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The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

SLPCCC

Active Member
You are free to make up your own mind about this....but please understand that taking the wrong side of this issue may well cost a person a place in God's kingdom. No one guilty of blasphemy will be there. The First Commandment is "first" because it is the most important....."you must have no other gods but me"....not even if that "god" is Jehovah's firstborn son. He knew his place and never stepped out of it.....it is apostate Christendom who elevated him to this status.....

I understand how this is very important to you. But this sounds like a fallacy many false religions use to get you to join their religion, not that you are using this intentionally. It is called, "The fear fallacy". It uses dread and apprehension to lead the person into action. If a bible student is frightened enough that something horrible will happen if they do not join, it may move them to join. The Fear fallacy, like all fallacies, is nothing but an intentional act of deception. I was studying once with an individual. He said that I will end up in HELL if I didn't join. He didn't mean or even know that he was using the fear fallacy. He was just following what his religious church leaders trained him to do in order to convert people. Do you think it was wise of me to just stick with the scriptures? Or join because if not, I would be going to hell? When studying with people of other religions, it's important to ignore any threats and stay focus on what the bible says.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
How? How is that possible? There’s no such thing as a “perfect” human. Jesus even days so. To be perfect is to be God.
Adam & Eve were created perfect. They were only going to die, IF they disobeyed. Sadly, they did.

(Well, Eve was deceived, but Adam willfully disobeyed.)

That they were created perfect, is seen because they and their immediate descendants lived for so long! Gradually, each successive generation became further and further removed from Adam & Eve’s original perfection, and their lifespans became shorter.

This is one reason for Jesus’ ransom sacrifice....to “buy back” what Adam lost. And Revelation 21:3-4 will be fulfilled.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Adam & Eve were created perfect. They were only going to die, IF they disobeyed. Sadly, they did.

(Well, Eve was deceived, but Adam willfully disobeyed.)

That they were created perfect, is seen because they and their immediate descendants lived for so long! Gradually, each successive generation became further and further removed from Adam & Eve’s original perfection, and their lifespans became shorter.

This is one reason for Jesus’ ransom sacrifice....to “buy back” what Adam lost. And Revelation 21:3-4 will be fulfilled.
Sorry — I don’t buy that theology. Adam and Eve weren’t punished. There were consequences for their actions. They tried to cross the line between humanity and divinity.

Substitutionary atonement is hokum IMO.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No. It's also a difference of ethics, a difference of praxis, a difference of commitment to justice and equity, and a difference in exegesis and interpretation of the texts.
So each one decides what God cares about or will do, is that your thinking? In other words, it's ok for a denomination to teach that one can practice homosexuality, while others might say he's a Christian but then declare in the next breath that the Bible is a myth, is that how you figure it? To sum up, do you think God is pleased with those differing views?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm not being defensive. I'm just seeing that Jesus was given a title here similar to Jehovah when he was called "God". The adjective "Mighty" was attached we can all see. But by saying that the adjective "Almighty" is greater than the adjective "Mighty", when Jehovah is called "Mighty God" you are watering down what God is, A Mighty God, just what the scriptures say. The Jews knew that "Mighty" did not lesson the adjective to mean something lower than "Almighty" because than you were giving God an inferior title. Mighty God and Almighty God referring to Jehovah mean the same thing. Nothing lower.

At John 1:1 in the original Greek, it seems that the writer knew about this scripture of Jesus being called "God" with a capital "G" because it reads in a literal translation "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word." Notice that it says "God was the word." This is the actual word-for-word translation. View attachment 40538

In John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus, "The Lord of me, and the God of me." If Jesus was not God, but "a" god, then shouldn't Jesus have corrected Thomas? Shouldn't Jesus have said, "No, Thomas, I am not the Almighty God. I am a god or the Mighty God"? But Jesus did not.
Did he tell Thomas he was God Almighty equal to his Father? By the way, we must, must, and must follow Jesus. He became a mighty God. That's what it says in the Bible. Thomas realized that Jesus was the one he saw and, upon his resurrection, was the one he finally knew he must follow, even though he earlier didn't believe in his resurrection. Jesus kindly lovingly showed Thomas that he was the One Thomas must follow and rely upon. When Jesus was resurrected, before he ascended, do you remember what he said? (John 20:17)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Sorry — I don’t buy that theology. Adam and Eve weren’t punished. There were consequences for their actions. They tried to cross the line between humanity and divinity.

Substitutionary atonement is hokum IMO.
Consequences you say. They weren't punished, you say? Were they rewarded?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So each one decides what God cares about or will do, is that your thinking? In other words, it's ok for a denomination to teach that one can practice homosexuality, while others might say he's a Christian but then declare in the next breath that the Bible is a myth, is that how you figure it? To sum up, do you think God is pleased with those differing views?
I think Xy has always been multifaceted, and held differing perspectives and points of view. Remember: the Church isn’t here to give us pat answers, it’s here to give us space to wrestle with difficult questions. Even in the Bible there were disputes over women’s roles, circumcision and what food was ok to eat.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
Did he tell Thomas he was God Almighty equal to his Father? By the way, we must, must, and must follow Jesus. He became a mighty God. That's what it says in the Bible.

Exodus 20: 3, 5 says, "Worship no god but me...I am the Lord your God and I tolerate no rivals. The Jews knew that they were not to have any other God but Jehovah. Yet he is called Mighty God and at Heb 1:8 Jehovah calls Jesus God: "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom." Who is saying "Your throne"? Jehovah! Check it out yourself. But how can Jehovah be calling Jesus God and Jesus be calling Jehovah God at John 10:17??? The only way you can understand it is by thinking of the trinity. Otherwise, it's confusing.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I think we're all "perfectly made." But I also know from the bible that "all humans sin." And I don't think "Adam's sin" was "disobedience." Adam's sin was "trying to cross the boundary between humanity and Divinity."
It says he was not deceived.
So are you saying that those who can't help being serial killers were made that way and those parents who rape or molest their children, are they all made that way perfectly? Just wondering what your thoughts are. How about children born with zika virus, you think maybe God made them that way?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It says he was not deceived.
So are you saying that those who can't help being serial killers were made that way and those parents who rape or molest their children, are they all made that way perfectly? Just wondering what your thoughts are. How about children born with zika virus, you think maybe God made them that way?
When I say “perfectly made,” I mean that We are made as we are made. I don’t think anyone is “perfect” with the exception that we are perfectly human.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Exodus 20: 3, 5 says, "Worship no god but me...I am the Lord your God and I tolerate no rivals. The Jews knew that they were not to have any other God but Jehovah. Yet he is called Mighty God and at Heb 1:8 Jehovah calls Jesus God: "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom." Who is saying "Your throne"? Jehovah! Check it out yourself. But how can Jehovah be calling Jesus God and Jesus be calling Jehovah God at John 10:17??? The only way you can understand it is by thinking of the trinity. Otherwise, it's confusing.
We have to look more clearly at that scripture. Since Jesus was placed in the position of king, a king like David but eternally. A king like that MUST have willing SUBJECTS.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
When I say “perfectly made,” I mean that We are made as we are made. I don’t think anyone is “perfect” with the exception that we are perfectly human.
Jesus was perfect in form and mind. Jehovah God, his Father, chose a very, very good set of parents for him. On the earth. He was the perfect, unblemished sacrificial lamb. No one else can take his place. He paid the price. Nobody else could pay the price.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Exodus 20: 3, 5 says, "Worship no god but me...I am the Lord your God and I tolerate no rivals. The Jews knew that they were not to have any other God but Jehovah. Yet he is called Mighty God and at Heb 1:8 Jehovah calls Jesus God: "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom." Who is saying "Your throne"? Jehovah! Check it out yourself. But how can Jehovah be calling Jesus God and Jesus be calling Jehovah God at John 10:17??? The only way you can understand it is by thinking of the trinity. Otherwise, it's confusing.
Jesus was not "only true God." He prayed to HIS God and Father. I've been told that was because Jesus was in his "human form" as God, yet he said he was not equal to the Father. The word 'god' or gods (elohim) is also used in reference to the judges of Israel. You probably know that, right?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Sorry — I don’t buy that theology. Adam and Eve weren’t punished. There were consequences for their actions. They tried to cross the line between humanity and divinity.

Substitutionary atonement is hokum IMO.
If someone commits a crime and gets the death penalty, is that a reward? (Is it a punishment?) Or is it noncommittal?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Of course you understand that Luke’s genealogy is trying to connect Jesus with God? This is a theological tool, not a literal genealogy. You’ve just proved my point!

Why do you keep making these ridiculous statements? What was the purpose of the genealogies?
They had to be literal in order to prove that Jesus was the Messiah. It was part of his 'credentials'. Jewish records prior to the destruction of the Temple, (when they were all destroyed in 70CE) were meticulous. No one after that destruction could ever prove lineage to King David.....to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob....to Judah, and thus claim to be that Messiah.

Every time you make some cockamamie claim about the Bible you demonstrate how little you know or understand about its teachings.
I know who should be embarrassed. Especially concerning the following tirade....:oops:

Well, THAT’S frickin’ obvious! I don’t think you can explain C. A. T. Where the Bible is concerned.


Teachers who don’t know their subjects aren’t teachers. You know who produced Strong’s Concordance you put so much stock in? Scholars. You know who translated the Bible from ancient languages? Scholars. You know for whom these scholars worked? “Christendom.” Yet you thumb your nose at both. In-frickin’-credible!


the ancient Apostles had no need, because they weren’t translating ancient texts in foreign languages, and they weren’t living in a foreign culture. And they had memorized the Hebrew texts, along with every other good Jewish boy of the period. Apostles of more modern ages do attend seminaries and learn how to exegete, because it’s necessary, in order for them to understand ancient and foreign texts.


Because there was no bible as yet.


If one practices one’s mistakes, one will learn only one’s mistakes. Not being a scholar and trying to ‘teach the Bible” is a mistake. To quote a great “bible teacher,” “40 years ‘teaching’ the Bible without scholarship is your hang up, not mine.”


Your posts are all assumption, no substance. you aren’t aware of my denomination, so you assume facts not in evidence. It’s obvious that you got nothin’, because now you’re resorting to cheap-shot ad hominem attacks that are based in complete fantasy. You should be Trump’s press secretary. Good job, “Bible Teacher,” for imparting this “knowledge” that isn’t “hung up” on doing actual, honest research.


Why would you want to teach something that you haven’t studied? You can’t argue effectively against something you know nothing about. (They teach this sort of useful hermeneutic at Scholar Camp — but you’re not interested, apparently in effective argument.)


Bully for you. That’s not cogent to the argument.


So you admit you’ve made a major departure from the monotheism of Judaism and the monotheism of Jesus, and the monotheism of the first Apostles. You admit that you are not minding the Bible’s directive to “continue in the Apostles’ teaching.” you admit that you are not part of the church that stems from the Apostles. Now we’re getting somewhere. Something is rotten in Denmark, and it ain’t Christendom or the RCC.


yeah, that appellation (that’s a “scholar’s word” that means “name” — but you wouldn’t know that, because scholarship’s not your “hang up”) is given to us in Luke’s genealogy, which every scholar knows isn’t a literal genealogy, but a theological (that’s an “industry term” that means “talking about God” — but you probably don’t care, because scholarship’s not your “hang up”) statement, connecting Jesus with ... wait for it ... God! And if you knew anything about ancient Judaic culture (which you don’t, because you dismiss scholarship) you’d know that family and community are the basic units of identity. To connect Jesus to God in a familial sense is to equate Jesus with God — the “God-family” — the Trinity.


See above. You can’t effectively argue against something you don’t understand. What you’re outlining patently Is. Not. The. Doctrine. Of. The. Trinity.


Well, you’ve concocted a situation in which you’re not teaching the Bible, but the man-made doctrines of your polytheistic cult.


The timeless wisdom of not-scholarship: “The Bible needs no interpretation, my Palawan Learner. Scholarship and interpretation: the Dark Side are these...”


You are expecting Jesus’ followers to be perfect when you misinterpret the “narrow gate” passage the way you do. Not-scholarship breeds inconsistent theology, which is what you’re “imparting” here.


“Looking this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.”. “Manslaughter” isn’t mentioned. But from the actual context, “looking this way and that and seeing no one...” indicates premeditation. That’s not “manslaughter,” that’s murder.

So, O Great Teacher of the Bible for 40 Years and Follower of the @Real Jesus™, do you think Jesus approves of premeditated “manslaughter” for beating someone up? Do you think Moses thought he was guilty of a crime by hiding the body and running away? Or is this text “obvious” and “not in need of interpretation?”

Moses committed a crime.


You’re making excuses. David committed sin.


According to Judaic Law, yes. He was also guilty of insurrection, under Roman law. That’s why he was subject to state execution.

Well, you’ve finally admitted it: “I don’t know.” You don’t know. That’s been obvious. The context shows that membership is inclusive. Thieves, prostitutes, money-changers — all sorts of social and ethical riff-raff get in.


Sure! It’s really not difficult to just spout stuff off that has no theological or factual basis and call it “teaching the Bible for 40 years.”


I’m sure you would. Your posts make it clear that you’re into excluding people. You apparently teach that the “Kristian Klub” is exclusively for those who only have to believe certain man-made doctrines about Jesus. It’s an invention of your cult.

In the first century, there certainly were clergy/laity differences. There was a difference between who was an Apostle and who was not. They had specific titles for people who were called to specific ministries: episkopos, diakonos, presbyteros. All you gotta do is read the Bible — no interpretation needed.


Again, if you knew the subject you were arguing against, you wouldn’t look foolish. Clergy aren’t “paid to do God’s work.” That’s not the way it works. At all. Clergy are given a stipend (not a salary for “work done”) so they don’t have to work, so they can be available for ministry all the time. It’s an ecclesiastical (that’s a “scholar-word” that means “churchy” — but you’re possibly unaware, because scholarship isn’t your “thang”) concept, meaning that the assembly calls some to specific ministries, and takes care of their support for not working at a job, because they’re too busy doing ministry for the assembly.


Scholarship, my dear, minimizes silly mistakes. Like not knowing what “pericope” means.


when did I ever mention “transubstantiation?” There you go, making assumptions and implying what’s clearly not there. “Real presence” isn’t “transubstantiation.” I won’t go into the fact that “memorial emblems” isn’t mentioned in the Gospels, but “this is my body...” is. I won’t go into the theological (that’s that “scholar-word” you don’t care about again) reasons why it’s not “cannibalism.” making that argument is nothing more than hyperbole. I would take the time to explain what “real presence” means, and why it’s different from transubstantiation, if I thought for one minute that you’d actually heed the information and not dismiss/ridicule it offhand. A good teacher takes time to learn new information. But that’s not in your wheelhouse, based on what you’ve posted thus far.


Completely dismissing all the passages where God is full of lovingkindness, merciful to all, not punishing as we deserve, loving the whole world, making provisions for welcoming the stranger, caring for the outsider, including the outcast. You probably don’t care why God destroyed Sodom, but it was because they weren’t hospitable. Jesus called God “Daddy.” Somehow, that doesn’t connote waking up with a severed horse’s head next to him in bed, because “Father” was the “angry mob-boss” of the spiritual realms.

The whole “God is angry” motif is theologically untenable.


How little you understand the theology. How apparent it is that your dismissal of biblical scholarship is hobbling your efforts to “teach.” It’s not particularly a “barrier of sin.” It’s primarily a barrier of difference.

Do you feel better now? o_O What a lovely Christian response.....? so full of loving kindness.....Jesus would be proud of you....

Lets see if "the whole angry God motif is theologically untenable"...shall we? Where do you think the world is going right now...?
 
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