Shopping for a religion

[Valjean]

Humanism - Wikipedia

 

[Mock Turtle]

@Mock Turtle

So, if I understand you correctly, you want a religion that would basically be secular humanism with a dash of democratism, rationalism and feminism and which is non dogmatic? What you want seems to be just that and not a religion.

Well the nearest might do.

 

[metis]

And which tends to advocate the following (Not for me of course - for a friend):

Treats all humans as equals (as to rights and such), does not discriminate (male/female, for example), and hopes that all fulfil their lives as they would wish (with provisos).

Doesn't tend to place humans as being at the pinnacle of creation, such that other life gets as much respect as we would hope for.

Said religion has no entry or exit requirements.

Has no particular rituals or requirements as to lifestyles - dietary or bodily modifications, for example.

Is open to revision, so not dependent upon any set principles that might oppose reality.

Has no requirement to indoctrinate children into such.

Has no authority other than reason and/or consensus.

Any offers?

Buddhism.

 

[Mock Turtle]

No need to wait. It is already here.
You are clearly talking of my religion, Advaita Hinduism. Does not miss even one point, most of the time goes beyond the points mentioned by you.
1. Treats all things as equal, humans, animals, vegetation, non-living objects.
3. Go with it till the time it suits you, no need to inform if you ditch it.
4. Absolutely none other than 'take care of your responsibilities' and 'help others if you can, do not treat others badly'. That is 'dharma'.
5. Checked every evening with the latest in science.
6. Children will not understand it. It is for big boys.
7. No authority, no God, no prophet / son / messenger / manifestation / mahdi / priests. No book that you must follow. Never threatens you with eternal hell, also does not try to entice you with heavenly mansions and houris.What is animate and what is inanimate? The electrons even in a stone are whirring, just like in my body. And same - Hydrogen, Oxygen, Calcium, Carbon, etc.

Sounds good. Best offer yet I think.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Since you're shopping, how much have you got to spend. I could set something up for you and I'm sure others also would want to join. I'll even by the minister for a price or you could be your own minister and save a packet, and in that case I would just take the setting up and registration fee.
Anyway you can let your friend know and see what he/she says.

I think they might be expecting something for nothing. Like how we are born into life with no costs attached - for ourselves, that is.

 

[Link]

And which tends to advocate the following (Not for me of course - for a friend):

Treats all humans as equals (as to rights and such), does not discriminate (male/female, for example), and hopes that all fulfil their lives as they would wish (with provisos).

Doesn't tend to place humans as being at the pinnacle of creation, such that other life gets as much respect as we would hope for.

Said religion has no entry or exit requirements.

Has no particular rituals or requirements as to lifestyles - dietary or bodily modifications, for example.

Is open to revision, so not dependent upon any set principles that might oppose reality.

Has no requirement to indoctrinate children into such.

Has no authority other than reason and/or consensus.

Any offers?

Rituals can be powerful tools to give the soul power and draw it closer to God. As for what morals we are to follow, who best to remind us and enlighten us but God?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Rituals can be powerful tools to give the soul power and draw it closer to God. As for what morals we are to follow, who best to remind us and enlighten us but God?

I think perhaps the last point might go against this - especially when one might be reliant on other humans for such.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Buddhism.

This too is the nearest I think to the requirements.

 

[Vinayaka]

I do think the OP is rather inviting responses that might be labelled as proselytising. I was rather reticent about posting my little spiel, aside from the RF rule, for just that reason. I guess it's down to @Mock Turtle what he makes of the responses.

I was only going by what's happened in the past. It's no big deal, other that that some folks, including myself, find humour in the predictable. There is less of it these days.

 

[Link]

I think perhaps the last point might go against this - especially when one might be reliant on other humans for such.

If we rely on proofs from God that those humans are guides appointed by God, then relying on them is relying on God in theory.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Pastafarianism. It has the advantage of being the only religion with a "God back guarantee".

 

[Mock Turtle]

If we rely on proofs from God that those humans are guides appointed by God, then relying on them is relying on God in theory.

Too many to choose from though, and unless one studied them all one might not be any better off.

 

[Link]

Too many to choose from though, and unless one studied them all one might not be any better off.

You can narrow them down, if you seek proofs though and then eventually the one from God would be the one proven in all aspects.

 

[PureX]

What is animate and what is inanimate? The electrons even in a stone are whirring, just like in my body. And same - Hydrogen, Oxygen, Calcium, Carbon, etc.

A religion of total non-concern: the religion of the realm of the inanimate, non-cognizant object. Not really an option for humans.

 

[osgart]

So many religions don't know when to say that they don't know all the answers to every big question of existence. And they also refuse to adapt and change with new factual information.

So you will need a religion that writes everything in pencil with a big eraser.

But there's plenty of room for religions that have scientifically untestable claims that would best translate as philosophical proofs more than a well defined religion.

As for my independent religion I affirm the eternal sanctity of all life. And I consider morality to be universally and objectively true. I have self evident truthes, and big mysteries to my existence. If one cannot affirm for themselves the self evident truthes then they shouldn't practice my religion. Self evident truthes are moral truthes. All existential truthes I have are written in pencil with a big eraser. But I have faith by way of my own reasoning in my existential truthes. It's a personal religion.

Maybe you should develope your own personal religion. And after death we will see who is more accurate and right.

 

[Clara Tea]

1. all humans as equals
2. humans not at pinnacle of creation
3. no entry or exit requirements.
4. has no particular rituals or requirements as to lifestyles - dietary or bodily modifications
5. open to revision (not oppose reality)
6. no requirement to indoctrinate children
7. has no authority other than reason and/or consensus

RESPONSES (NON IN ORDER):

I propose that you do not eliminate parts of religions without discussing the reasons for those parts.

4. BODY MODIFICATION: The Jewish bris keeps both males and females (who don't get circumcised) safe from bacteria and viruses that lurk in foreskin. So, today, even non-Jews are supposed to have a bris as infants.

4. DIET (SAFETY): Before refrigeration, Jews had dietary restrictions to keep them safe. Jews were often blamed for being wicked witches who intentionally cast evil spells on non-Jews. Proof? Jews survived while others didn't (because of diet). The story of Passover was that the Egyptians had better release their slaves or the Jewish God would kill their first born sons, and Jews would put a mark on their doors to have their avenger "pass over" their house to save their sons. Could it be that first born sons were given some special treat?--Perhaps some delectable shell fish (which during red tide would be poisonous and perhaps deadly)? This could easily explain why Jews survived while others did not.

Jews don't eat pigs. Ham was from filthy pigs that ate anything, and the physiology of a pig is so similar to humans that whatever plague or ailment a pig gets, a human will likely get it too. Hence, swine flu (and, for that matter, most other flu that start with birds, contaminate swine, then spread to humans. Increasingly, modern Jews eat virtually anything because of modern safety measures.

Orthodox Jews don't eat shellfish. Shellfish are often the cause of parasites or biological poisons (especially during red tide). Red tide is caused by a bloom of red algae. Plants produce oxygen using sunlight, but, at night, they use oxygen, and that deprives fish of oxygen which kills fish. This makes toxins in the water.

Kosher (Jewish) food must be blessed by a rabbi (food inspector, who makes sure that preparation is sanitary). Rabbis were not just priests who taught religion to the masses, they were also the Jewish equivalent of the FDA (Food and Drug Administration) and USDA (United States Department of Agriculture) which inspects meats. Rabbis make sure that the food preparation area is clean and that food workers go through special rituals of cleaning. The washing of hands is done in modern times to get rid of germs. But, in biblical times, long ago, there might have been rumors that there were little tiny animals that caused illnesses (some thought that this was utter nonsense).

4. DIET (HUMANE): Jews must not drink the milk of the animal that they eat (at the same meal). This is because it seems cruel to do so. Jews also have a ritual of killing a chicken by ringing its neck. This is because ringing a neck is the most human way of doing it (it is quick). This ritual reminds Jews that they must be kind in all of the things that they do. Some non-Jews balk at Jews ritually killing chickens, because, frankly, they don't understand. Additionally, the rapid Jewish methods of killing meat (for example, cattle, by slitting their throats) is meant to limit suffering. But it also decreases the amount of blood and amount of adrenaline (released by a suffering or angry animal) in the meat. This affects the taste, but also, the blood is the thing that rots first in the meat. So, even if the meat is refrigerated, kosher (Jewish) or Halal (Arab) meat will last longer.

2. PINNACLE: Many Christians wonder why God created mosquitos. I retorted that people are made of meat and God created humans as food for mosquitos. I'm joking, of course. Nature is filled with predators and prey, and balanced so that one is not stronger than the other. If one was stronger, all of its food would soon be gone. As Bodhidharma taught, the white crane fends off tigers with its long legs, ability to fight, etc. Bodhidharma was the Buddhist monk who brought Buddhism into China around the 5th or 6th century, AD. Bodhidharma is credited for teaching Kung Fu to Shaolin, and the various styles, based on animals. Many religions (including some Native Americans) recognize the need for balance in nature. For example, the Navajo believe that if there are too many coyotes, they will eat all the rabbits then starve, and if there are too many rabbits, they will eat all of the plants and they will starve.

1. ALL HUMANS EQUAL: America, now, is based on that concept, and it has greatly improved society. Yet, at its inception, women were not allowed to vote and were basically the property of their husbands or fathers. Also, Blacks were given only a partial vote and that was only for freed Blacks. Often freed Blacks would be captured back into slavery again with no legal recourse. Even with many court decisions (Brown Vs. Board of Education of Topeka Kansas, 1954--separate necessarily means unequal, such as bad schools), (Plessey Vs. Fergusson, 1896--separate but equal), modern Blacks are still discriminated against. Blacks are still beaten in the streets by police officers (the root cause of BLM (Black Lives Matter)), and the root cause of counter hate crimes against Whites. All are God's children. Yet, many religions treat women like property. Even Christianity doesn't respect women's rights. A woman must cleve unto her husband, and husbands want their clevage next to them.

3. ENTRY/EXIT: Cults require deprogramming. Some atheists see little difference between devout God fearing churchgoers and programmed cult followers. Many cults (Heaven's Gate, Jonestown, etc.) have suicide pacts to get to heaven sooner. Scientologists have often given all of their money on the promise that they will get everything their hearts desire, and women are prostituted to seduce new male members. Scientology is based on blatantly false ideas, such as the injuries of its founder, L Ron Hubbard. Many US women have married Muslims, moved to the Middle East, only to find that they are no longer free to leave, and must be literal slaves (beaten and raped) by their formerly loved husbands. 6. INDOCTRINATE KIDS: This is very similar to not allowing entry or exit, but it preys on the immature minds who don't yet have life's lessons to strengthen their decisions. While kids can be wonderful and be guided to a good life, they can also be hooked on the wrong path. Who determines the right path? Parents? Kids? God? The government?

5. REVISION: One must adhere to one's bible, because that is the word of God. At what point do we ignore God? President W. Bush, elected by the Religious Right, made wars (thou shalt not kill) and a torture camp, all in defiance of God. Remember, Revelation says that no one shall attack Iraq or face God's wrath. By lying to the American people about Iraq's link to terrorism and mythical Weapons of Mass Destruction, W. Bush was able to defy God and start the world on the path of Armageddon (total world destruction at the hands of God). Should we revise the words of God and do what we want? I thought that God was the one who knew the future, and was the all-wise one who could guide us by faith to do what doesn't seem logical at the time?

7. REASON/CONSENSUS: God said "thou shalt not kill" but the al Qaeda made the 911 attack, so we are sitting ducks if we don't take the war to them on their own land, and occupy their land (altering their elections to make them pro-American) for decades to follow, while irate Middle Easterners join the al Qaeda to get out the occupying invaders. So, God (in Revelation) said not to attack Iraq and logic says that we must. So, if we follow logic, we sometimes must defy God. Why, then, have a religion, if we will defy God any time we choose. Remember, God knows the future and God is all-knowing and all-powerful.

 

[Mock Turtle]

So many religions don't know when to say that they don't know all the answers to every big question of existence. And they also refuse to adapt and change with new factual information.

So you will need a religion that writes everything in pencil with a big eraser.

But there's plenty of room for religions that have scientifically untestable claims that would best translate as philosophical proofs more than a well defined religion.

As for my independent religion I affirm the eternal sanctity of all life. And I consider morality to be universally and objectively true. I have self evident truthes, and big mysteries to my existence. If one cannot affirm for themselves the self evident truthes then they shouldn't practice my religion. Self evident truthes are moral truthes. All existential truthes I have are written in pencil with a big eraser. But I have faith by way of my own reasoning in my existential truthes. It's a personal religion.

Maybe you should develope your own personal religion. And after death we will see who is more accurate and right.

Well I was with you until the objective morality bit. Apart from not believing in it for humans, and giving them more freedom over such, I would question how this notion fits in with other life, and especially for our ancestors, unless perhaps one was to believe that we tend towards objective morality as we evolve - whatever that might be.

 

[osgart]

Well I was with you until the objective morality bit. Apart from not believing in it for humans, and giving them more freedom over such, I would question how this notion fits in with other life, and especially for our ancestors, unless perhaps one was to believe that we tend towards objective morality as we evolve - whatever that might be.

I don't think objective moral truthes are discovered without redefining a long list of terms. For instance honesty is withholding undeserved information, as much as telling deserved information to those most responsible to such information. Honesty is a moral quality. It's objectively true that this honesty is needed to produce quality of life.

I would tend to see people evolving toward universal morality. And others who have destructive moral codes might find themselves in a horrible environment of survival, if they don't find themselves dying out altogether.

 

[Mock Turtle]

RESPONSES (NON IN ORDER):

I propose that you do not eliminate parts of religions without discussing the reasons for those parts.

4. BODY MODIFICATION: The Jewish bris keeps both males and females (who don't get circumcised) safe from bacteria and viruses that lurk in foreskin. So, today, even non-Jews are supposed to have a bris as infants.

I think that is debatable - from a European perspective at least (not that popular here) - and mainly boils down to proper cleanliness, which I haven't found too difficult with my intact foreskin. I think it is mainly American science that tends to regard the benefits as being such when others don't find so much evidence for this.

4. DIET (SAFETY): Before refrigeration, Jews had dietary restrictions to keep them safe. Jews were often blamed for being wicked witches who intentionally cast evil spells on non-Jews. Proof? Jews survived while others didn't (because of diet). The story of Passover was that the Egyptians had better release their slaves or the Jewish God would kill their first born sons, and Jews would put a mark on their doors to have their avenger "pass over" their house to save their sons. Could it be that first born sons were given some special treat?--Perhaps some delectable shell fish (which during red tide would be poisonous and perhaps deadly)? This could easily explain why Jews survived while others did not.

Jews don't eat pigs. Ham was from filthy pigs that ate anything, and the physiology of a pig is so similar to humans that whatever plague or ailment a pig gets, a human will likely get it too. Hence, swine flu (and, for that matter, most other flu that start with birds, contaminate swine, then spread to humans. Increasingly, modern Jews eat virtually anything because of modern safety measures.

Orthodox Jews don't eat shellfish. Shellfish are often the cause of parasites or biological poisons (especially during red tide). Red tide is caused by a bloom of red algae. Plants produce oxygen using sunlight, but, at night, they use oxygen, and that deprives fish of oxygen which kills fish. This makes toxins in the water.

Kosher (Jewish) food must be blessed by a rabbi (food inspector, who makes sure that preparation is sanitary). Rabbis were not just priests who taught religion to the masses, they were also the Jewish equivalent of the FDA (Food and Drug Administration) and USDA (United States Department of Agriculture) which inspects meats. Rabbis make sure that the food preparation area is clean and that food workers go through special rituals of cleaning. The washing of hands is done in modern times to get rid of germs. But, in biblical times, long ago, there might have been rumors that there were little tiny animals that caused illnesses (some thought that this was utter nonsense).

4. DIET (HUMANE): Jews must not drink the milk of the animal that they eat (at the same meal). This is because it seems cruel to do so. Jews also have a ritual of killing a chicken by ringing its neck. This is because ringing a neck is the most human way of doing it (it is quick). This ritual reminds Jews that they must be kind in all of the things that they do. Some non-Jews balk at Jews ritually killing chickens, because, frankly, they don't understand. Additionally, the rapid Jewish methods of killing meat (for example, cattle, by slitting their throats) is meant to limit suffering. But it also decreases the amount of blood and amount of adrenaline (released by a suffering or angry animal) in the meat. This affects the taste, but also, the blood is the thing that rots first in the meat. So, even if the meat is refrigerated, kosher (Jewish) or Halal (Arab) meat will last longer.

I'm sure there was much sense in some of these practices and how to avoid the issues as stated. I suppose apart from such we are obliged to our local authorities to make sure we are not poisoned by the food we consume. Being a vegan - which is quite possible in the future for many, and where the food might be created synthetically - might also get rid of many of these issues.

2. PINNACLE: Many Christians wonder why God created mosquitos. I retorted that people are made of meat and God created humans as food for mosquitos. I'm joking, of course. Nature is filled with predators and prey, and balanced so that one is not stronger than the other. If one was stronger, all of its food would soon be gone. As Bodhidharma taught, the white crane fends off tigers with its long legs, ability to fight, etc. Bodhidharma was the Buddhist monk who brought Buddhism into China around the 5th or 6th century, AD. Bodhidharma is credited for teaching Kung Fu to Shaolin, and the various styles, based on animals. Many religions (including some Native Americans) recognize the need for balance in nature. For example, the Navajo believe that if there are too many coyotes, they will eat all the rabbits then starve, and if there are too many rabbits, they will eat all of the plants and they will starve.

Humans being able to lord it over all other life, as we see fit (and we do at the moment in so many ways), perhaps is the issue here. That is, that life was created for us and that other life is merely the backdrop for our existence. I think many don't see it this way.

1. ALL HUMANS EQUAL: America, now, is based on that concept, and it has greatly improved society. Yet, at its inception, women were not allowed to vote and were basically the property of their husbands or fathers. Also, Blacks were given only a partial vote and that was only for freed Blacks. Often freed Blacks would be captured back into slavery again with no legal recourse. Even with many court decisions (Brown Vs. Board of Education of Topeka Kansas, 1954--separate necessarily means unequal, such as bad schools), (Plessey Vs. Fergusson, 1896--separate but equal), modern Blacks are still discriminated against. Blacks are still beaten in the streets by police officers (the root cause of BLM (Black Lives Matter)), and the root cause of counter hate crimes against Whites. All are God's children. Yet, many religions treat women like property. Even Christianity doesn't respect women's rights. A woman must cleve unto her husband, and husbands want their clevage next to them.

I think the wealth inequalities, which occurs in so many other similar societies too, is one factor that could improve, but the Western models of democracy is probably better than so many others in this respect - from what I can gather.

3. ENTRY/EXIT: Cults require deprogramming. Some atheists see little difference between devout God fearing churchgoers and programmed cult followers. Many cults (Heaven's Gate, Jonestown, etc.) have suicide pacts to get to heaven sooner. Scientologists have often given all of their money on the promise that they will get everything their hearts desire, and women are prostituted to seduce new male members. Scientology is based on blatantly false ideas, such as the injuries of its founder, L Ron Hubbard. Many US women have married Muslims, moved to the Middle East, only to find that they are no longer free to leave, and must be literal slaves (beaten and raped) by their formerly loved husbands. 6. INDOCTRINATE KIDS: This is very similar to not allowing entry or exit, but it preys on the immature minds who don't yet have life's lessons to strengthen their decisions. While kids can be wonderful and be guided to a good life, they can also be hooked on the wrong path. Who determines the right path? Parents? Kids? God? The government?

I suppose no penalties or costs to joining/leaving a belief system would be attractive to some - apostasy and excommunication not being that attractive features of some religions. As for kids, well not indoctrinating them is a good start, allowing them to see what the major faiths entail another, and giving them the freedom to choose their path when they are able to, the last.

5. REVISION: One must adhere to one's bible, because that is the word of God. At what point do we ignore God? President W. Bush, elected by the Religious Right, made wars (thou shalt not kill) and a torture camp, all in defiance of God. Remember, Revelation says that no one shall attack Iraq or face God's wrath. By lying to the American people about Iraq's link to terrorism and mythical Weapons of Mass Destruction, W. Bush was able to defy God and start the world on the path of Armageddon (total world destruction at the hands of God). Should we revise the words of God and do what we want? I thought that God was the one who knew the future, and was the all-wise one who could guide us by faith to do what doesn't seem logical at the time?

Well there was no mention of God, so allowing a person to believe whatever they wished concerning such would be one option - so ignoring all previous textual material or not taking all such so seriously.

7. REASON/CONSENSUS: God said "thou shalt not kill" but the al Qaeda made the 911 attack, so we are sitting ducks if we don't take the war to them on their own land, and occupy their land (altering their elections to make them pro-American) for decades to follow, while irate Middle Easterners join the al Qaeda to get out the occupying invaders. So, God (in Revelation) said not to attack Iraq and logic says that we must. So, if we follow logic, we sometimes must defy God. Why, then, have a religion, if we will defy God any time we choose. Remember, God knows the future and God is all-knowing and all-powerful.

I think you are making the case for no religion (or ignoring much of what they might say), and culture/history issues perhaps has and still is causing so many problems for us.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I don't think objective moral truthes are discovered without redefining a long list of terms. For instance honesty is withholding undeserved information, as much as telling deserved information to those most responsible to such information. Honesty is a moral quality. It's objectively true that this honesty is needed to produce quality of life.

But you must know that people are not honest a lot of the time - research tends to show such - and for a variety of reasons, most of which don't involve intentional harm. Ask any mother what they tell their children.

I would tend to see people evolving toward universal morality. And others who have destructive moral codes might find themselves in a horrible environment of survival, if they don't find themselves dying out altogether.

Still a long way to go as far as I can see, and we can't see that far into the future so as to know what will happen to the human race.