blatant mistake. You don’t even know what a “pericope” is.

According to my study of the Bible, the trinity is a blasphemy according to the Biblical definition of the word. It is a violation of the First Commandment.
No it isn’t. It claims God is One, in accordance with the Shema.

Christendom has built a 'bubble' much like what would be needed to support life on Mars. Just as no man could survive outside of that bubble without life support, so Christendom's teachings cannot survive outside of its own created doctrinal bubble. Their "life support" is the Bible but its full of holes which will ultimately lead to oxygen deprivation, brain damage, and death
I beg your pardon? The bible commands us to “continue in the Apostles’ teaching and fellowship,” and so we do. Every faith has its own “bubble” of theology that serves its needs. That’s the way it works. Christian theology isn’t meant to serve Judaism or Buddhism or Islam. Our “life support” isn’t ancient text, it’s right relationship with God and the Body of Christ.
If Jesus is divine then he is FROM God as he said..."sent" on a mission and successfully completed it. He did not have to be God in order to pay the ransom required to release captives to the result of Adam's sin. (Romans 5:12) He just had to be sinless
Sorry. I don’t buy substitutionary atonement any more than I buy the “Archie Bunker-as-God” thingy. Furthermore, if Jesus was sinless, he cannot have been exclusively human, since, by biblical tenet, ALL humans have fallen.... You’ve just managed to cut off your nose to spite your face. This ONLY works if Jesus is also fully Divine.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Never mind that Jesus is not called Almighty God.
What? “Never mind”? That’s the whole point!
Point is Jehovah is called Mighty God just as Jesus was.

Almighty does not mean mighty? You bet it does! Almighty means Real mighty!

But mighty does not mean ALmighty.

I’m through.
I’d encourage you to keep reading the Scriptures...with prayer, humility, honesty, and hunger.

Just curious, whom do you pray to? Jesus said he was “the Way” to Whom?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
When the Jewish writers and the readers read that Jehovah is a Mighty God, they know that Mighty and Almighty is the same thing. Being the Mighty God does not lesson Jehovah's in any way. He is also Almighty God and Eternal Father.

Of course, context is very important.
In the sense that Jesus is (now) a Mighty God there is no doubt. But the scripture makes clear he was given power and authority. We could talk about this for a while, but this makes the Giver greater than the one receiving the power and authority. It certainly does, however, put the one receiving this in a mighty position. Daniel 7:14 - "He was given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom; so that those of every people, nation, and language should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will not be destroyed."
This obviously took place after Jesus came to the earth and fulfilled his ministry. He was later given dominion, power and authority.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
And that in itself is all the proof one needs! In the world of the biblical writers, “son of god” is a divine title, that is, it identifies that person as a god! Unless you’re prepared to argue that the Bible didn’t really mean that, or that there is more than one god (in direct violation of the monotheistic tenet of the Christian Faith, this statement right here is a claim that Jesus is — in some way — God.

Luke 3:38....Adam was not God.
That was by a Biblical writer, too.

Words without references are just words without meaning.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
No one said that Jesus was called Almighty God. That's not the point of all of this. The point is that Jehovah is called Mighty God not only Almighty God. This shows that MIghty God = Almighty God. That's the point that can't be denied.
I am sorry that you are being so defensive over this issue.
The fact is, a "mighty one" is just that.....and God and Christ both fit that description. Same as the word "Savior" both are saviors in different roles. But there is only one "Almighty" and that designation is NEVER given to Jesus. How can you think this is unimportant?

It seems like the nontrinitarians try to avoid this fact by digressing to a different topic saying, "But Jesus wasn't called Almighty God." We know that. but that's not the point.

It is the point when we are speaking about a doctrine that breaks the First Commandment....it places a servant of God in place of God. There is no equality of Father and son anywhere expressed in the Bible.
This is no light matter....it is actually a life and death issue that we are talking about here.....you had better be very sure of your position on this issue.

Jesus is God's servant...an inferior who always knew his place and everything he did and said was to the glory of his God and Father. Show me where this is not so.

Jesus’ authority as Lord was given to him by the Father. (Matthew 28:18; John 3:35; John 5:19, 30) If he was God that would be ridiculous. He'd be giving those things to his equal self.

You mention the Greek translation but it was written in Hebrew. The word for "God" in Hebrew is "el." The word for mighty is "gibbor," both are used for Mighty God. " [el gibbor] Both are used for Jesus and Jehovah. Never mind that Jesus is not called Almighty God. Point is Jehovah is called Mighty God just as Jesus was.

I have mentioned it, though I cannot remember if it was to you. Jesus is only written about in the Greek scriptures. Hebrew references to him are prophetic.

Strong’s Definitions
גִּבּוֹר gibbôwr, ghib-bore'; or גִּבֹּר gibbôr; (shortened) intensive from the same as H1397; powerful; by implication, warrior, tyrant:—champion, chief, × excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), strong (man), valiant man.

“God Almighty” (ʼEl Shad·daiʹ) is never used with reference to Jesus even prophetically. Same point, different language.

As you can see above, many can be described as "mighty"...but only one can be "Almighty".....that is the meaning of the word...it only applies to Jehovah. Calling God "Mighty" does not diminish him because he is exactly that....very powerful. But so is Jesus, because his power comes from God, just not exercised in the same way....."mighty" is a description not exclusive to God and Christ. Can you see that?

You are taking the scripture out of context by trying to stick those definitions in Eternal Father. For that, you can also put in those definitions when it mentions Father for Jehovah. It does not make any sense.

I have shown you that I have done no such thing. The scriptures confirm what I am saying. Jesus becomes an 'eternal father' to all those who gain everlasting life through his sacrifice. You cannot rely on English translations to provide the truth, especially if they are the product of trinitarian thinking.

You are free to make up your own mind about this....but please understand that taking the wrong side of this issue may well cost a person a place in God's kingdom. No one guilty of blasphemy will be there. The First Commandment is "first" because it is the most important....."you must have no other gods but me"....not even if that "god" is Jehovah's firstborn son. He knew his place and never stepped out of it.....it is apostate Christendom who elevated him to this status.....
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
And that in itself is all the proof one needs! In the world of the biblical writers, “son of god” is a divine title, that is, it identifies that person as a god! Unless you’re prepared to argue that the Bible didn’t really mean that, or that there is more than one god (in direct violation of the monotheistic tenet of the Christian Faith, this statement right here is a claim that Jesus is — in some way — God..

Remember the scripture that says they were all 'gods.' Remember? Who called them gods?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
So... what does that mean: “not an ordinary man?” How does that really classify Jesus as set apart if other, ordinary men can do the things he does?

Do you not understand that, in the ancient world, “son of God” designated one as divine? And, in a monotheistic religion, if Jesus is divine, Jesus must be God.
Jesus was perfect. A perfect man. And an unblemished sacrificial lamb. All others (including Mary) were and are imperfect. Jesus, as well as others including the prophets, had power and ability given to them from God, the Almighty. But Jesus surpassed them all. No one else could take his place.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Wait... I thought you said you were a bible scholar and teacher, yet you don’t recognize the “industry terms?” Look it up: P.E.R.I.C.O.P.E. How embarrassing for you.
You crack me up....."industry terms"....LOL...I am no part of your "industry"...thankfully. Left it many years ago...haven't missed it. :)

I never said I was a scholar.....theological degrees are your hangup, not mine. The apostles never attended a single Rabbinical school because it was not necessary. Christianity was passed from teacher to student, who then became teachers of others. I am a Bible student of 48 years and a teacher for over 40 of those. I am very happy to impart Bible knowledge to people and set them free from the shackles of Christendom's doctrines.....
I am surprised that you include yourself with the rest of Christendom as your 'denomination' is hardly 'mainstream'.

You’re making the same mistake all anti-Trinitarians make: the mistake of thinking that each Person is a “part.” That’s not what the doctrine says. If you’d actually study the doctrine, you wouldn’t need to waste everyone’s time with straw man fallacies.

"Study the doctrine"? Why would I want to study something that the Bible does not teach?
I worship the same God that Jesus did. I don't need to reinvent him or to follow beliefs and practices that put me at odds with him. I think I know who is inventing the strawmen.

And that in itself is all the proof one needs! In the world of the biblical writers, “son of god” is a divine title, that is, it identifies that person as a god!

Yep, that is exactly what we believe Jesus is...."a god"...not THE God. "Theos" means a god. It is used to describe satan....and even human judges.
Adam is described as a "son of God" too...was he divine? Did that designation make Adam a "god"?

Unless you’re prepared to argue that the Bible didn’t really mean that, or that there is more than one god (in direct violation of the monotheistic tenet of the Christian Faith, this statement right here is a claim that Jesus is — in some way — God.

No sorry...you got that all wrong. The trinity teaches more than one god.....each person of the trinity is God. That is not one god...its three.....polytheism plain and simple. 1+1+1=3 not 1.
Do the math...

Again: I don’t see where that applies to an understanding of God. You’re misapprehending the texts. Bad form for a “bible teacher,” I should think.

LOL again...:rolleyes: a Bible teacher needs to teach the Bible not concocted man-made doctrines. Matthew 7:13-14 is self evident...it needs no interpretation. Just read what Jesus said...you might want to read verses 21-23 as well.

The church is a human institution. Human beings are that way. Moses was a murderer, Jacob was a thief, David was an adulterer, Jesus was a blasphemer. Christ’s teachings aren’t some sort of litmus test, they’re an example. They’re not a standard for membership, they’re an aspiration.

Was God expecting his worshippers to be perfect? He knows full well that sin is a hard gig.

Moses was not a murderer, he was guilty of manslaughter, because an Egyptian slave driver was abusing one of his brothers. I don't recall God ever condemning him for that. I don't recall Jacob ever being accused of being a thief either. David was guilty of adultery and even murder but because God himself tried David and knew that his heart was not wicked, he preserved his life, though he did not shield him from the consequences of his actions. Besides which fact he was a forefather of the Messiah.
Jesus was a blasphemer??? Really? :confused:

Christ's teachings are very much a litmus test because they did not come from him, but from his Father.....proving again that he wasn't God. (John 7:16; John 8:31-32)

If they are not a standard for membership then I don't know why he left his teachings and example for us to follow....(1 Peter 2:21)

I disagree. Our ethical behavior and our moral center were to be narrow, focusing on compassion, humility, forbearance, equity, inclusion, welcome, forgiveness, kindness, mercy. The Christian household was to be wide and welcoming. “Come to me ALL who travail and are heavy-laden...”. This is another case of the “scholar” and “teacher” misapprehending the texts. Too bad.

Yep...too bad for some....misapprehending the text? One of us is.....there is nothing to misapprehend...just read it. Its really not that difficult.

You’re just embarrassing yourself.
Again...one of us is...:D

The symbology is layered and multivalent.
If you say so....

Christians — you know: Apostles, clergy, laity — followers of Jesus.
Are all of these qualified to be Christians in your opinion....? I'd leave a couple off that list.
In the first century there were no "clergy/laity" class differences...that is another invention of Christendom. Positions of service were turned into positions of power, leading to absolute corruption. And to be paid to do God's work? Appalling! Whatever happened to "you received free, give free"?

One would think you could at least spell “altar” correctly.
What was that you said about humans being imperfect....?...only applies when you want it to eh?

Actually, it is a Christian teaching, practiced since the inception. Hence, it is also a catholic teaching, since it is universalKy spread among the facets of the Christian household.

Did someone mention spelling mistakes? :D Tsk tsk....

Turning the Memorial emblems into literal flesh and blood makes you a cannibal.

God’s a loving Daddy who cleans us up when we get dirty.

You mean like what happened to the golden calf worshippers....?...or Sodom and Gomorrah? Not too loving on those occasions.....I wonder why?
What about Noah's day? How much of a loving "Daddy" was he then? How dirty is too dirty?

I didn’t say the barrier was sin.

If there was no barrier of sin then a mediator would not be needed between us and God. If Jesus is God, how come we don't need a mediator between us and him? If Jesus is God why are we not told to pray to him? Who did Jesus pray to?

No point in going on.....been there, done that....you can believe as you wish. You will never be able to say that no one told you how blasphemous the trinity is. o_O
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
In the year 367, the Christian bishop of Alexandria in Egypt, Athanasius, was the chief defender of Trinitarianism against Arianism. Some of the churches of the time were not teaching the trinity which caused problems for some of the churches. Why? How did Athanasius convince the people scripturally that the trinity was true? Some religions or nontrinitarian Christians today are growing in numbers. They use the bible to try to disprove the trinity and gain members. How is this possible? Do the scriptures teach the trinity or not?

Not quite right. Athanasius taught the Athanasian creed which is the trinity as you know now, but that does not mean Arius didn't believe in the trinity. Arius had a different idea of the trinity. It was all trinity, but the concepts changed over time, and they had huge disputes over the exact definition, but it was still trinity.

The idea that Trinitarianism is against Arianism is a new way of saying "Arian concept is not the trinity" but it was just a different trinity. Even the man who invented the word Trinity Tertullian didn't believe in the same trinitarian concept of the trinity in comparison to the Trinity as you know now.

Does that mean the concocter of the word Trinity was against the Trinity?

I hope you understand.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Luke 3:38....Adam was not God.
That was by a Biblical writer, too.

Words without references are just words without meaning.
Of course you understand that Luke’s genealogy is trying to connect Jesus with God? This is a theological tool, not a literal genealogy. You’ve just proved my point!
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Jesus was perfect. A perfect man. And an unblemished sacrificial lamb. All others (including Mary) were and are imperfect. Jesus, as well as others including the prophets, had power and ability given to them from God, the Almighty. But Jesus surpassed them all. No one else could take his place.
How? How is that possible? There’s no such thing as a “perfect” human. Jesus even days so. To be perfect is to be God.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You crack me up....."industry terms"....LOL...I am no part of your "industry"...thankfully
Well, THAT’S frickin’ obvious! I don’t think you can explain C. A. T. Where the Bible is concerned.

I never said I was a scholar.....theological degrees are your hangup, not mine.
Teachers who don’t know their subjects aren’t teachers. You know who produced Strong’s Concordance you put so much stock in? Scholars. You know who translated the Bible from ancient languages? Scholars. You know for whom these scholars worked? “Christendom.” Yet you thumb your nose at both. In-frickin’-credible!

The apostles never attended a single Rabbinical school because it was not necessary
the ancient Apostles had no need, because they weren’t translating ancient texts in foreign languages, and they weren’t living in a foreign culture. And they had memorized the Hebrew texts, along with every other good Jewish boy of the period. Apostles of more modern ages do attend seminaries and learn how to exegete, because it’s necessary, in order for them to understand ancient and foreign texts.

Christianity was passed from teacher to student, who then became teachers of others
Because there was no bible as yet.

I am a Bible student of 48 years and a teacher for over 40 of those. I am very happy to impart Bible knowledge to people and set them free from the shackles of Christendom's doctrines
If one practices one’s mistakes, one will learn only one’s mistakes. Not being a scholar and trying to ‘teach the Bible” is a mistake. To quote a great “bible teacher,” “40 years ‘teaching’ the Bible without scholarship is your hang up, not mine.”

I am surprised that you include yourself with the rest of Christendom as your 'denomination' is hardly 'mainstream
Your posts are all assumption, no substance. you aren’t aware of my denomination, so you assume facts not in evidence. It’s obvious that you got nothin’, because now you’re resorting to cheap-shot ad hominem attacks that are based in complete fantasy. You should be Trump’s press secretary. Good job, “Bible Teacher,” for imparting this “knowledge” that isn’t “hung up” on doing actual, honest research.

"Study the doctrine"? Why would I want to study something that the Bible does not teach?
Why would you want to teach something that you haven’t studied? You can’t argue effectively against something you know nothing about. (They teach this sort of useful hermeneutic at Scholar Camp — but you’re not interested, apparently in effective argument.)

I worship the same God that Jesus did
Bully for you. That’s not cogent to the argument.

Yep, that is exactly what we believe Jesus is...."a god"...not THE God.
So you admit you’ve made a major departure from the monotheism of Judaism and the monotheism of Jesus, and the monotheism of the first Apostles. You admit that you are not minding the Bible’s directive to “continue in the Apostles’ teaching.” you admit that you are not part of the church that stems from the Apostles. Now we’re getting somewhere. Something is rotten in Denmark, and it ain’t Christendom or the RCC.

Adam is described as a "son of God" too...was he divine? Did that designation make Adam a "god"?
yeah, that appellation (that’s a “scholar’s word” that means “name” — but you wouldn’t know that, because scholarship’s not your “hang up”) is given to us in Luke’s genealogy, which every scholar knows isn’t a literal genealogy, but a theological (that’s an “industry term” that means “talking about God” — but you probably don’t care, because scholarship’s not your “hang up”) statement, connecting Jesus with ... wait for it ... God! And if you knew anything about ancient Judaic culture (which you don’t, because you dismiss scholarship) you’d know that family and community are the basic units of identity. To connect Jesus to God in a familial sense is to equate Jesus with God — the “God-family” — the Trinity.

No sorry...you got that all wrong. The trinity teaches more than one god.....each person of the trinity is God. That is not one god...its three.....polytheism plain and simple. 1+1+1=3 not 1.
Do the math...
See above. You can’t effectively argue against something you don’t understand. What you’re outlining patently Is. Not. The. Doctrine. Of. The. Trinity.

a Bible teacher needs to teach the Bible not concocted man-made doctrines
Well, you’ve concocted a situation in which you’re not teaching the Bible, but the man-made doctrines of your polytheistic cult.

Matthew 7:13-14 is self evident...it needs no interpretation.
The timeless wisdom of not-scholarship: “The Bible needs no interpretation, my Palawan Learner. Scholarship and interpretation: the Dark Side are these...”

Was God expecting his worshippers to be perfect?
You are expecting Jesus’ followers to be perfect when you misinterpret the “narrow gate” passage the way you do. Not-scholarship breeds inconsistent theology, which is what you’re “imparting” here.

Moses was not a murderer, he was guilty of manslaughter, because an Egyptian slave driver was abusing one of his brothers
“Looking this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.”. “Manslaughter” isn’t mentioned. But from the actual context, “looking this way and that and seeing no one...” indicates premeditation. That’s not “manslaughter,” that’s murder.

So, O Great Teacher of the Bible for 40 Years and Follower of the @Real Jesus™, do you think Jesus approves of premeditated “manslaughter” for beating someone up? Do you think Moses thought he was guilty of a crime by hiding the body and running away? Or is this text “obvious” and “not in need of interpretation?”

Moses committed a crime.

David was guilty of adultery and even murder but because God himself tried David and knew that his heart was not wicked, he preserved his life, though he did not shoeld him fropm the consequences of his actions
You’re making excuses. David committed sin.

Jesus was a blasphemer??? Really?
According to Judaic Law, yes. He was also guilty of insurrection, under Roman law. That’s why he was subject to state execution.
If they are not a standard for membership then I don't know
Well, you’ve finally admitted it: “I don’t know.” You don’t know. That’s been obvious. The context shows that membership is inclusive. Thieves, prostitutes, money-changers — all sorts of social and ethical riff-raff get in.

Yep...too bad for some....misapprehending the text? One of us is.....there is nothing to misapprehend...just read it. Its really not that difficult
Sure! It’s really not difficult to just spout stuff off that has no theological or factual basis and call it “teaching the Bible for 40 years.”

Are all of these qualified to be Christians in your opinion....? I'd leave a couple off that list.
In the first century there were no "clergy/laity" class differences...that is another invention of Christendom
I’m sure you would. Your posts make it clear that you’re into excluding people. You apparently teach that the “Kristian Klub” is exclusively for those who only have to believe certain man-made doctrines about Jesus. It’s an invention of your cult.

In the first century, there certainly were clergy/laity differences. There was a difference between who was an Apostle and who was not. They had specific titles for people who were called to specific ministries: episkopos, diakonos, presbyteros. All you gotta do is read the Bible — no interpretation needed.

And to be paid to do God's work?
Again, if you knew the subject you were arguing against, you wouldn’t look foolish. Clergy aren’t “paid to do God’s work.” That’s not the way it works. At all. Clergy are given a stipend (not a salary for “work done”) so they don’t have to work, so they can be available for ministry all the time. It’s an ecclesiastical (that’s a “scholar-word” that means “churchy” — but you’re possibly unaware, because scholarship isn’t your “thang”) concept, meaning that the assembly calls some to specific ministries, and takes care of their support for not working at a job, because they’re too busy doing ministry for the assembly.

What was that you said about humans being imperfect....?...only applies when you want it to eh?
Scholarship, my dear, minimizes silly mistakes. Like not knowing what “pericope” means.

Turning the Memorial emblems into literal flesh and blood makes you a cannibal
when did I ever mention “transubstantiation?” There you go, making assumptions and implying what’s clearly not there. “Real presence” isn’t “transubstantiation.” I won’t go into the fact that “memorial emblems” isn’t mentioned in the Gospels, but “this is my body...” is. I won’t go into the theological (that’s that “scholar-word” you don’t care about again) reasons why it’s not “cannibalism.” making that argument is nothing more than hyperbole. I would take the time to explain what “real presence” means, and why it’s different from transubstantiation, if I thought for one minute that you’d actually heed the information and not dismiss/ridicule it offhand. A good teacher takes time to learn new information. But that’s not in your wheelhouse, based on what you’ve posted thus far.

You mean like what happened to the golden calf worshippers....?...or Sodom and Gomorrah? Not too loving on those occasions.....I wonder why?
What about Noah's day? How much of a loving "Daddy" was he then? How dirty is too dirty?
Completely dismissing all the passages where God is full of lovingkindness, merciful to all, not punishing as we deserve, loving the whole world, making provisions for welcoming the stranger, caring for the outsider, including the outcast. You probably don’t care why God destroyed Sodom, but it was because they weren’t hospitable. Jesus called God “Daddy.” Somehow, that doesn’t connote waking up with a severed horse’s head next to him in bed, because “Father” was the “angry mob-boss” of the spiritual realms.

The whole “God is angry” motif is theologically untenable.

If there was no barrier of sin then a mediator would not be needed between us and God
How little you understand the theology. How apparent it is that your dismissal of biblical scholarship is hobbling your efforts to “teach.” It’s not particularly a “barrier of sin.” It’s primarily a barrier of difference.
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
How? How is that possible? There’s no such thing as a “perfect” human. Jesus even days so. To be perfect is to be God.
So Adam was not perfectly made? Maybe you think it was foreordained that he chose death rather than be obedient to his Maker? At least Jesus remained faithful and obedient to the end of his life on earth.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Well, THAT’S frickin’ obvious! I don’t think you can explain C. A. T. Where the Bible is concerned.


Teachers who don’t know their subjects aren’t teachers. You know who produced Strong’s Concordance you put so much stock in? Scholars. You know who translated the Bible from ancient languages? Scholars. You know for whom these scholars worked? “Christendom.” Yet you thumb your nose at both. In-frickin’-credible!


the ancient Apostles had no need, because they weren’t translating ancient texts in foreign languages, and they weren’t living in a foreign culture. And they had memorized the Hebrew texts, along with every other good Jewish boy of the period. Apostles of more modern ages do attend seminaries and learn how to exegete, because it’s necessary, in order for them to understand ancient and foreign texts.


Because there was no bible as yet.


If one practices one’s mistakes, one will learn only one’s mistakes. Not being a scholar and trying to ‘teach the Bible” is a mistake. To quote a great “bible teacher,” “40 years ‘teaching’ the Bible without scholarship is your hang up, not mine.”


Your posts are all assumption, no substance. you aren’t aware of my denomination, so you assume facts not in evidence. It’s obvious that you got nothin’, because now you’re resorting to cheap-shot ad hominem attacks that are based in complete fantasy. You should be Trump’s press secretary. Good job, “Bible Teacher,” for imparting this “knowledge” that isn’t “hung up” on doing actual, honest research.


Why would you want to teach something that you haven’t studied? You can’t argue effectively against something you know nothing about. (They teach this sort of useful hermeneutic at Scholar Camp — but you’re not interested, apparently in effective argument.)


Bully for you. That’s not cogent to the argument.


So you admit you’ve made a major departure from the monotheism of Judaism and the monotheism of Jesus, and the monotheism of the first Apostles. You admit that you are not minding the Bible’s directive to “continue in the Apostles’ teaching.” you admit that you are not part of the church that stems from the Apostles. Now we’re getting somewhere. Something is rotten in Denmark, and it ain’t Christendom or the RCC.


yeah, that appellation (that’s a “scholar’s word” that means “name” — but you wouldn’t know that, because scholarship’s not your “hang up”) is given to us in Luke’s genealogy, which every scholar knows isn’t a literal genealogy, but a theological (that’s an “industry term” that means “talking about God” — but you probably don’t care, because scholarship’s not your “hang up”) statement, connecting Jesus with ... wait for it ... God! And if you knew anything about ancient Judaic culture (which you don’t, because you dismiss scholarship) you’d know that family and community are the basic units of identity. To connect Jesus to God in a familial sense is to equate Jesus with God — the “God-family” — the Trinity.


See above. You can’t effectively argue against something you don’t understand. What you’re outlining patently Is. Not. The. Doctrine. Of. The. Trinity.


Well, you’ve concocted a situation in which you’re not teaching the Bible, but the man-made doctrines of your polytheistic cult.


The timeless wisdom of not-scholarship: “The Bible needs no interpretation, my Palawan Learner. Scholarship and interpretation: the Dark Side are these...”


You are expecting Jesus’ followers to be perfect when you misinterpret the “narrow gate” passage the way you do. Not-scholarship breeds inconsistent theology, which is what you’re “imparting” here.


“Looking this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.”. “Manslaughter” isn’t mentioned. But from the actual context, “looking this way and that and seeing no one...” indicates premeditation. That’s not “manslaughter,” that’s murder.

So, O Great Teacher of the Bible for 40 Years and Follower of the @Real Jesus™, do you think Jesus approves of premeditated “manslaughter” for beating someone up? Do you think Moses thought he was guilty of a crime by hiding the body and running away? Or is this text “obvious” and “not in need of interpretation?”

Moses committed a crime.


You’re making excuses. David committed sin.


According to Judaic Law, yes. He was also guilty of insurrection, under Roman law. That’s why he was subject to state execution.

Well, you’ve finally admitted it: “I don’t know.” You don’t know. That’s been obvious. The context shows that membership is inclusive. Thieves, prostitutes, money-changers — all sorts of social and ethical riff-raff get in.


Sure! It’s really not difficult to just spout stuff off that has no theological or factual basis and call it “teaching the Bible for 40 years.”


I’m sure you would. Your posts make it clear that you’re into excluding people. You apparently teach that the “Kristian Klub” is exclusively for those who only have to believe certain man-made doctrines about Jesus. It’s an invention of your cult.

In the first century, there certainly were clergy/laity differences. There was a difference between who was an Apostle and who was not. They had specific titles for people who were called to specific ministries: episkopos, diakonos, presbyteros. All you gotta do is read the Bible — no interpretation needed.


Again, if you knew the subject you were arguing against, you wouldn’t look foolish. Clergy aren’t “paid to do God’s work.” That’s not the way it works. At all. Clergy are given a stipend (not a salary for “work done”) so they don’t have to work, so they can be available for ministry all the time. It’s an ecclesiastical (that’s a “scholar-word” that means “churchy” — but you’re possibly unaware, because scholarship isn’t your “thang”) concept, meaning that the assembly calls some to specific ministries, and takes care of their support for not working at a job, because they’re too busy doing ministry for the assembly.


Scholarship, my dear, minimizes silly mistakes. Like not knowing what “pericope” means.


when did I ever mention “transubstantiation?” There you go, making assumptions and implying what’s clearly not there. “Real presence” isn’t “transubstantiation.” I won’t go into the fact that “memorial emblems” isn’t mentioned in the Gospels, but “this is my body...” is. I won’t go into the theological (that’s that “scholar-word” you don’t care about again) reasons why it’s not “cannibalism.” making that argument is nothing more than hyperbole. I would take the time to explain what “real presence” means, and why it’s different from transubstantiation, if I thought for one minute that you’d actually heed the information and not dismiss/ridicule it offhand. A good teacher takes time to learn new information. But that’s not in your wheelhouse, based on what you’ve posted thus far.


Completely dismissing all the passages where God is full of lovingkindness, merciful to all, not punishing as we deserve, loving the whole world, making provisions for welcoming the stranger, caring for the outsider, including the outcast. You probably don’t care why God destroyed Sodom, but it was because they weren’t hospitable. Jesus called God “Daddy.” Somehow, that doesn’t connote waking up with a severed horse’s head next to him in bed, because “Father” was the “angry mob-boss” of the spiritual realms.

The whole “God is angry” motif is theologically untenable.


How little you understand the theology. How apparent it is that your dismissal of biblical scholarship is hobbling your efforts to “teach.” It’s not particularly a “barrier of sin.” It’s primarily a barrier of difference.
Allow me to say something -- the churches that have homosexual ministers or condone homosexuality vs those that do not -- is that just a difference of theology between these churches?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So Adam was not perfectly made? Maybe you think it was foreordained that he chose death rather than be obedient to his Maker? At least Jesus remained faithful and obedient to the end of his life on earth.
I think we're all "perfectly made." But I also know from the bible that "all humans sin." And I don't think "Adam's sin" was "disobedience." Adam's sin was "trying to cross the boundary between humanity and Divinity."
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Allow me to say something -- the churches that have homosexual ministers or condone homosexuality vs those that do not -- is that just a difference of theology between these churches?
No. It's also a difference of ethics, a difference of praxis, a difference of commitment to justice and equity, and a difference in exegesis and interpretation of the texts.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
I am sorry that you are being so defensive over this issue.
The fact is, a "mighty one" is just that.....and God and Christ both fit that description. Same as the word "Savior" both are saviors in different roles. But there is only one "Almighty" and that designation is NEVER given to Jesus. How can you think this is unimportant?.....

I'm not being defensive. I'm just seeing that Jesus was given a title here similar to Jehovah when he was called "God". The adjective "Mighty" was attached we can all see. But by saying that the adjective "Almighty" is greater than the adjective "Mighty", when Jehovah is called "Mighty God" you are watering down what God is, A Mighty God, just what the scriptures say. The Jews knew that "Mighty" did not lesson the adjective to mean something lower than "Almighty" because than you were giving God an inferior title. Mighty God and Almighty God referring to Jehovah mean the same thing. Nothing lower.

At John 1:1 in the original Greek, it seems that the writer knew about this scripture of Jesus being called "God" with a capital "G" because it reads in a literal translation "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word." Notice that it says "God was the word." This is the actual word-for-word translation. Godwastheword.gif

In John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus, "The Lord of me, and the God of me." If Jesus was not God, but "a" god, then shouldn't Jesus have corrected Thomas? Shouldn't Jesus have said, "No, Thomas, I am not the Almighty God. I am a god or the Mighty God"? But Jesus did not.
 
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