• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I would say yes they worked together but as Jesus being the word of God.

At Hebrews 1:8 God says "O God" to Jesus,
But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Do you know where Paul is quoting from? Psalms 45 6. Read vs.7.

Here is a source you might enjoy (then again, you might not). After going to the website, scroll down to 45, then touch the link in vs.6:

The Bible book of Psalms
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Right relationship is defined by reciprocity, whose nature is equity.
It is? When you talk about right relationship, I'm just wondering what you mean. For instance, if someone is good to me and I decide to show gratitude, how is that equality?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I think you’re wrong. Bread of Life, Way, Truth, Life — all the others too — these are poetic ways of climbing Divinity.

I sometimes wonder if you think about your own questions before you ask them....?

"Poetic ways of claiming divinity"? What is "divinity" according to your understanding?
Does it always mean being God? Or can a divine personage simply be "from God" or be "God-like"?

According to Strongs...."theios" (divine) means.....

Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks

  2. spoken of the only and true God,
    1. of Christ

    2. Holy Spirit

    3. the Father
θεῖος theîos, thi'-os; from G2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity):—divine".

"The general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks"...who were polytheistic. "Theos" to them was any god.
"Theos: means...."a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities".
Satan is called "theos" in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4. Jesus said that human judges are called 'gods' by God himself. (Psalm 82:6; John 10:34-35)

Focus on what it means with reference to the Father, son and holy spirit.
Does "divine" only mean God...or can it refer to that which is "from God"? Can the son and holy spirit be from God, without being God? The scriptures say Yes!

If the trinity is a foundational doctrine of Christendom, accepted by billions of people as gospel truth, then how is it that "few" are said to be on "the road to life"? (Matthew 7:13-14)
Its the "many" by contrast who are rejected as those Christ "never knew". (Matthew 7:21-23) It would be a terrible thing to bet your life on something so flimsy, so incomprehensible and God-dishonoring, if it disqualified those who blindly accept it, from the life that God is going to restore to this earth.....with a place under the rulership of God's Kingdom. Everyone is so focused on going to heaven that forget that the earth is where God created us to live. That has never changed as far as I can see. (Revelation 21:2-4)

How could a mere human be the Bread of Life?

Where did the original "bread from heaven" come from that saved the Israelites from physical starvation in the wilderness for 40 years? (Psalm 78:22-24)

Jesus said that he too was "the bread from heaven" (John 6:31-32, 48-51, 53) He said he was "sent" by his Father, whom he called "the only true God" and he would know surely who his Father is in relation to himself? (John 17:3)

Symbolically 'eating his flesh and drinking his blood' made his disciples "one" with him, just as he was "one" with his Father. (John 10:30...John 17:22) This is a unity of purpose, not making his disciples part of a trinity, but in a special bond of unity that will see them all as rulers and priests in his Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) Not all Christians are chosen for this assignment. These kings and priests will have earthly subjects and bring them back to God's original purpose to have this earth "filled" with those who want to "do the will of God". (Matthew 7:21-23)

There is so much scripture that disproves the trinity and none that are a clear statement about it. For such an important belief as the very nature of God, don't you think that a clear statement is required to build a foundation on?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It is? When you talk about right relationship, I'm just wondering what you mean. For instance, if someone is good to me and I decide to show gratitude, how is that equality?
There is an equitable exchange of energy in giving, graciously receiving, and in paying forward.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I'm really not sure what your question means. I don't know John Doe. But I do know what Jesus did for me.
It means, if Jesus is not God, then he’s obviously just human like every other bipedal hominid. Why should it make any real difference which one of these hominids we “believe in?”

What did Jesus do for you, if he’s simply a man?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
What is "divinity" according to your understanding?
Does it always mean being God? Or can a divine personage simply be "from God" or be "God-like"?
If we are true monotheists, then all divinity is God. If Divinity also includes “from God,” then all creation would be divine. But, within the biblical understanding (ref. Tower of Babel pericope, among others), “divinity” differentiates God from God’s creation. Therefore, If Jesus is “from God,” or even “Godlike” (remember: we are the very image of God, and yet are not deemed “Godlike), then Jesus is fully differentiated from God, and is just one of us.
Focus on what it means with reference to the Father, son and holy spirit.
Does "divine" only mean God...or can it refer to that which is "from God"? Can the son and holy spirit be from God, without being God? The scriptures say Yes!
Actually, the scriptures don’t say that. See above.

If the trinity is a foundational doctrine of Christendom, accepted by billions of people as gospel truth, then how is it that "few" are said to be on "the road to life"?
That statement in Matthew isn’t addressing how one understands God.
Jesus said that he too was "the bread from heaven" (John 6:31-32, 48-51, 53) He said he was "sent" by his Father, whom he called "the only true God" and he would know surely who his Father is in relation to himself? (John 17:3)
Yes. It’s in direct reference to the Exodus pericope about the manna — God’s act of salvation for the Israelites. This is all deeply theological language, and not necessarily empirical. Who Saves? God. Jesus doesn’t save, then, unless Jesus is God. I won’t go into the theology of how God’s acts through Jesus save us.

Symbolically 'eating his flesh and drinking his blood' made his disciples "one" with him, just as he was "one" with his Father.
Most of us don’t believe it is at all “symbolic.” Most of us (Apostles included — and the historic stance of the Faith) acknowledge Christ’s real Presence on the altar. God is unity. Jesus is an icon of Faith, because Jesus is seen as the Mediator and Advocate, who bridges that biblical separation between humanity and ... wait for it ... Divinity. In order for Jesus to that, Jesus must be both human and Divine, IOW, both fully human and fully God.

There is so much scripture that disproves the trinity and none that are a clear statement about it. For such an important belief as the very nature of God, don't you think that a clear statement is required to build a foundation on?
There’s so much scripture that alludes to the Trinity. Jesus is “Emmanuel,” or GOD with us. Not “Jesus with us.” Jesus had a miraculous birth, just as did the gods of the surrounding cultures.

We cannot know God’s nature. Heck! We can’t even fully comprehend our own nature! It’s folly and a waste of spiritual time to try and put God in a definitive box. The doctrine of the Trinity is, by nature, somewhat vague, because our notions of God must be vague. As I told another poster, we spend too much time trying to define God, rather than trying to explore God and how we relate to God. The Trinity provides space for exploration and encounter to happen, without trying to pin God down too much.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
Yeah, tell me about it! Not just “a religion”, but particular doctrines as well.

Really? You seem to be attached to the trinity, certainly not against.

I'm really trying to remain neutral as I'm doing the research. I'm finding that there is overwhelming evidence on what the majority of historians and theologians say about the early Christians believing that Jesus was God. I'm also seeing that the scriptures can be used to support Athanasius' claims. I think I can see this while remaining neutral. For centuries, most Christians and theologians believed in the trinity. Did they all just make it up or did they see it in the scriptures and early church traditions? I'm not following any church organization and I'm sure not making it up. I'm really trying to remain as neutral as possible, posting my findings, and reading other posts that might debunk the trinity. So far I'm not seeing enough scriptural and historical evidence in favor of the nontrinitarian belief. I'm only hearing a lot of speculations and assumptions. I think when one makes a lot of speculations and assumptions they are just repeating what they learned from a church organization and are not really studying the scriptures with an open mind. There is a lot of bias that creeps in when you are just going by what the preacher said.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I'm really trying to remain neutral as I'm doing the research. I'm finding that there is overwhelming evidence on what the majority of historians and theologians say about the early Christians believing that Jesus was God.

I used to think that, too; but then, through research & deep study, I came to the opposite conclusion.

Isaac Newton studied the Scriptures ‘every day’, he said. He was non-trinitarian. In fact, he was one of the discoverers that the Johannine Comma was spurious.


What research, exactly? From what sources?
 
Last edited:

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
You know, I feel like it's the terminology we use that's getting in the way of our understanding. You use the word "Being." I guess I'm uncomfortable with that term simply because to me it means, "a living creature," and I don't see God as "a living creature" comprised of three "parts." To me, God is an association of three diving beings who are, as @URAVIP2ME put it, "one in unity, faith, agreement, purpose, goal [and] harmony." They don't have to be a single "Being" in order to be "one God" if they are united in the only way that truly matters.
Interesting reply ^above^ Katzpur, and I think in the sense of ' a living creature ' we think of a creation instead of a Creator - Revelation 4:11.
But the word ' being ' in Bible speak, could mean as existing or living, so in the full sense of Psalms 90:2 then God is a Being, an eternal Being.
Since everything comes from Creator God through Jesus, then it can be said God is a Being, a Divine Being.

Since God's spirit is a neuter "it' then to me God's spirit is Not a being but what God uses to create - Psalms 104:30
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I'm really trying to remain neutral as I'm doing the research. I'm finding that there is overwhelming evidence on what the majority of historians and theologians say about the early Christians believing that Jesus was God. I'm also seeing that the scriptures can be used to support Athanasius' claims. I think I can see this while remaining neutral.

Do you understand that Jesus and his apostles foretold that the same kind of apostasy that brought down Judaism, was also going to bring down Christianity?

It was beginning even in the first century; men were trying to bring in their own ideas......but the presence of the apostles kept it from spreading. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-12) The apostle Paul warned...warned: “Shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene.” (2 Timothy 2:16-17)
After the last apostle, John passed away, that apostasy did indeed “spread like gangrene” through the congregations......it is in fallen human nature to run away with what they want to believe, rather than what God’s word says....to introduce ideas that took people away from God’s word and substituting the “traditions of men”. So we see nothing that was not foretold and expected. (Matthew 15:7-9)

For centuries, most Christians and theologians believed in the trinity. Did they all just make it up or did they see it in the scriptures and early church traditions?

Most “Christians and theologians” are a product of that apostasy.
Christendom is a product of that apostasy. Anything that forms “theology” in the centuries after the death of Christ and his apostles, was a gradual departure from Christ’s original teachings. By the 4th century, spiritually bankrupt “Christianity” was hijacked by a pagan politician, and that gave birth to Roman Catholicism. This corrupted form of Christianity held absolute tyrannical power over the people of its empire for 1500 years. Fed up with the corruption, Martin Luther bravely tried to do something about it....he wasn’t seeking to start a revolution, but that is what happened. The Reformation lit a fire that spread around the world. It destroyed the power of the Roman church, but rather than unite Christians, it divided them even further as men began to promote their own ideas and to lead people in many new directions. But the basic doctrines of the RCC were retained.

If Jesus was God, then there are three gods that are worshipped in Christendom. Each is identified as “God”.....but the Jews knew no such God. The Shema identified “one” God, not three. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Do you think it’s co-incidental that trinities of gods are found throughout pagan religions, but missing in the other Abraham faiths?

I'm not following any church organization and I'm sure not making it up. I'm really trying to remain as neutral as possible, posting my findings, and reading other posts that might debunk the trinity. So far I'm not seeing enough scriptural and historical evidence in favor of the nontrinitarian belief. I'm only hearing a lot of speculations and assumptions.

No matter what “church organisation” people follow, you will find three basic doctrines that did not originate in either Biblical Judaism (Jesus’ religion) or Christianity. (Christ’s teachings through his apostles.)

1) A trinity is of gods, but claiming no polytheism.
2) Belief in an immortal soul.
3) Those souls ending up in either a burning hell or heavenly bliss.

None of those doctrines are of Biblical origin.

Unless you study the Bible and not church doctrine, you would not know this.

I think when one makes a lot of speculations and assumptions they are just repeating what they learned from a church organization and are not really studying the scriptures with an open mind. There is a lot of bias that creeps in when you are just going by what the preacher said.

I was raised with Christendom’s doctrines and had no reason, when I was a church member, to question any of them. But I had not studied the Bible. All that was offered were a few selected verses that seemed on the surface of it to support those virtually universal church doctrines. But when I began to question those teachings, I came to understand how to read the Bible.....context, and a sound knowledge of what the whole Bible teaches, was vital to understanding. Without those things, you can be fed anything and swallow it whole.

It is important to understand too that Jesus foretold the source of those apostate teachings......

“The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’” (Matthew 13:24-30)

Jesus went on to identify the sower of those “weeds”....as satan the devil, who sowed those seeds of fake Christianity “while men were sleeping”. (Matthew 13:36-43) Spiritually ‘sleepy’ men were not awake enough to stand up for the truth. By their behavior, we see that the Christ was never among them. Their conduct was “anti-Christ”.

Who benefits from sowing a corrupted, counterfeit form of Christianity? Think about it....by deceptively introducing a form of worship that dishonoured God and his Christ by fooling people into breaking God’s Law, blasphemously placing another “god” in his place, he renders their worship as invalid....unacceptable to the God that they imagine they are serving. Deception is the devil’s MO. He is an expert.

Dig deeper.....we have......and what was uncovered was appalling.
Where is the Father in Christendom’s teachings? :(
 
Last edited:

SLPCCC

Active Member
Mighty is not Almighty, is it?

Who taught Jesus? Did he say? Yes, constantly.
Why did he say “let, not my will, but yours take place”?

You are playing with semantics to support your beliefs. The point is that Jehovah is called Mighty God. This is His title. Just like God is his title with a capital "G". Jehovah is also the Father. Jesus is called "Eternal Father"

Israel has only one God and Before Him there was no God formed, And there will be none after Him. Isaiah is abundantly clear:

"'You are My witnesses,' declares the Lord [YHWH, or Jehovah], 'And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me,'" (Isaiah 43:10)



And how will he be an “Eternal Father”? Father means life-giver, and when he gives life back to those who will be resurrected, in the “Last Day”. John 5:28-29; John 6:40,44.

John 5:28-29 Do not be surprised at this; the time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice and come out of their graves: those who have done good will rise and live, and those who have done evil will rise and be condemned.

John 6:40,44: For what my Father wants is that all who see the Son and believe in him should have eternal life. And I will raise them to life on the last day." . . . People cannot come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me; and I will raise them to life on the last day.

You took those scriptures out of context to support your beliefs. It says nothing about Jesus being called Father.

Furthermore, Paul pointed out in 1 Corinthians 15:45, the role Jesus plays. Pretty self-explanatory, relating this to the subject at hand. (What was lost for mankind, was perfect, human life; through sacrificing his perfect human life, and giving its value to Jehovah, he bought it back.

You are fighting the facts! You have done it before and you are doing it again.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
Yes, Jesus is in the position of a mighty god. He was the reflection of His Father when he was in human form. But he was not a mighty God at that point, although obviously was given power by God, his Father. Hebrews 1:2 says, "but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe." Did Jesus appoint himself as "heir of all things"?

The scripture does not say he was a mighty god with an article and a small "g". It calls Him Mighty God and Eternal Father. When Jesus was on earth he was no longer the "word" he was in human form. He became the son. The son played the role of a real son of God having heir of all things that God give him.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
Do you understand that Jesus and his apostles foretold that the same kind of apostasy that brought down Judaism, was also going to bring down Christianity?

It was beginning even in the first century; men were trying to bring in their own ideas......but the presence of the apostles kept it from spreading. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-12) The apostle Paul warned...warned: “Shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene.” (2 Timothy 2:16-17)
After the last apostle, John passed away, that apostasy did indeed “spread like gangrene” through the congregations......it is in fallen human nature to run away with what they want to believe, rather than what God’s word says....to introduce ideas that took people away from God’s word and substituting the “traditions of men”. So we see nothing that was not foretold and expected. (Matthew 15:7-9)



Most “Christians and theologians” are a product of that apostasy.
Christendom is a product of that apostasy. Anything that forms “theology” in the centuries after the death of Christ and his apostles, was a gradual departure from Christ’s original teachings. By the 4th century, spiritually bankrupt “Christianity” was hijacked by a pagan politician, and that gave birth to Roman Catholicism. This corrupted form of Christianity held absolute tyrannical power over the people of its empire for 1500 years. Fed up with the corruption, Martin Luther bravely tried to do something about it....he wasn’t seeking to start a revolution, but that is what happened. The Reformation lit a fire that spread around the world. It destroyed the power of the Roman church, but rather than unite Christians, it divided them even further as men began to promote their own ideas and to lead people in many new directions. But the basic doctrines of the RCC were retained.

If Jesus was God, then there are three gods that are worshipped in Christendom. Each is identified as “God”.....but the Jews knew no such God. The Shema identified “one” God, not three. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Do you think it’s co-incidental that trinities of gods are found throughout pagan religions, but missing in the other Abraham faiths?



No matter what “church organisation” people follow, you will find three basic doctrines that did not originate in either Biblical Judaism (Jesus’ religion) or Christianity. (Christ’s teachings through his apostles.)

1) A trinity is of gods, but claiming no polytheism.
2) Belief in an immortal soul.
3) Those souls ending up in either a burning hell or heavenly bliss.

None of those doctrines are of Biblical origin.

Unless you study the Bible and not church doctrine, you would not know this.



I was raised with Christendom’s doctrines and had no reason, when I was a church member, to question any of them. But I had not studied the Bible. All that was offered were a few selected verses that seemed on the surface of it to support those virtually universal church doctrines. But when I began to question those teachings, I came to understand how to read the Bible.....context, and a sound knowledge of what the whole Bible teaches, was vital to understanding. Without those things, you can be fed anything and swallow it whole.

It is important to understand too that Jesus foretold the source of those apostate teachings......

“The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’” (Matthew 10:24-30)

Jesus went on to identify the sower of those “weeds”....as satan the devil, who sowed those seeds of fake Christianity “while men were sleeping”. (Matthew 10:36-43) Spiritually ‘sleepy’ men were not awake enough to stand up for the truth. By their behavior, we see that the Christ was never among them. Their conduct was “anti-Christ”.

Who benefits from sowing a corrupted, counterfeit form of Christianity? Think about it....by deceptively introducing a form of worship that dishonoured God and his Christ by fooling people into breaking God’s Law, blasphemously placing another “god” in his place, he renders their worship as invalid....unacceptable to the God that they imagine they are serving. Deception is the devil’s MO. He is an expert.

Dig deeper.....we have......and what was uncovered was appalling.
Where is the Father in Christendom’s teachings? :(

You put a lot down for me to study and comment. I can say this. Everyone who is in a religion will point to the others as false and say that their religion is the true religion. The Mormons will say that they have the true religion and they will back it up. The Catholics will say that their religion is the true religion and back up. The Jehovah's Witnesses will do the same. Even the small cults that are around do the same thing. They point to the others as false. The only things that God put down to help us out in determining which Christian teaching are the true teachings of God, is the historical facts and the Bible. Anything else is from the Devil. It's important to stick with the scriptures and keep an open mind. Bringing the teaching of ones Church may be false. Why should we accept yours as truth and not the Momon's? Let's stick with the scriptures.

I should also add that for those who may think that the bible has been changed, are saying that God was not able to protect the scriptures. If this is the case, then even today, He is not able to protect the scriptures.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
You are playing with semantics to support your beliefs. The point is that Jehovah is called Mighty God. This is His title. Just like God is his title with a capital "G". Jehovah is also the Father. Jesus is called "Eternal Father"

Israel has only one God and Before Him there was no God formed, And there will be none after Him. Isaiah is abundantly clear:

"'You are My witnesses,' declares the Lord [YHWH, or Jehovah], 'And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me,'" (Isaiah 43:10)

John 5:28-29 Do not be surprised at this; the time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice and come out of their graves: those who have done good will rise and live, and those who have done evil will rise and be condemned.

John 6:40,44: For what my Father wants is that all who see the Son and believe in him should have eternal life. And I will raise them to life on the last day." . . . People cannot come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me; and I will raise them to life on the last day.

You took those scriptures out of context to support your beliefs. It says nothing about Jesus being called Father.



You are fighting the facts! You have done it before and you are doing it again.

I’m fighting the facts....that’s rich.

I’d rather not be part of a group promoting Jesus as God, at the same time they disobey Him by showing hate for their brothers during times of war because their respective countries tell them to, which has happened over and over. Titus 1:16; Acts of the Apostles 5:29; Matthew 5:44; John 13:34-35; John 15 10,12,14,17; James 4:4; 1 John 3:10-15

As you mentioned, “everything else is from the Devil”. That’s just not teachings, that includes actions!

Take care, my cousin.
 
Last edited:

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You are playing with semantics to support your beliefs. The point is that Jehovah is called Mighty God. This is His title. Just like God is his title with a capital "G". Jehovah is also the Father. Jesus is called "Eternal Father"

Israel has only one God and Before Him there was no God formed, And there will be none after Him. Isaiah is abundantly clear:

"'You are My witnesses,' declares the Lord [YHWH, or Jehovah], 'And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me,'" (Isaiah 43:10)





John 5:28-29 Do not be surprised at this; the time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice and come out of their graves: those who have done good will rise and live, and those who have done evil will rise and be condemned.

John 6:40,44: For what my Father wants is that all who see the Son and believe in him should have eternal life. And I will raise them to life on the last day." . . . People cannot come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me; and I will raise them to life on the last day.

You took those scriptures out of context to support your beliefs. It says nothing about Jesus being called Father.



You are fighting the facts! You have done it before and you are doing it again.
Are you saying that Jehovah is Mighty but not Almighty? Also, do you think, say, or believe that context in a scripture is important?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It means, if Jesus is not God, then he’s obviously just human like every other bipedal hominid. Why should it make any real difference which one of these hominids we “believe in?”

What did Jesus do for you, if he’s simply a man?
Jesus was not an ordinary man, that's for sure. Ordinary men cannot walk on water (although Peter did for a while), they cannot raise the dead (although Elijah did). What Jesus did for me was show me the way to life by his example and by having holy spirit sent to his followers.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
Are you saying that Jehovah is Mighty but not Almighty? Also, do you think, say, or believe that context in a scripture is important?


When the Jewish writers and the readers read that Jehovah is a Mighty God, they know that Mighty and Almighty is the same thing. Being the Mighty God does not lesson Jehovah's in any way. He is also Almighty God and Eternal Father.

Of course, context is very important.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Jesus was not an ordinary man, that's for sure. Ordinary men cannot walk on water (although Peter did for a while), they cannot raise the dead (although Elijah did). What Jesus did for me was show me the way to life by his example and by having holy spirit sent to his followers.
So... what does that mean: “not an ordinary man?” How does that really classify Jesus as set apart if other, ordinary men can do the things he does?

Do you not understand that, in the ancient world, “son of God” designated one as divine? And, in a monotheistic religion, if Jesus is divine, Jesus must be God.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If we are true monotheists, then all divinity is God. If Divinity also includes “from God,” then all creation would be divine. But, within the biblical understanding (ref. Tower of Babel pericope, among others), “divinity” differentiates God from God’s creation.

Please explain this “periscope” just so I do not misunderstand your reference.

Therefore, If Jesus is “from God,” or even “Godlike” (remember: we are the very image of God, and yet are not deemed “Godlike), then Jesus is fully differentiated from God, and is just one of us.

There is that small matter of being “sent” and with a divine appointment for a specific mission. Jesus was sent, not by a separate part of himself, but by his God and Father. He was definitely “from God” and by his own admission he said he was “the son of God”. Can you provide one scripture that has Jesus actually claiming to be the God he prayed to....the God whose will he deferred to...the God whom he continued to worship even after his return to heaven?

Actually, the scriptures don’t say that. See above.

“Above” is not valid. It is your belief, but not supported by scripture.

That statement in Matthew isn’t addressing how one understands God.

His words are not ambiguous unless you make them so....
Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.

15 Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.


In a situation where false prophets are active, you can see that actions speak louder than words. A good tree has no rotten fruit...nothing in its history to be ashamed of...no bloodshed, no torture or murder of others who dared to disagree.
Christendom’s behavior from its inception has been in opposition to Christ’s teachings....bullying, power hungry, and in their conduct, distant from Christ and the apostles.

Christianity was to be a “cramped road” with a “narrow gate”.

The broad road has an off ramp with a narrow gate leading to Jesus.....some speeding by would not even see it...most are not even looking for it. The broad road is a superhighway with no speed limits and no real sacrifice needed to enjoy the ride.

The cramped road is a tough journey, with an entryway that is narrow. The road is difficult, not because Jesus or his Father made it so, but because our enemy has planted land mines all along the route. It takes courage and great faith to stick out the journey because of the destination...we may well get there bruised and battered.

The broad road is a dead end with a huge pile up at the end resulting in massive loss of life.....but we all have the choice about which road we decide to travel.

Jesus said to look at what people do, not just what they say. Talk is cheap.The cramped road is not an easy journey because it requires sacrifice...to pick up our own 'stauros' and follow in Jesus' footsteps...it may require our own death.

Yes. It’s in direct reference to the Exodus periscope about the manna — God’s act of salvation for the Israelites. This is all deeply theological language, and not necessarily empirical. Who Saves? God. Jesus doesn’t save, then, unless Jesus is God. I won’t go into the theology of how God’s acts through Jesus save us.

Another periscope? Where are you underwater? :confused:
"Deeply theological language"? Are you serious? How can Jesus being the symbolic "manna" be so deeply theological that his reference is completely lost on the Bible student? Like the Passover Lamb....the symbolism is apparent and completely obvious to a dedicated, unindoctrinated Bible student.

Most of us don’t believe it is at all “symbolic.” Most of us (Apostles included — and the historic stance of the Faith) acknowledge Christ’s real Presence on the altar.

Who is "us"? Who accepts Christ's real presence on the alter? I wasn't aware that the original Christians even had a physical alter. This is a Catholic belief, not a Christian teaching.

The Lord's supper, with the passing of the bread and wine was a replacement for the Passover.
Christ was the "Lamb of God", symbolized by the Passover Lamb, which was sacrificed and its blood placed on the doorposts to save the ones who did as Moses told them, and put faith in that blood to save them. What were they saved from? God's final denunciation to Pharaoh's gods. What are Christians saved from? God's anger at those who fail to do his expressly stated will. (Matthew 7:21-23)

God is unity. Jesus is an icon of Faith, because Jesus is seen as the Mediator and Advocate, who bridges that biblical separation between humanity and ... wait for it ... Divinity. In order for Jesus to that, Jesus must be both human and Divine, IOW, both fully human and fully God.

Tell me how it makes sense to have sin as a barrier between God and man, requiring a Mediator as a "go between", who is also God but this God doesn't require one? :shrug:

The logical conclusion is that Jesus is NOT God and never was....otherwise we would need a Mediator between him and us as well. Do you not see the corners that false beliefs back you into?

There’s so much scripture that alludes to the Trinity.

'Allusion' is not the same as a statement. Again, please provide a scripture in which Jesus claimed to be God Almighty or even a statement from God claiming equality with the son or holy spirit. In the majority of cases where Jesus and his Father are mentioned, the third and equal part of the trinity is missing. Why?

Jesus words at John 17:3 says that knowing God and Christ are necessary for everlasting life....why no mention of the holy spirit? Is it a trinity or a duality that you are promoting?

Jesus is “Emmanuel,” or GOD with us. Not “Jesus with us.” Jesus had a miraculous birth, just as did the gods of the surrounding cultures.

I'm sorry....what?
The identity of Jesus Christ as "Immanuel" did not mean he was the incarnation of God, ‘God in the flesh,’ which proponents of the trinity claim is implied by the meaning of Immanuel....“With Us Is God.” It was a common practice among Jews to embody the word “God,” (El) even “Yahweh,” in Hebrew names. Even today Immanuel is the proper name of many men, none of whom are incarnations of God. Just about every "J" name in the English translations of the OT was an incorporation of the divine name. Any name with "El" incorporated "God" in their name.

We cannot know God’s nature. Heck! We can’t even fully comprehend our own nature! It’s folly and a waste of spiritual time to try and put God in a definitive box.

God provides a very good description of himself and his intentions in his word. The one thing we do know with certainty is that you cannot prove a trinity with scripture.....it is at best suggested in verses that are ambiguous or misinterpreted.

The doctrine of the Trinity is, by nature, somewhat vague, because our notions of God must be vague. As I told another poster, we spend too much time trying to define God, rather than trying to explore God and how we relate to God. The Trinity provides space for exploration and encounter to happen, without trying to pin God down too much.

According to my study of the Bible, the trinity is a blasphemy according to the Biblical definition of the word. It is a violation of the First Commandment. It is no space to explore anything about God. Christendom has built a 'bubble' much like what would be needed to support life on Mars. Just as no man could survive outside of that bubble without life support, so Christendom's teachings cannot survive outside of its own created doctrinal bubble. Their "life support" is the Bible but its full of holes which will ultimately lead to oxygen deprivation, brain damage, and death.

Do you not understand that, in the ancient world, “son of God” designated one as divine? And, in a monotheistic religion, if Jesus is divine, Jesus must be God.

If Jesus is divine then he is FROM God as he said..."sent" on a mission and successfully completed it. He did not have to be God in order to pay the ransom required to release captives to the result of Adam's sin. (Romans 5:12) He just had to be sinless.
 
Last edited:
Top