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Quick question about eve and the devil and the garden of eden

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If the soul has not sinned. It cannot die. It is pure.

Is there a single soul in the Bible who was sinless and didn't die? (Romans 3:23)

Jesus was the only other sinless human (apart from Adam) and he died. Jesus was in his tomb for three days and then God raised him from the dead, but not in a physical body. (1 Peter 3:18) His spiritual body was raised immortal.

If Jesus was God, then who resurrected him?
If Jesus was God, then he could not die, since immortals cannot die.
If Jesus was God and he didn't really die, then the ransom wasn't paid, our sins are not forgiven, and we are all still 'dead in our trespasses'.

We just have different views on it is all.

I am sure that you'll agree that we need to get things right. Different views just won't do...the truth is the truth, not because we want to believe it, but because its the truth. We either have an immortal soul that survives death to go to some invisible realm....or we don't. Death comes to all of us so we'd better know the truth about what happens when we die. The ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife....Jesus was a Jew and would not have taught such a thing. He both taught and demonstrated resurrection. (John 11:11-14)

The Bible says we "sleep" in an unconscious state (Ecclesiastes 9:10).....but you disagree and want to adopt the lie that satan told to the woman in Eden? Can I ask why?[/quote]
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Is there a single soul in the Bible who was sinless and didn't die? (

Enoch was transmogrified by the Lord.

Genesis 5:24

24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

And I think Daniel or Elijah? As well I'm not sure I'll have to research.

Jesus was the only other sinless human (apart from Adam) and he died.

Adam sinned, he sinned when he ate of the fruit with Eve in Eden. It's the whole reason they got tossed out of Eden.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Enoch was transmogrified by the Lord.

Genesis 5:24

24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Enoch was an outstanding example of faith in ancient times.....“Enoch kept walking with the true God.” (Ge 5:18, 21-24; Heb 11:5; 12:1) As a prophet of Jehovah, he foretold God’s coming with His holy myriads to execute judgment against the ungodly. (Jude 14, 15) Likely persecution was brought against him because of his prophesying. However, God did not permit the opposers to kill Enoch. Instead, Jehovah “took him,” that is, cut short his life at the age of 365, an age far below that of most of his contemporaries. Enoch was “transferred so as not to see death,” which may mean that God put him in a prophetic trance and then terminated Enoch’s life while he was in the trance so that he did not experience the pangs of death. (Ge 5:24; Heb 11:5, 13) However, he was not taken to heaven, in view of Jesus’ clear statement at John 3:13. It appears that, as in the case of Moses’ body, Jehovah disposed of Enoch’s body, for “he was nowhere to be found.”—De 34:5, 6; Jude 9."

Enoch — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

And I think Daniel or Elijah? As well I'm not sure I'll have to research.

Daniel had visions and dreams. He was told to seal up his writings because no one would understand them until "the time of the end". (Daniel 12:4; 10-12)

Elijah was taken up in a windstorm but he did not die. He was simply transported to another location in spectacular fashion. He wrote a letter from his new location.

Adam sinned, he sinned when he ate of the fruit with Eve in Eden. It's the whole reason they got tossed out of Eden.

Adam chose to sin. He was not created sinful. He was created sinless and so was his wife. He had no excuse for his disobedience because it was a considered choice to disobey the only command with the death penalty attached to it. The woman was deceived by the serpent, but Adam wasn't. That is why sin came through the man, not the woman. (Romans 5:12)
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
In the garden of eden the devil told eve that she would not die when you ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Which was a lie.But were in the bible does it say the devil made up the idea of the immortal soul?:confused:
Nowhere. Obviously.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Who said? Moses was not even around when the Babylonian exile took place. He died before they entered the Promised Land.

That's right. Moses didn't write the Pentateuch .. It was written 800 years after Moses.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The Tree of knowledge of good and evil is symbolic of law. Law teaches us the differences between good and evil behavior, using positive and negative reinforcement.

Law is connected to the conscious mind; willpower and choice. Law gives us a choice for behavior, based on the cost benefit analysis, defined by a legal outcome. Prohibition inducing temptation is indicative of law also directing our choices via temptation. On the other hand, instinct is natural and is connected to the DNA and the unconscious mind. Law is the tree of knowledge, while natural instinct is the tree of life. Law is not innate, like instinct. Law is connected to the conscious mind and conscious choices.

The best way to understand how and why death appears, by accepting law; eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, can be understood by considering domesticated animals.

Natural animals have one center of consciousness connected to natural instinct. Their instincts are intertwined with who they are. On the other hand, an animal that is fully domesticated, is more under the control of humans. In domesticated animals, humans help induce a virtual secondary center in the animal. Human can induce a virtual conscious mind, that is unique to the animal, based on training, by the owner(s). But in doing so, the animal is no longer capable of fully fending for themselves in the wild. Their natural instincts are partially cut off. The same is true of humans. We have two centers of consciousness with the secondary more than virtual, as it is in domesticated animals. We pick up training much easier

The tree of knowledge of good and evil or law became a way for humans, to domesticate other humans, causing them to lose their natural instincts. Law was a collective virtual secondary induction, that was placed on top of a secondary, that was innate and distinct. Before eating of the tree of life, law was innate, via instinct; tree of life. It did not have to be taught from outside.

Based on science, the DNA of the animal underlies not just physical attributes but also their instincts. Our DNA is very conservative, meaning genes do not change quickly, but take a long time to change. The change that appears to occur, is epigenetic, which is based on a secondary layer on top of the DNA, that modifies genetic output, coming from our conservative genes.

In the case of the domestic animal, its instinctive DNA, is still there, being conserved. However, the DNA output for instinct is less conscious, due to the impact of the virtual secondary induction and epigenetic changes. The genes behind the DNA instinct, become semi-blocked, with respect to consciousness, but it still exists. If the animal was to escape, and live on their own, their DNA instinct will start to reappear; feral animal, as the epigenetic layer slowly dissolves. The same is true of humans.

In the Adam and Eve symbolism, once they eat of the tree of knowledge; law, they become a domesticated animal. Before this, they were more of a wild or natural animal. But once they chose the virtual secondary of law, then instinct; the tree of life, becomes more off limits; unconscious, due to the epigenetic connections to the DNA. It still remains, in tack, but it is sealed, but for a future time. The DNA and natural instinct is connected to the immoral soul, due to its long term conservative nature. While the conscious mind and law is always changing; dies and becomes reborn into new law. Law can even amplify death, such as will the laws of dictators.

Jesus was a sacrifice for sin, with sin connected to the law. Sin is only imputed where there s a law. If you repeal a law, there is no longer a crime or sin for the exact same behavior. Or if you forgive the sin, like a judge, who will not send anyone to prison, law is made ineffectual. The symbolism of forgiveness of sin is about minimizing the domestication training of humans; tree of knowledge, so humans could first become more feral, and then return to instinct and DNA; immoral soul and the tree of life.
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Can you tell me where I will find the words "immortal soul" in the Bible?
1 John 3 New Century Version (NCV)
We Are God’s Children

3 The Father has loved us so much that we are called children of God. And we really are his children

Hypothetical: This Bible verse is true ...:
If we are God's children, then God is our Father
IF ( (God is immortal) AND (I am His Child) ) THEN I am immortal too
IF (Eve is God's child) THEN Eve is immortal

So the word "immortal" is already solved
In this context the word "soul" is not that important
At least we know we are not the body, nor the mind, nor the emotions

BUT we are immortal ... that is nice to know
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife
Apologies. I am confused. Based on Psalm 139:8 ( and other places too ) I thought that Ancient Jews did believe in an afterlife.

Can you help me with this?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
In the garden of eden the devil told eve that she would not die when you ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Which was a lie.But were in the bible does it say the devil made up the idea of the immortal soul?:confused:

People don't die from eating ripe fruit, but they can die spiritually or wish they were dead--they were expelled from the Garden.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
In the garden of eden the devil told eve that she would not die when you ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Which was a lie.But were in the bible does it say the devil made up the idea of the immortal soul?:confused:
he didn't
 

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
It doesn't. By telling her that she would not die, when God said that they would, death came early when their firstborn son murdered his brother in a fit of jealousy.

Adam lived for 930 years, so physical death was not immediate but from the day they ate the fruit, they were separated from God, experiencing spiritual death. Physical death would occur after God had allowed them to fulfill his mandate to "fill the earth" with their kind.

When they experienced death, it went against their 'programming' so in time, when false religious ideas started to creep in, a continuation of life in some invisible realm, seemed like the only way to make death acceptable. Since all false worship carries this idea, and all false worship is satan's idea, then life after death simply perpetuates his first lie, making it appear as if God was the liar, not himself.

But who first made up the lie of a soul that survives death?Is it recorded anywhere in the bible?Who first made up the idea?:confused:
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
@dybmh :

Deeje said "The ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife" (post #41)

dybmh replied : "Based on Psalm 139:8 ( and other places too ) I thought that Ancient Jews did believe in an afterlife." (dybmh in post #52)


dybmh, Your are actually quite correct on this point. @Deeje is mistaken on this specific point.

The ancient Jews and Christians BOTH believed in an afterlife and existence of a cognisant spirit after death. The early Judeo-Christian literature is full of references to and descriptions of the world of spirits. For example, even the talmud contains many, many wonderful stories of the cognisant spirits of mankind and their interactions and communications. Other literature of the Talmudic period provide many examples of the body and soul in partnership. “Just as the Holy One of Blessing fills the world, so does the soul [neshamah] fill the body. Just as the Holy One of Blessing sees but cannot be seen, so does the soul see but cannot be seen… Just as the Holy One of Blessing is pure, so is the soul pure” (Berakhot 10a).

In Midrash Leviticus Rabbah, we read that the soul is a guest in the body (which it directs).

Often the Talmud provides wonderful anecdotes which are applicable in multiple levels. For example, from the tractate Sanhedrin: The Emperor Antoninus tries to convince Rabbi Yehudah Hanasi that the body and soul can each excuse themselves from sin by claiming that the transgression is the fault of the other, since without its counterpart, it is lifeless.
R. Yehudah disputes this with a parable that is also a model of the relationship of the spirit and body. "Two guards–one blind and one lame–are in a garden. Together, they are able to steal some fruit from a high tree. When caught, each claims that he is obviously unable to commit the crime due to his disability. In the end, the orchard owner places the lame man on the back of the blind man, and they are judged as one" (91b). Similarly, God judges the actions of the body and spirit in partnership after returning the spirit to the body at resurrection.

Many Talmudic Rabbis taught that the spirit both exists separately from the body, and the spirit also exists in a fully conscious state in an ethereal realm (Ketubbot 77b, Berakhot 18b-19a, and elsewhere)

Let me know if other examples are needed. There are many, many, examples in the early Judeo-Christian literature that describes the early worldviews and doctrines of early Judaism and early Christianity on this specific subject that allow us to compare early christian worldviews and doctrines with the evolving theories and interpretations adopted by the many competing later christian movements.

In any case, I hope your spiritual journey is good dybmh

Clear
φυτωτζω
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
The Tree of knowledge of good and evil is symbolic of law. Law teaches us the differences between good and evil behavior, using positive and negative reinforcement.

Law is connected to the conscious mind; willpower and choice. Law gives us a choice for behavior, based on the cost benefit analysis, defined by a legal outcome. Prohibition inducing temptation is indicative of law also directing our choices via temptation. On the other hand, instinct is natural and is connected to the DNA and the unconscious mind. Law is the tree of knowledge, while natural instinct is the tree of life. Law is not innate, like instinct. Law is connected to the conscious mind and conscious choices.

The best way to understand how and why death appears, by accepting law; eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, can be understood by considering domesticated animals.

Natural animals have one center of consciousness connected to natural instinct. Their instincts are intertwined with who they are. On the other hand, an animal that is fully domesticated, is more under the control of humans. In domesticated animals, humans help induce a virtual secondary center in the animal. Human can induce a virtual conscious mind, that is unique to the animal, based on training, by the owner(s). But in doing so, the animal is no longer capable of fully fending for themselves in the wild. Their natural instincts are partially cut off. The same is true of humans. We have two centers of consciousness with the secondary more than virtual, as it is in domesticated animals. We pick up training much easier

The tree of knowledge of good and evil or law became a way for humans, to domesticate other humans, causing them to lose their natural instincts. Law was a collective virtual secondary induction, that was placed on top of a secondary, that was innate and distinct. Before eating of the tree of life, law was innate, via instinct; tree of life. It did not have to be taught from outside.

Based on science, the DNA of the animal underlies not just physical attributes but also their instincts. Our DNA is very conservative, meaning genes do not change quickly, but take a long time to change. The change that appears to occur, is epigenetic, which is based on a secondary layer on top of the DNA, that modifies genetic output, coming from our conservative genes.

In the case of the domestic animal, its instinctive DNA, is still there, being conserved. However, the DNA output for instinct is less conscious, due to the impact of the virtual secondary induction and epigenetic changes. The genes behind the DNA instinct, become semi-blocked, with respect to consciousness, but it still exists. If the animal was to escape, and live on their own, their DNA instinct will start to reappear; feral animal, as the epigenetic layer slowly dissolves. The same is true of humans.

In the Adam and Eve symbolism, once they eat of the tree of knowledge; law, they become a domesticated animal. Before this, they were more of a wild or natural animal. But once they chose the virtual secondary of law, then instinct; the tree of life, becomes more off limits; unconscious, due to the epigenetic connections to the DNA. It still remains, in tack, but it is sealed, but for a future time. The DNA and natural instinct is connected to the immoral soul, due to its long term conservative nature. While the conscious mind and law is always changing; dies and becomes reborn into new law. Law can even amplify death, such as will the laws of dictators.

Jesus was a sacrifice for sin, with sin connected to the law. Sin is only imputed where there s a law. If you repeal a law, there is no longer a crime or sin for the exact same behavior. Or if you forgive the sin, like a judge, who will not send anyone to prison, law is made ineffectual. The symbolism of forgiveness of sin is about minimizing the domestication training of humans; tree of knowledge, so humans could first become more feral, and then return to instinct and DNA; immoral soul and the tree of life.

Just about every culture 5000 years ago had a tree of knowledge of good and evil.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@dybmh :

Concerning your quote of Deeje that "The ancient Jews did not believe in an afterlife", you said

I am confused. Based on Psalm 139:8 ( and other places too ) I thought that Ancient Jews did believe in an afterlife. (dybmh in post #52)


You actually quite correct on this point dybmh. @Deeje is mistaken on this specific point.

The ancient Jews and Christians BOTH believed in an afterlife and existence of a cognisant spirit after death. The early Judeo-Christian literature is full of references to and descriptions of the world of spirits. For example, even the talmud contains many, many wonderful stories of the cognisant spirits of mankind and their interactions and communications. Other literature of the Talmudic period provide many examples of the body and soul in partnership. “Just as the Holy One of Blessing fills the world, so does the soul [neshamah] fill the body. Just as the Holy One of Blessing sees but cannot be seen, so does the soul see but cannot be seen… Just as the Holy One of Blessing is pure, so is the soul pure” (Berakhot 10a).

In Midrash Leviticus Rabbah, we read that the soul is a guest in the body (which it directs).

Often the Talmud provides wonderful anecdotes which are applicable in multiple levels. For example, from the tractate Sanhedrin: The Emperor Antoninus tries to convince Rabbi Yehudah Hanasi that the body and soul can each excuse themselves from sin by claiming that the transgression is the fault of the other, since without its counterpart, it is lifeless.
R. Yehudah disputes this with a parable that is also a model of the relationship of the spirit and body. "Two guards–one blind and one lame–are in a garden. Together, they are able to steal some fruit from a high tree. When caught, each claims that he is obviously unable to commit the crime due to his disability. In the end, the orchard owner places the lame man on the back of the blind man, and they are judged as one" (91b). Similarly, God judges the actions of the body and spirit in partnership after returning the spirit to the body at resurrection.

Many Talmudic Rabbis taught that the spirit both exists separately from the body, and the spirit also exists in a fully conscious state in an ethereal realm (Ketubbot 77b, Berakhot 18b-19a, and elsewhere)

Let me know if other examples are needed. There are many, many, examples in the early Judeo-Christian literature that describes the early worldviews and doctrines of early Judaism and early Christianity on this specific subject that allow us to compare early christian worldviews and doctrines with the evolving theories and interpretations adopted by the many competing later christian movements.

In any case, I hope your spiritual journey is good dybmh

Clear
φυτωτζω
This is wonderful. Thank you so very kindly. One follow-up question: Would you please provide the page reference in Midrash Rabbah Leviticus? I would expect there are many gems to be uncovered there in the surrounding pages.

Many blessings to you and yours wherever you roam,
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
In the garden of eden the devil told eve that she would not die when you ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Which was a lie.But were in the bible does it say the devil made up the idea of the immortal soul?:confused:

The question is how she could know it was a lie. Because someone else not looking like a serpent said otherwise?

Ciao

- viole
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
As I said, retrofitting. The Garden story itself says nothing of the kind,

So what. Is Genesis and Revelation not part of the same book?

You have to use one part to explain the other parts.

There is much in Genesis, that only gets explained in the Psalms...1 Corinthians....Romans....etc., etc.

Using the other books is how you can arrive at an accurate understanding of it!
 
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