1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Quick question about eve and the devil and the garden of eden

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Frank Goad, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,337
    Ratings:
    +4,795
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Is there a single soul in the Bible who was sinless and didn't die? (Romans 3:23)

    Jesus was the only other sinless human (apart from Adam) and he died. Jesus was in his tomb for three days and then God raised him from the dead, but not in a physical body. (1 Peter 3:18) His spiritual body was raised immortal.

    If Jesus was God, then who resurrected him?
    If Jesus was God, then he could not die, since immortals cannot die.
    If Jesus was God and he didn't really die, then the ransom wasn't paid, our sins are not forgiven, and we are all still 'dead in our trespasses'.

    I am sure that you'll agree that we need to get things right. Different views just won't do...the truth is the truth, not because we want to believe it, but because its the truth. We either have an immortal soul that survives death to go to some invisible realm....or we don't. Death comes to all of us so we'd better know the truth about what happens when we die. The ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife....Jesus was a Jew and would not have taught such a thing. He both taught and demonstrated resurrection. (John 11:11-14)

    The Bible says we "sleep" in an unconscious state (Ecclesiastes 9:10).....but you disagree and want to adopt the lie that satan told to the woman in Eden? Can I ask why?[/quote]
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,337
    Ratings:
    +4,795
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Who said? Moses was not even around when the Babylonian exile took place. He died before they entered the Promised Land.
     
  3. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    8,137
    Ratings:
    +2,296
    Religion:
    Theistic Rationalist-Christian
    Enoch was transmogrified by the Lord.

    Genesis 5:24

    24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

    And I think Daniel or Elijah? As well I'm not sure I'll have to research.

    Adam sinned, he sinned when he ate of the fruit with Eve in Eden. It's the whole reason they got tossed out of Eden.
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,337
    Ratings:
    +4,795
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Enoch was an outstanding example of faith in ancient times.....“Enoch kept walking with the true God.” (Ge 5:18, 21-24; Heb 11:5; 12:1) As a prophet of Jehovah, he foretold God’s coming with His holy myriads to execute judgment against the ungodly. (Jude 14, 15) Likely persecution was brought against him because of his prophesying. However, God did not permit the opposers to kill Enoch. Instead, Jehovah “took him,” that is, cut short his life at the age of 365, an age far below that of most of his contemporaries. Enoch was “transferred so as not to see death,” which may mean that God put him in a prophetic trance and then terminated Enoch’s life while he was in the trance so that he did not experience the pangs of death. (Ge 5:24; Heb 11:5, 13) However, he was not taken to heaven, in view of Jesus’ clear statement at John 3:13. It appears that, as in the case of Moses’ body, Jehovah disposed of Enoch’s body, for “he was nowhere to be found.”—De 34:5, 6; Jude 9."

    Enoch — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    Daniel had visions and dreams. He was told to seal up his writings because no one would understand them until "the time of the end". (Daniel 12:4; 10-12)

    Elijah was taken up in a windstorm but he did not die. He was simply transported to another location in spectacular fashion. He wrote a letter from his new location.

    Adam chose to sin. He was not created sinful. He was created sinless and so was his wife. He had no excuse for his disobedience because it was a considered choice to disobey the only command with the death penalty attached to it. The woman was deceived by the serpent, but Adam wasn't. That is why sin came through the man, not the woman. (Romans 5:12)
     
  5. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    3,444
    Ratings:
    +2,420
    Religion:
    RC (culturally at least)
    Nowhere. Obviously.
     
  6. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    8,633
    Ratings:
    +2,609
    Religion:
    Christian
    That's right. Moses didn't write the Pentateuch .. It was written 800 years after Moses.
     
  7. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    8,137
    Ratings:
    +2,296
    Religion:
    Theistic Rationalist-Christian
    Yeup

    I thought it was Elijah! Gotta trust my gut more!
     
  8. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,664
    Ratings:
    +4,650
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Compiled, redacted and edited by committee.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    8,633
    Ratings:
    +2,609
    Religion:
    Christian
    Cleverly, thoughtfully and very deliberately.. Their motives must have been political.
     
  10. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2018
    Messages:
    500
    Ratings:
    +190
    Religion:
    Catholic
    The Tree of knowledge of good and evil is symbolic of law. Law teaches us the differences between good and evil behavior, using positive and negative reinforcement.

    Law is connected to the conscious mind; willpower and choice. Law gives us a choice for behavior, based on the cost benefit analysis, defined by a legal outcome. Prohibition inducing temptation is indicative of law also directing our choices via temptation. On the other hand, instinct is natural and is connected to the DNA and the unconscious mind. Law is the tree of knowledge, while natural instinct is the tree of life. Law is not innate, like instinct. Law is connected to the conscious mind and conscious choices.

    The best way to understand how and why death appears, by accepting law; eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, can be understood by considering domesticated animals.

    Natural animals have one center of consciousness connected to natural instinct. Their instincts are intertwined with who they are. On the other hand, an animal that is fully domesticated, is more under the control of humans. In domesticated animals, humans help induce a virtual secondary center in the animal. Human can induce a virtual conscious mind, that is unique to the animal, based on training, by the owner(s). But in doing so, the animal is no longer capable of fully fending for themselves in the wild. Their natural instincts are partially cut off. The same is true of humans. We have two centers of consciousness with the secondary more than virtual, as it is in domesticated animals. We pick up training much easier

    The tree of knowledge of good and evil or law became a way for humans, to domesticate other humans, causing them to lose their natural instincts. Law was a collective virtual secondary induction, that was placed on top of a secondary, that was innate and distinct. Before eating of the tree of life, law was innate, via instinct; tree of life. It did not have to be taught from outside.

    Based on science, the DNA of the animal underlies not just physical attributes but also their instincts. Our DNA is very conservative, meaning genes do not change quickly, but take a long time to change. The change that appears to occur, is epigenetic, which is based on a secondary layer on top of the DNA, that modifies genetic output, coming from our conservative genes.

    In the case of the domestic animal, its instinctive DNA, is still there, being conserved. However, the DNA output for instinct is less conscious, due to the impact of the virtual secondary induction and epigenetic changes. The genes behind the DNA instinct, become semi-blocked, with respect to consciousness, but it still exists. If the animal was to escape, and live on their own, their DNA instinct will start to reappear; feral animal, as the epigenetic layer slowly dissolves. The same is true of humans.

    In the Adam and Eve symbolism, once they eat of the tree of knowledge; law, they become a domesticated animal. Before this, they were more of a wild or natural animal. But once they chose the virtual secondary of law, then instinct; the tree of life, becomes more off limits; unconscious, due to the epigenetic connections to the DNA. It still remains, in tack, but it is sealed, but for a future time. The DNA and natural instinct is connected to the immoral soul, due to its long term conservative nature. While the conscious mind and law is always changing; dies and becomes reborn into new law. Law can even amplify death, such as will the laws of dictators.

    Jesus was a sacrifice for sin, with sin connected to the law. Sin is only imputed where there s a law. If you repeal a law, there is no longer a crime or sin for the exact same behavior. Or if you forgive the sin, like a judge, who will not send anyone to prison, law is made ineffectual. The symbolism of forgiveness of sin is about minimizing the domestication training of humans; tree of knowledge, so humans could first become more feral, and then return to instinct and DNA; immoral soul and the tree of life.
     
    #50 wellwisher, Jun 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  11. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    4,170
    Ratings:
    +2,185
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    1 John 3 New Century Version (NCV)
    We Are God’s Children

    3 The Father has loved us so much that we are called children of God. And we really are his children

    Hypothetical: This Bible verse is true ...:
    If we are God's children, then God is our Father
    IF ( (God is immortal) AND (I am His Child) ) THEN I am immortal too
    IF (Eve is God's child) THEN Eve is immortal

    So the word "immortal" is already solved
    In this context the word "soul" is not that important
    At least we know we are not the body, nor the mind, nor the emotions

    BUT we are immortal ... that is nice to know
     
  12. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    2,845
    Ratings:
    +1,479
    Religion:
    diversity
    Apologies. I am confused. Based on Psalm 139:8 ( and other places too ) I thought that Ancient Jews did believe in an afterlife.

    Can you help me with this?
     
  13. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    8,073
    Ratings:
    +564
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    People don't die from eating ripe fruit, but they can die spiritually or wish they were dead--they were expelled from the Garden.
     
  14. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    7,111
    Ratings:
    +1,881
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    he didn't
     
  15. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2018
    Messages:
    503
    Ratings:
    +68
    Religion:
    methodist
    But who first made up the lie of a soul that survives death?Is it recorded anywhere in the bible?Who first made up the idea?:confused:
     
  16. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2008
    Messages:
    1,789
    Ratings:
    +252
    Religion:
    Christian
    @dybmh :

    Deeje said "The ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife" (post #41)

    dybmh replied : "Based on Psalm 139:8 ( and other places too ) I thought that Ancient Jews did believe in an afterlife." (dybmh in post #52)


    dybmh, Your are actually quite correct on this point. @Deeje is mistaken on this specific point.

    The ancient Jews and Christians BOTH believed in an afterlife and existence of a cognisant spirit after death. The early Judeo-Christian literature is full of references to and descriptions of the world of spirits. For example, even the talmud contains many, many wonderful stories of the cognisant spirits of mankind and their interactions and communications. Other literature of the Talmudic period provide many examples of the body and soul in partnership. “Just as the Holy One of Blessing fills the world, so does the soul [neshamah] fill the body. Just as the Holy One of Blessing sees but cannot be seen, so does the soul see but cannot be seen… Just as the Holy One of Blessing is pure, so is the soul pure” (Berakhot 10a).

    In Midrash Leviticus Rabbah, we read that the soul is a guest in the body (which it directs).

    Often the Talmud provides wonderful anecdotes which are applicable in multiple levels. For example, from the tractate Sanhedrin: The Emperor Antoninus tries to convince Rabbi Yehudah Hanasi that the body and soul can each excuse themselves from sin by claiming that the transgression is the fault of the other, since without its counterpart, it is lifeless.
    R. Yehudah disputes this with a parable that is also a model of the relationship of the spirit and body. "Two guards–one blind and one lame–are in a garden. Together, they are able to steal some fruit from a high tree. When caught, each claims that he is obviously unable to commit the crime due to his disability. In the end, the orchard owner places the lame man on the back of the blind man, and they are judged as one" (91b). Similarly, God judges the actions of the body and spirit in partnership after returning the spirit to the body at resurrection.

    Many Talmudic Rabbis taught that the spirit both exists separately from the body, and the spirit also exists in a fully conscious state in an ethereal realm (Ketubbot 77b, Berakhot 18b-19a, and elsewhere)

    Let me know if other examples are needed. There are many, many, examples in the early Judeo-Christian literature that describes the early worldviews and doctrines of early Judaism and early Christianity on this specific subject that allow us to compare early christian worldviews and doctrines with the evolving theories and interpretations adopted by the many competing later christian movements.

    In any case, I hope your spiritual journey is good dybmh

    Clear
    φυτωτζω
     
    #56 Clear, Jun 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  17. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    8,633
    Ratings:
    +2,609
    Religion:
    Christian
    Just about every culture 5000 years ago had a tree of knowledge of good and evil.
     
  18. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    2,845
    Ratings:
    +1,479
    Religion:
    diversity
    This is wonderful. Thank you so very kindly. One follow-up question: Would you please provide the page reference in Midrash Rabbah Leviticus? I would expect there are many gems to be uncovered there in the surrounding pages.

    Many blessings to you and yours wherever you roam,
     
  19. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    8,693
    Ratings:
    +3,854
    Religion:
    Gnostic Atheism
    The question is how she could know it was a lie. Because someone else not looking like a serpent said otherwise?

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  20. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    4,808
    Ratings:
    +2,755
    Religion:
    Christian
    So what. Is Genesis and Revelation not part of the same book?

    You have to use one part to explain the other parts.

    There is much in Genesis, that only gets explained in the Psalms...1 Corinthians....Romans....etc., etc.

    Using the other books is how you can arrive at an accurate understanding of it!
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...