Should I Keep Trying to Understand and Save Christianity?

[Brickjectivity]

IMO, it's not your job to save all those people. In the end, everyone is going to have to work it out for themselves.

You don't know what they all need really. All you can do is witness what works for you. If you are successful, if you succeed, folks are naturally going to see you as an example.

Best you can do is succeed for yourself and be an example for others to follow.

No, it isn't my job and maybe not even within my capacity. People are like carvings. We start out with potential to be anything, but then to be something we have to be cut down and lose that potential.

You're probably right.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Brick the American Evangelical voice itself has no walls. Today it's lost in a maze of its own plastic creation and is no longer music its muzak. Religion like anything but especially religion starts off as fire, it becomes lava, it hardens into rock and becomes synthetic plastic. The 2 great American evangelical voices of the 20th century are Martin Luther King and John Muir. I am most focused on Muir. That is an extra ordinary voice of presence.

Religion is at the end of the day not theology that's plastic its Presence. I am huge on root music pre recording before records pre literate folk mountain music. In evangelical tradition how great thou art is a spectacular song. It is well worth reading it's history. The song is INSPIRED by a huge instant thunderstorm as the author was walking home from church. NATURE BREATHED INTO SONG. TO INSPIRE TO BREATHE IN HOLY BREATH. It's in genisis!!!! Ha. The split between the word God And the word NATURE is the intellect killing nature dead. We have dead sun dead dirt dead dead air dead water. PRESENCE rejects that as plastic nonsense. Creationism?is not presence. Intelligent design? Is not presence? Random accidentalism? Is not presence all dead. We have abandoned our roots. Nature alive just like the old Swedish folk song how great thou art or extinction. Muir was a great evangelical voice to what presence is in the landscape. Burn the castle walls down its nonsense. Just like the old neil young song.

A friend of mine used to go out into nature to 'Meet with God'.

 

[Fool]

finally we agree on something! Me and Fool be mates!

your idea of works being an integral aspect of the reality is insightful. it's like the butterfly effect. one can participate in an endeavor by one of two means, or both. by volunteering one's time, or monies. time is money. in the scenario of the good Samaritan both are promoted. the good Samaritan bears the injured party to the inn and then pays for his welfare.

unfortunately money is often tied to religious or political affiliations; which doesn't address the immediate needs of the poor and/or disenfranchised.


Archivist: The report said Commander Chang was killed in the assault.
Sonmi~451: That is correct.
Archivist: Would you say that you loved him?
Sonmi~451: Yes I do.
Archivist: Do you mean you are still in love with him?
Sonmi~451: I mean that I will always be.
Archivist: In your revelation you you spoke of the consequences of a individuals life rippling throughout eternity. Does this mean you believe in a afterlife? Of a heaven or hell?
Sonmi~451: I believe death is only a door, when it closes, another opens. If I care to imagine heaven. I would imagine a door opening. And behind it, I would find him there, waiting for me.
Guard: Thank you sir.
Archivist: If I may ask one last question. You had to know this union scheme was doomed to fail.
Sonmi~451: Yes.
Archivist: Then why did you agree to it?
Sonmi~451: This is what General Apis asked of me.
Archivist: What? To be executed?
Sonmi~451: If I had remained invisible, the truth would have stayed hidden. I couldn't allow that.
Archivist: And what if no one believes this truth?
Sonmi~451: Someone already does.


cloud atlas - david mitchell

 

[David T]

A friend of mine used to go out into nature to 'Meet with God'.

The Evangelical voice IS THAT! Unfortunately it's been taken over by its version of King Henry the VIII. Where Henry makes himself head of the church turns and kills Anne boleyn for adultery. In spite of the text "he who has not sinned may cast the first stone". I would like to know how today evangelicalism isn't only and just exactly that...... Plastic and a fraud to its own voice. It's BS lost in media politics television, Internet, money, culture. It's so lame which either is oh no, or it's getting close to completely changing. I just blow the building up I don't care presence how great thou art. Nature god undivided original as its always been. Before all the apple chomping that is!!!
Dont quit, sing How great thou art in what ever form works for you. Is does not matter it's presence and that is truth.

 

[Jainarayan]

IMO, it's not your job to save all those people.

Agreed. However, all those people think it's their job to save you. And there's the rub (which rubs people the wrong way).

 

[Fool]

IMO, it's not your job to save all those people. In the end, everyone is going to have to work it out for themselves.

You don't know what they all need really. All you can do is witness what works for you. If you are successful, if you succeed, folks are naturally going to see you as an example.

Best you can do is succeed for yourself and be an example for others to follow.

i believe you can help someone in their journey, struggle but you can't save them from themselves. they must needs to cross the dark night alone to find their love.

 

[74x12]

To be a Christian is a grim, cheerful, selfless and dedicated life. It is not something that rewards you with an afterlife. It is resurrection, and it is a high honor.

No offense, but I completely disagree with you. Hope in the resurrection is how a Christian endures.

I'm curious what you think of the wisdom of Ecclesiastes?

 

[sun rise]

IMO, it's not your job to save all those people. In the end, everyone is going to have to work it out for themselves.

You don't know what they all need really. All you can do is witness what works for you. If you are successful, if you succeed, folks are naturally going to see you as an example.

Best you can do is succeed for yourself and be an example for others to follow.

That is a wonderful approach. As Ramakrishna put it poetically: “When the lotus opens, the bees come of their own accord to seek honey; so let the lotus of your character be full-blown and the results will follow."

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I'm sorry if this sounds really sappy, but I truly believe that you cannot change others, you can only change yourself. If you have faith in the faith but not in the people, the best thing you can do is live your faith to the fullest good that you can. Getting out there, helping people in need, committing your time to the betterment of your society is what's going to stick in people's minds including yours. My life got so much better when I found some causes to donate to, and not money but time. And I hope, small as it may be, it's making some other people's lives better too.

 

[Vee]

How would I ever get other people to commit to it?

First I think you need to keep in mind that just because someone says they're christian, it doesn't mean they follow Christ. Observing their behavior is the only way to know for sure if they are serious Christians.

I don't think you can get people to commit to anything at all. You might be able to help them, motivate, teach them, but ultimate each person has to make a personal choice.

 

[suncowiam]

If you wanted to force your convictions on others then religion seems to be the right approach.

Just saying! I respect you and the civility you bring to the forums but I still speak off the top of my tongue.

I would prefer that religions adhere to a set of processes. The one religion that does this best is Catholicism. I can see over time that this religion evolves and I can pinpoint as to how it evolved. It's not perfect, but it has processes to realign itself to the people and especially, to the times. It's a system with some checks and balances.

Other religions tend to be a crap shoot with fanatics branching off boosted by popularity and emotions.

 

[sun rise]

I'm sorry if this sounds really sappy, but I truly believe that you cannot change others, you can only change yourself. If you have faith in the faith but not in the people, the best thing you can do is live your faith to the fullest good that you can. Getting out there, helping people in need, committing your time to the betterment of your society is what's going to stick in people's minds including yours. My life got so much better when I found some causes to donate to, and not money but time. And I hope, small as it may be, it's making some other people's lives better too.

That is utterly not "sappy" to me but true. And to me it matters zero what someone believes; it matters what they do. That is why I honor "irreligious agnostic atheist apatheist" folk who try to do the right thing and do not honor those who just talk and talk and talk.

 

[Jesster]

Just believe what you think is right. After that, it's up to you to figure out how to label that belief. Don't let anyone else force you to do otherwise, but still keep an open mind.

 

[Nakosis]

i believe you can help someone in their journey, struggle but you can't save them from themselves. they must needs to cross the dark night alone to find their love.

I struggle with my choices and often make the wrong one. I don't see myself in the best position for giving advice.

Then when I do give advice, folks usually ignore it and do what they want to anyway. I suspect the only reason they asked for advice was to find someone to confirm the choices they had already decided on.

Small children, maybe. Then they become teens and rebellious.

So when people ask, I just tell them what works for me with no guarantees it'd work for them.

 

[George-ananda]

I'm someone who believes in a very Biblical approach to Christianity, something that does not involve a personal afterlife. I think Christianity is supposed to be a community that grimly accepts personal death in order to contribute to life for all.

Why do you take such a grim view? That would not be what I get out of reading the Bible. Subjectively, I would prefer mainstream Christianity to your view.

Objectively, I personally believe in the personal afterlife from the paranormal evidence and not ancient scriptures.

But in the big picture, I believe Christianity is still a big inherent vehicle for spirituality in my society (America), and I still am pro-Christian (although not a Christian per se). When talking with Christians I try to persuade a more modern universal and less dogmatic understanding of spirituality.

 

[sealchan]

If you have been following the forums long, you may have noticed that I'm whiny about Christianity but am still a Christian. There are a lot of practices that I don't like in Christianity today. I'm concerned about these practices damaging my relatives and which anger me. Specifically: the modern concept they call 'Worship', the Church Industry of Franchised Churches, the fake Bible seminaries that church out 'Ministers', and above all the practice of teaching children that death is not real. People often go to church, sit, listen, donate, leave and forget. I hate these things. One person in a thousand spends time working with the homeless or visits rest homes or prisons or orphanages.

At the same time, all of the people involved from the ministers to the church members to the organist who's just payed to be there -- they all have brains and all contribute good things to the world. They matter, and I have seen the damage that this kind of life can do to them. At the same time their views of church are integrated with their lives, and you can't just go changing people's lives. They really believe that their loved ones that have died are safe somewhere up in another dimension or in another place or that they will be brought back from death. This is a huge comfort for many. Taking it away is like taking candy away.

Also if everybody listened to one person (me) that would not be healthy for any concerned I think. Every time a persuasive religious leader pops up I think it does not really change much. It tends to justify their tendency to search for people to tell them things that they want to hear.

There is also a contradiction in my effort. I'm someone who believes in a very Biblical approach to Christianity, something that does not involve a personal afterlife. I think Christianity is supposed to be a community that grimly accepts personal death in order to contribute to life for all. It is a life of labor and selflessness, but you know what I am not actually living that way. I'm just observing what I think the Bible says about it. In that case I really do not have a personal stake in it. There's not much that I contribute at the moment. How would I ever get other people to commit to it?

Though so many Christians would say this is wrong I would never let go of my personal understanding of anything. To do so is a crime of integrity.

Similarly people who say Christianity is united in belief are only partially correct...so much dissension and crime has been committed in the name of "I'm right, you're wrong" that it has forever, it seems, tarnished the credibility of Christianity until and unless the various churches take responsibility for their crimes.

People are leaving the churches these days because the churches still talk in childish ways about the inerrant Bible that they, of course, understand correctly. Hypocrisy, ignorance and credulity abound.

But I too call myself a Christian. I have a story I can tell as to why. It involves God becoming a part of my life and guiding me in directions that I both find myself moving voluntarily and not so voluntarily. I can take responsibility for myself and hold myself reasonably accountable for the crimes committed by the institutions of the faith of which I hold myself a member.

Do I look like a Christian? Maybe I wouldn't by your standards. But I think that the most important standard is your own. If you study God's word, cultivate a relationship with Him, commit yourself to whatever incremental changes in your behavior that you can to make yourself more in line with what you understand God wants you to be and you see why Christ said what he said...that is enough.

If you are honest with yourself and you share your thoughts (as you are doing) you may influence others more than you know but not more than you need to be concerned about.

 

[RedDragon94]

There's not much that I contribute at the moment. How would I ever get other people to commit to it?

The thing about it is you never know what someone is really thinking on this website. People could just be jerks and you never know what they are truly like in reality.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Christianity is the Way, the Truth and Life.

Jesus said He was the Way, the Truth and the Life, Christianity isn't.

If Christianity is the way, the truth and the life, which sect is the one to follow?

 

[Brickjectivity]

The thing about it is you never know what someone is really thinking on this website. People could just be jerks and you never know what they are truly like in reality.

Thanks! I am not talking about changing minds on this website. People do sometimes change our own minds. Sometimes we see something that resonates internally or we just are in that moment ready for a particular piece of information. It can appear as if we have changed a person's mind, but its more like an accident when that happens. We get to witness it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Though so many Christians would say this is wrong I would never let go of my personal understanding of anything. To do so is a crime of integrity.

I appreciate that.

Similarly people who say Christianity is united in belief are only partially correct...so much dissension and crime has been committed in the name of "I'm right, you're wrong" that it has forever, it seems, tarnished the credibility of Christianity until and unless the various churches take responsibility for their crimes.

It seems like it.

People are leaving the churches these days because the churches still talk in childish ways about the inerrant Bible that they, of course, understand correctly. Hypocrisy, ignorance and credulity abound.

Are they leaving? I am unaware of the statistics. It would be great if churches became centers of learning, action and community interaction. Its sad that folks have to leave.

But I too call myself a Christian. I have a story I can tell as to why. It involves God becoming a part of my life and guiding me in directions that I both find myself moving voluntarily and not so voluntarily. I can take responsibility for myself and hold myself reasonably accountable for the crimes committed by the institutions of the faith of which I hold myself a member.

Do I look like a Christian? Maybe I wouldn't by your standards. But I think that the most important standard is your own. If you study God's word, cultivate a relationship with Him, commit yourself to whatever incremental changes in your behavior that you can to make yourself more in line with what you understand God wants you to be and you see why Christ said what he said...that is enough.

Thanks for that. While I don't have a picture of you I imagine you probably don't look like a Christian. Perhaps you look more like duck feathered bank robber.

If you are honest with yourself and you share your thoughts (as you are doing) you may influence others more than you know but not more than you need to be concerned about.

True! Good point, and if I am lucky they will influence me.