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Quick question about eve and the devil and the garden of eden

siti

Well-Known Member
Not sure what you mean.
When the phrase "immortal soul" is used, it is generally taken to mean that when we die, the non-physical part of us doesn't die, it continues - without its body - to dwell in immaterial realms such as heaven or hell - that is the doctrine of the immortal soul - some people argue that this was a lie invented by the devil to cover up for the "you will not die" lie - for which he becomes known (later in scripture) as the "father of the lie". I'm not arguing in favour of the actual veracity of this, but if you're taking the Bible verbatim, that's the most logical explanation. The devil lied to Eve saying that she would not die and then lied to everyone else when she did die by telling them that she/and they hadn't really died but had an immaterial soul that continued to live after the death of the body. God never said any such thing as far as I can tell.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Can you tell me where I will find the words "immortal soul" in the Bible?

Plenty of references to chose from.

Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

1 Corinthians 15:53 - For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 5:28-29 - Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (Read More...)

1 Timothy 6:16 - Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

John 3:13 - And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

Psalms 146:4 - His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Romans 2:7 - To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Genesis 3:19 - In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
When the phrase "immortal soul" is used, it is generally taken to mean that when we die, the non-physical part of us doesn't die, it continues - without its body - to dwell in immaterial realms such as heaven or hell - that is the doctrine of the immortal soul - some people argue that this was a lie invented by the devil to cover up for the "you will not die" lie - for which he becomes known (later in scripture) as the "father of the lie". I'm not arguing in favour of the actual veracity of this, but if you're taking the Bible verbatim, that's the most logical explanation. The devil lied to Eve saying that she would not die and then lied to everyone else when she did die by telling them that she/and they hadn't really died but had an immaterial soul that continued to live after the death of the body. God never said any such thing as far as I can tell.

Your getting your wires crossed there a bit I think.

Where did Satan lie to everyone else about Eve not dying? I am not sure where you are getting that from.

Satan lied to Eve by twisting the truth. Its what he does.

Satan twisted the truth when he said "Surely you won't die". As in he is suggesting will not die immediately. Which is a partial truth. Because she did not die right then and there at that moment when she ate the fruit. But it was a lie, because by eating the fruit she now obtained the ability to die, because of sin.

You see Adam and Eve were completely innocent and free of sin up to that point. But by disobeying God by eating of the forbidden fruit, now they have sinned. This is reflected in Genesis 2: 25 this is their innocence and being free of sin.

Genesis 2:25
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Much like a child taking a bath with a younger sibling, nakedness is not taboo, because they are innocent and know not the ways of the world.

And then later in Genesis 3:7 it is shown they have lost that innocence because now they realize what their sexual organs are for.

Genesis 3:7
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Here they show their shame.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The oldest creation myth in the Bible isn't in the Book of Genesis at all. It is alluded to in the Book of Isaiah, in the Book of Job and in Psalms.

The clearest and fullest biblical account of this ancient myth appears in Psalm 74: “For God... Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters. Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness. Thou didst cleave the fountain and the flood: thou driedst up mighty rivers. The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun. Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter” (74:12-17).

Genesis of Genesis: Where Did the Biblical Story of Creation Come From?

You know, I want to gag every time I read that old archaic English.....why not use a translation that is in today's language? Who talks like that any more? :facepalm:

And referring to Asaph or Isaiah as being around before Moses' account in Genesis is a little weird don't you think? They were written long after his.

Psalm 74:12-17....ESV
"Yet God my King is from of old,
working salvation in the midst of the earth.
13 You divided the sea by your might;
you broke the heads of the sea monsters on the waters.
14 You crushed the heads of Leviathan;
you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness.
15 You split open springs and brooks;
you dried up ever-flowing streams.
16 Yours is the day, yours also the night;
you have established the heavenly lights and the sun.
17 You have fixed all the boundaries of the earth;
you have made summer and winter."


How does that in any way supplant what is written in Genesis? Moses' creation account has a lot of detail.
This is not a creation account.

"Psalm 74 describes God’s record of salvation for his people, and verses 13 and 14 refer symbolically to his deliverance of Israel from Egypt. Here the term “sea monsters [Heb., than·ni·nimʹ, plural of tan·ninʹ]” is used as a parallel expression to “Leviathan,” and the crushing of the heads of Leviathan may well refer to the crushing defeat administered to Pharaoh and his army at the time of the Exodus. The Aramaic Targums here give “the strong ones of Pharaoh” in place of “the heads of Leviathan.” (Compare Eze 29:3-5, where Pharaoh is likened to a “great sea monster” in the midst of the Nile canals; also Eze 32:2.) Isaiah 27:1 apparently employs Leviathan (LXX, “the dragon”) as a symbol of an empire, an organization that is international in scope and that is dominated by one who himself is referred to as “serpent” and “dragon.” (Re 12:9) The prophecy is one of restoration for Israel, and therefore Jehovah’s ‘turning attention’ to Leviathan must include Babylon. However, verses 12 and 13 consider Assyria and Egypt as well."

Leviathan — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
 

sooda

Veteran Member
You know, I want to gag every time I read that old archaic English.....why not use a translation that is in today's language? Who talks like that any more? :facepalm:

And referring to Asaph or Isaiah as being around before Moses' account in Genesis is a little weird don't you think? They were written long after his.

Psalm 74:12-17....ESV
"Yet God my King is from of old,
working salvation in the midst of the earth.
13 You divided the sea by your might;
you broke the heads of the sea monsters on the waters.
14 You crushed the heads of Leviathan;
you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness.
15 You split open springs and brooks;
you dried up ever-flowing streams.
16 Yours is the day, yours also the night;
you have established the heavenly lights and the sun.
17 You have fixed all the boundaries of the earth;
you have made summer and winter."


How does that in any way supplant what is written in Genesis? Moses' creation account has a lot of detail.
This is not a creation account.

"Psalm 74 describes God’s record of salvation for his people, and verses 13 and 14 refer symbolically to his deliverance of Israel from Egypt. Here the term “sea monsters [Heb., than·ni·nimʹ, plural of tan·ninʹ]” is used as a parallel expression to “Leviathan,” and the crushing of the heads of Leviathan may well refer to the crushing defeat administered to Pharaoh and his army at the time of the Exodus.

The Aramaic Targums here give “the strong ones of Pharaoh” in place of “the heads of Leviathan.” (Compare Eze 29:3-5, where Pharaoh is likened to a “great sea monster” in the midst of the Nile canals; also Eze 32:2.) Isaiah 27:1 apparently employs Leviathan (LXX, “the dragon”) as a symbol of an empire, an organization that is international in scope and that is dominated by one who himself is referred to as “serpent” and “dragon.” (Re 12:9)

The prophecy is one of restoration for Israel, and therefore Jehovah’s ‘turning attention’ to Leviathan must include Babylon. However, verses 12 and 13 consider Assyria and Egypt as well."

Leviathan — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Genesis was written during the Babylonian exile.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Plenty of references to chose from.

Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

1 Corinthians 15:53 - For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 5:28-29 - Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (Read More...)

1 Timothy 6:16 - Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

John 3:13 - And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

Psalms 146:4 - His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Romans 2:7 - To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Genesis 3:19 - In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

My question was...."Can you tell me where I will find the words "immortal soul" in the Bible?"

The words "immortal" and "soul" do not appear side by side in any passage of the Bible...because there is no such thing as an immortal soul. The soul is a living, breathing creature so that when breathing stops, the soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)

The "spirit" that returns to God is not the "soul" but the "breath" of life that God will restore in the coming resurrection of the dead. (John 5:28-29)
Go into the meanings of these words in a good concordance and see for yourself.

If you read your quoted verses, not once do we see the words used together. That means that immortality has nothing to do with the soul, which is mortal and dies.

More later, have to go now....
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
The words "immortal" and "soul" do not appear side by side in any passage of the Bible...because there is no such thing as an immortal soul. The soul is a living, breathing creature so that when breathing stops, the soul dies. (

If the soul has not sinned. It cannot die. It is pure.

The "spirit" that returns to God is not the "soul" but the "breath" of life that God will restore in the coming resurrection of the dead.

We just have different views on it is all.

If you read your quoted verses, not once do we see the words used together. That means that immortality has nothing to do with the soul, which is mortal and dies.

Again I point to my my first answe above.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
In the garden of eden the devil told eve that she would not die when you ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Which was a lie.But were in the bible does it say the devil made up the idea of the immortal soul?:confused:

God said originally 'dying you shall die' literally. When you sinned you will spiritually die and physical processes leading to death will follow

Man was made able not to sin. Part of the fall was the loss of ability to choose good in a totally unselfish manner. From then on man's nature was tinged with sin and marred by the fall.

I don't know if the devil understood this but he probably knew he was somehow bringing death into the world and Jesus said 'he was a murderer form the beginning'
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
In the garden of eden the devil told eve that she would not die when you ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Which was a lie.But were in the bible does it say the devil made up the idea of the immortal soul?:confused:

The devil told Eve?

Read it again:

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made." Gen 3:3

It was the serpent who spoke to Eve.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The oldest creation myth in the Bible isn't in the Book of Genesis at all. It is alluded to in the Book of Isaiah, in the Book of Job and in Psalms.

The clearest and fullest biblical account of this ancient myth appears in Psalm 74: “For God... Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters. Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness. Thou didst cleave the fountain and the flood: thou driedst up mighty rivers. The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun. Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter” (74:12-17).

Genesis of Genesis: Where Did the Biblical Story of Creation Come From?
How do you date it as oldest? I do know part of the Psalms have been traced to Canaanite and Ugarit cuneiform writings.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
If the soul has not sinned. It cannot die. It is pure.



We just have different views on it is all.



Again I point to my my first answe above.
Hope you are well, Enoch07.
If you meditate on this idea of an immortal soul...it means what? Immortal means it’s always living. But how can something always living, come back to life, ie., be resurrected?

These are contradictory ideas. The Bible mentions resurrection a lot. It never says anyone is immortal.

And, having the ability to live forever, does not necessarily imply immortality...one having the ability could still die: jumping off a cliff; eating poison; etc. But an immortal person, could never die.

A & E were given the ability. (Just like angels....they can be killed, the unfaithful ones will be.) A & E had the prospect of everlasting life before them, but they chose to disobey, effectively pulling away from Jehovah God, their Source of life. Psalms 36:9
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
God said originally 'dying you shall die' literally. When you sinned you will spiritually die and physical processes leading to death will follow

"spiritually die"?

What does that mean?

The Scripture never says any such thing.


Man was made able not to sin. Part of the fall was the loss of ability to choose good in a totally unselfish manner. From then on man's nature was tinged with sin and marred by the fall.

Where do you learn these things you speak? Certainly not from God.

What does "tinged with sin" mean?

I don't know if the devil understood this but he probably knew he was somehow bringing death into the world and Jesus said 'he was a murderer form the beginning'

Did the devil murder Adam and Eve?

No, I don't think so. It was Adam's sin that brought the death sentence for Adam.

The first murder was Cain killing his brother Abel.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
But how can something always living, come back to life, ie., be resurrected?

Salvation, an unrepentant soul is a lost soul or a person dead in Christ.

Salvation is the resurrection or saving of the soul.

It's a bit poetic but it's easy to understand.

These are contradictory ideas. The Bible mentions resurrection a lot. It never says anyone is immortal.

See above.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Immortal Soul? Psalms 139:8. Maybe not the first place. But it is clearly stated: heaven and hell ( Sheol ).

Selection_190.png


hyperlink >>> sefaria.org - Psalms 139:8
hyperlink >>> wikipedia.org - Sheol
hyperlink >>> wikipedia.org - Heaven in Judaism
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In the garden of eden the devil told eve that she would not die when you ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Which was a lie.But were in the bible does it say the devil made up the idea of the immortal soul?:confused:
Ahm, in the Garden story, the snake is not the devil. He gives good advice and tells no lies. Having listened to the snake, Eve is motivated by the correct realization that "the tree was to be desired to make one wise" ─ and who'd wish to argue with that?

(Nor does the story ever mention sin, original sin, the Fall of Man, or death entering the world ─ all that stuff is retrofitting from later centuries, along with casting the snake as evil. And the story explicitly says that God threw them out of the Garden to prevent them from eating from the tree of life and becoming immortal like him (Genesis 3:22) ─ no other motive is ever mentioned.)
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Ahm, in the Garden story, the snake is not the devil.

The Bible calls the Devil, "the original serpent," "that old serpent", @ Revelation 12:9

If Satan wasn't the one behind the serpent in Eden, calling him that would have no meaning.

And the Scriptures always have meaning!
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Bible calls the Devil, "the original serpent," "that old serpent", @ Revelation 12:9
As I said, retrofitting. The Garden story itself says nothing of the kind,
If Satan wasn't the one behind the serpent in Eden, calling him that would have no meaning.
Why? Confining yourself to the text of the story, quote me the part that shows the snake doing anything objectively bad.
And the Scriptures always have meaning!
Even if we assume that's correct, it still doesn't follow that the meaning is the one you want.
 
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