Proof of Islam?

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I'll add, that according to the ideas presented by the Qur'an, the choice is not truly that of Wolf Spirit, no matter how much it may seem to be so, nor was it their choice actually to be linked to and given the symbol of the Wolf just like the Fox was made my Fylgja.

Wolf Spirit is, according to the ideas presented or suggested by the Qur'an, in the midst of a spiritual test. This "test" is not the sort where one can do this or do that, but rather a test in the sense of a chemical test which changes the color or chemical interactions end up bringing about or making manifest the truth or the result regarding what Wolf Spirit is and will be, as their whole life is such a chemical and revealing litmus test.

The Qur'an strongly and repeatedly indicates that those who are made into whatever they are made into are made into such only by God alone, and so if one is made into a Muslim that is God's work, responsibility, and choosing, and if one is made to reject or one is made to oppose as an enemy, it is God who is "setting them up" as such and in opposition to manifest more scenes which through whatever is played out as God decides and generates in every detail moment to moment, the truth is made manifest, even through conflict and struggle and difficulties and tragedies and zero sum win or lose competition and combat.

So for us, we can only really watch and play our roles and parts and wait and see what it is God is doing to Wolf Spirit or will bring about. God can likewise, freely take away an understanding or remove Islam from anyone as our entire condition at any moment down to our thoughts, feelings, actions, and beliefs, what and if we find something funny ir sad or laugh or cry, is generated by God freely and unconditioned, so that we are wholly slaves of Omnium Deus Regnator.

If Wolf Spirit is dazzled by the Qur'an or finds it obnoxious, it is said to be God making it so, and God's will that they perceive it this way or that or react this way or that.

The Qur'an is quite explicit about this, but such extremely deterministic or fatalistic ideas or active Ocassionalism is unappealing to most, even most Muslims, who would deny such in favor of modern ideas of agency which they find preferable regardless of any difficulties it may theologically create.

That may also be why the idea of "a religion for certain people" was appealing to me or noticed by me, since the Qur'an makes a similar suggestion in various ways throughout.

Here is one such example:
"
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might make manifest through you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed; "

"
For every religion We have appointed rites which they perform. So, [O Muhammad], let the disbelievers not contend with you over the matter but invite them to your Lord. Indeed, you are upon straight guidance.
And if they dispute with you, then say, " Allah is most knowing of what you do.
Allah will judge between you on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which you used to differ."
Do you not know that Allah knows what is in the heaven and earth? Indeed, that is in a Record. Indeed that, for Allah, is easy.
And they worship besides Allah that for which He has not sent down authority and that of which they have no knowledge. And there will not be for the wrongdoers any helper.
And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, you recognize in the faces of those who disbelieve disapproval. They are almost on the verge of assaulting those who recite to them Our verses. Say, "Then shall I inform you of [what is] worse than that? [It is] the Fire which Allah has promised those who disbelieve, and wretched is the destination."
O people, an example is presented, so listen to it. Indeed, those you invoke besides Allah will never create [as much as] a fly, even if they gathered together for that purpose. And if the fly should steal away from them a [tiny] thing, they could not recover it from him. Weak are the pursuer and pursued.
They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.
Allah chooses from the angels messengers and from the people. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Seeing.
He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them. And to Allah will be returned [all] matters.
O you who have believed, bow and prostrate and worship your Lord and do good - that you may succeed.
And strive for Allah with the striving due to Him. He has chosen you and has not placed upon you in the religion any difficulty. [It is] the religion of your father, Abraham. Allah named you "Muslims" before [in former scriptures] and in this [revelation] that the Messenger may be a witness over you and you may be witnesses over the people. So establish prayer and give zakah and hold fast to Allah . He is your protector; and excellent is the protector, and excellent is the helper. "

The Lord of The Fly.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

A response to "Shadow Wolf":
Also, in my humble opinion, it appears that you are the one with an ego, because you view yourself as superior.

A wolf trying to suppress and dominate another wolf, where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, among wolves! Haha its so fascinating to me how these animal symbols we become linked to really seem to play out in our own behaviors and interactions with the other animal associated people based on their associations. Very cool!

Anyway, here are some reasons to read the Qur'an and see if you believe it:

The Qur'an is some 1400 or so years old now.

It seems to some to contain "scientific things that no one at the time could have known!"

It is written in a unique style which is "speaking TO Muhammed rather than from Muhammed" all the while being rhyming and metric in pacing, like a poem while not being considered poetry but God's "Lecture" or "Recital" which is the meaning of the word "Qur'an".

It is meant to be therapeutic and relaxing for certain people as well as ego reducing since God takes credit and responsibility for absolutely everything whatsoever in it.

It is the religion and framework for billions of human beings currently so can help in communicating with some or bonding and receiving help potentially from a great number of people as an advantage, they often are initially fond of a convert and excited by it and very happy to be friendly and help with any matters if in need like better prices, repairs, information, whatever, like a "Brotherhood" or "Sisterhood" type advantage.

It is the most straightforward and basic of religions in what the Qur'an presents and covers many points of the other religions as a one stop shop.

Worship with cleansing or ablution, bowing, and prostrations can feel fulfilling, relaxing, even strangely empowering.

If you take a miraculous view of things you may become more attuned to receiving experiences as miraculous and this can make one feel very happy and thrilled with even mundane content and experiences.

It can give one a sense of protection and being watched over and guided by a supernatural power beyond any other.

It can make one feel good about their actions with the notion that it may be rewarded for what they are doing and its not silly or wasted which can give one more patience with the belief it is recorded and finally also a restraint through the belief that God will punish those who are bad or who we think fit the description of someone being bad or hurtful so that there is an underlying sense that there can be justice, even supernaturally within our lifetimes which can help from going and beating up all the shadows of our wolves in our lives.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

It does seem to be, from personal experience, that most Muslims are in Islam for reasons you mentioned, rather than possessing facts. Which is entirely acceptable, if that makes your quality of life better. It certainly makes other people’s lives better, if they are a good Muslim, since quite a lot of the commands ensure they are good people, if followed strictly. Personally though I would rather believe with evidence.

The one every Muslim seems to pull out is the challenge that Muhammad used to prove the Quran. That you should try to come up with a passage as good as a passage in the Quran.
However, I’d say that the passages in many religions are just as good, in my opinion better, than the Quran. There is no denying it’s brilliance, however, there are many Chinese Proverbs with no claim to divinity which I believe are just as amazing, or better.

If anyone would like to explain this further, feel free.[/QUOTE]

I will leave other Muslims to argue the case on the basis of proving the Qur'an to be true, for me what does it is what practicing as a Muslim makes me feel, which is a strong sense of peace and closeness to God.

 

[ChristineM]

Hello,

I am interested in finding out why Muslims believe Islam is the right religion, and discussing these points.
Alternatively, non-Muslims who have an idea as to why Muslims have this belief.

There are almost 2 billion Muslims, so there must be a reason they believe, however I have searched many different places and can’t find a reason I can accept.

Any reasons welcome, but especially if anyone has reasons which are more uncommon, as I have looked at the more common ones already.

This is coming from a Christian standpoint.

Thank you.

Just like any other religion Its down to indoctrination. A child is fed the religion of their parents, of their religious schooling, of their peers.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Ah yes, this does explain why most are Muslim. Probably why when I ask Muslim friends, they don’t really have a reason.



Thanks, these are some more robust reasons ^-^

I was discussing the logic approach with someone else. So this is basically, Islam is the most logical to believe in? Correct me if I’m wrong please.
Anyhow, they couldn’t explain why Islam was more logical than all the other religions out there, and why a non-religious person would believe in Islam over the apparently more logical idea of evolution.
(I tried to read the link, but my browser was formatting it strangely, as I’m on mobile. I’ll try again later.)

Then the miracles. I would say, miracles in Muhammad’s time, how can they be proven? The same issue with miracles today.
In addition, you could say that the bible has just as many miracles, and today people’s prayers being answered, etc...

And the final one...
Yes. I’d agree, that you might as well believe in something and give yourself a chance. I’d say Islam is pretty high risk, with all their detailed descriptions of Hell.
However, this doesn’t give you a belief. I don’t believe you can practise a religion properly without believing, nor can you be saved in the end without solid belief. Otherwise, you are just an imposter.
I wouldn’t say this proves Islam at all, simply gives you incentive to look into Islam and see whether it is correct. However, if it can be completely ruled out, then you might as well believe another one. Alternatively, if you find firm evidence for another religion, then Islam cannot be true.

Great replies! I meant by Logic specifically the Logic I presented there which gives mainly or firstly some logic for believing in God in general, which is the sort of God that seems to be referred to most clearly in the Qur'an.

The miraculous I meant to refer to were real life modern miracles occurring to us being something that makes religion more convincing for some, so that even logically understanding may not quite give as much surety as the "proof" through perceived "undeniable" "miracles".

I'll try to copy paste the Logic and Miracle story posts here for you since the formatting is causing issues for you. I will do that in following posts since they may be too long to include here in this post.

 

[RabbiO]

So by calculating carefully each we can cast our bet on the best and most likely horse to succeed by without severely messing uo the chances with others, sort of like a more advanced and elaborated upon Pascal's Wager I can give more detail on, but for now I'll link you to two things I posted elsewhere:

Some Logic or Rationale:
Relic's Blog

Some Magic or Miracles:
Relic's Blog

Don’t see many people directing folks to another forum from which they’ve been banned.

 

[Windwalker]

Hello,

I am interested in finding out why Muslims believe Islam is the right religion, and discussing these points.

Why are you starting with the idea that religion needs to be viewed as the "right" religion or the wrong one? Isn't that like saying someone is from the right culture or the "wrong culture"? Do they have the right or the wrong parents? Do they choose these? Or are they chosen by these?

There are almost 2 billion Muslims, so there must be a reason they believe, however I have searched many different places and can’t find a reason I can accept.

They were born to Muslim families in Muslim cultures? I think that's the obvious reason, and one quite easy for anyone to accept.

 

[Wolf Spirit]

Thanks for all that information!
Sorry I’ve only just been able to see some of your previous posts, I couldn’t see a chunk of replies for a while.

Your response above about it’s down to Allah actually makes the most sense, and explains it well. So basically we don’t have free will. Then we wouldn’t need any evidence for a particular religion, because if God wanted us to join, then he would make us join. Alternatively, he could make us feel compelled to join without actually forcing us, so we could still have freewill there.

The only thing I wanted to point out was this.

And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, you recognize in the faces of those who disbelieve disapproval.

Which verses are evidence? Because no one has given Quran verses as evidence yet, nor could I find any verses which seem like evidence online, and unfortunately I don’t have time to read the whole Quran. I might try though, after your suggestions.

The argument that makes the most sense to me is that Allah makes you become a Muslim, it’s not based on any reasoning, it just happens. However obviously it hasn’t for me, as I like to look at evidence, so I guess I’m a lost cause oof

A wolf trying to suppress and dominate another wolf, where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, among wolves!

Yes, it is interesting, isn’t it ^-^ Although it’s more of a defence than trying to dominate, I couldn’t care less about winning the point. To be honest, I wasn’t going to bother replying/defending, but I found it funny to do so.

Again, thanks for your time ^-^

 

[Wolf Spirit]

Why are you starting with the idea that religion needs to be viewed as the "right" religion or the wrong one? Isn't that like saying someone is from the right culture or the "wrong culture"? Do they have the right or the wrong parents? Do they choose these? Or are they chosen by these?


They were born to Muslim families in Muslim cultures? I think that's the obvious reason, and one quite easy for anyone to accept.

Again, this is nothing to do with my question.
If you’d like the answer, I have already replied to a message like this by someone else earlier on.

To expand, I believe there is one right religion. This is because when I look at religions, almost all of them are exclusive. They demand all your attention. They say that they are the only right religion. How can two opposites be right? Then there’s also the question of Atheism. Is that wrong or right, or can we not judge that also?

I can explain further, but this is not the topic to do so in.

 

[Wolf Spirit]

Warning: My answer is decidedly harsh.

I think Islam and Christianity are brilliant when it comes to indoctrination and preying on the weak. They are both a lot like unscrupulous used car salesmen, painting rosy pictures and making promises they cannot keep. Further, they unabashedly borrow the best of humanities morals and ethics and attempt to claim them as their own. And even worse, in addition to co-opting good ideas, they also claim that their horrible ideas (like scapegoating and tribalism), are good ideas.

Sorry, I didn’t see your reply or I’d have responded to it before.

This doesn’t have anything to do with the question?

 

[Wolf Spirit]

It seems that all religions use circular reasoning.....
"The book says so, it is the word of God so what it says, must be true."
"The profit said so. he spoke for God, it must be true. "

Religions give a status to their official texts that no one would confer on any other form of writing.
The older it is, and the more directly related to the founders or founder, the higher the status.

Such status takes no account of the fact that all men err, or that we have more factual information to day than they did in the past, but relies on the inferred inerrency of God.

Personally, I’d never use this reasoning to explain Christianity as I think it’s pointless (and it annoys me when others use it), I’d use things I believe to be evidence, but ok.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Logic to believe in God and Miracles:
Two Logics One Miracup(s) - Pastebin.com

Playful ways to understand Quranic thinking and to interpret and incorporate content from anywhere or anything, various Islamic concepts described in a lighthearted manner:

Part 1 Words and Permissions To Use Them: Part 1: Fafnir and Other Words - Pastebin.com

Part 2 Cosmological Self-Placement Charts and Concepts such as the "Economy of Merit":
Part 2: Cosmology, Economy/Commerce of Merit - Pastebin.com

Part 3 For Pleasures, For Pain:
Part 3: For Your Pleasure and Your Pain - Pastebin.com

Part 4 Definitions and Categories:
Part 4: Definitions and Categories for Self-Assignment - Pastebin.com

Part 5 The Magical Finale:
Part 5: The Magical Finale - Pastebin.com

 

[icehorse]

Sorry, I didn’t see your reply or I’d have responded to it before.

This doesn’t have anything to do with the question?

It does, but you have to connect the dots. I'm saying that - for the most part - they believe because either:

- they were indoctrinated at a young age before their critical thinking skills were developed
- they were in a weakened state (probably due to poverty), and preyed upon by unscrupulous salesmen (e.g. Imams)

Of course I know that there are exceptions, I'm talking about statistically significant numbers.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Don’t see many people directing folks to another forum from which they’ve been banned.

Would you like to suppress my ability to write about God here as well? Think about what you are doing and maybe also leave me be and stop persecuting me everywhere? I know how it is with you and persecution, so please lay off and don't try to disrupt my work or writing or enjoyment please. I'll be thinking about your nature.

 

[Windwalker]

Again, this is nothing to do with my question.

It most certainly does answer your question. You ask why so many are Muslims, and the obvious answer is that is the culture they were born into. 2 Billion of them did not "choose" their religion. Religion is mainly chosen for you by your culture. Of course you can change religions at an older age, but that is extremely rare comparatively speaking. Most people just stick with what works for them in their culture, like most Christians and Buddhists do as well.

If you’d like the answer, I have already replied to a message like this by someone else earlier on.

To expand, I believe there is one right religion. This is because when I look at religions, almost all of them are exclusive.

Um, no they aren't. Hinduism isn't exclusive. Buddhism isn't exclusive. AND.... Christianity isn't supposed to be exclusive either. It was born out the need to break down religious and cultural exclusivities. It got rid of this, where it's not about the beliefs and practices, but about universal love in Christ. Have you read the New Testament?

They demand all your attention. They say that they are the only right religion.

Hinduism doesn't. Buddhism doesn't. I think you mean to say the version of Christianity that you have been exposed to (likely fundamentalist), may say so, but they are clueless.

How can two opposites be right?

Who says they are opposite? Do some say hate your neighbor? Any?

Then there’s also the question of Atheism. Is that wrong or right, or can we not judge that also?

You can judge for yourself if that works for you or not. I think that's why some choose to be atheist. Because it works for them. It doesn't work for you. What you choose to believe, is a subjective matter.

 

[exchemist]

Hello,

I am interested in finding out why Muslims believe Islam is the right religion, and discussing these points.
Alternatively, non-Muslims who have an idea as to why Muslims have this belief.

There are almost 2 billion Muslims, so there must be a reason they believe, however I have searched many different places and can’t find a reason I can accept.

Any reasons welcome, but especially if anyone has reasons which are more uncommon, as I have looked at the more common ones already.

This is coming from a Christian standpoint.

Thank you.

What might be an interesting exercise would be be for you to examine the reasons why you think Christianity is the "right" religion, and then see if they would be any more persuasive, to an impartial observer, than the muslim ones.

 

[RabbiO]

Would you like to suppress my ability to write about God here as well? Think about what you are doing and maybe also leave me be and stop persecuting me everywhere? I know how it is with you and persecution, so please lay off and don't try to disrupt my work or writing or enjoyment please. I'll be thinking about your nature.

As I recall, you and I had only minimal interaction on the other forum. I took exception to a perceived attitude on your part and I also provided some information to you about myself. I am neither an administrator nor a moderator on that site. I was not privy to nor a party to any decision to ban you from that site.

As to my remark here, it was merely an observation - nothing more, nothing less.

 

[shunyadragon]

Hello,

I am interested in finding out why Muslims believe Islam is the right religion, and discussing these points.
Alternatively, non-Muslims who have an idea as to why Muslims have this belief.

There are almost 2 billion Muslims, so there must be a reason they believe, however I have searched many different places and can’t find a reason I can accept.

Any reasons welcome, but especially if anyone has reasons which are more uncommon, as I have looked at the more common ones already.

This is coming from a Christian standpoint.

Thank you.

The greatest desire of most believers of any religion is for a sense of community, and belonging. This question can be asked of believers of any religion. The desire is strongest for those raised in faith as in any religion. Islam has some appeal to recognizing Judaism, Christianity as progressive continuum of evolving belief.

For Islam like Judaism and Christianity I am inclined to the mystical side and have more empathy for this identity. In my view the shows that are the most comfortable are the shows that do not fit.

I am looking forward to the perspective of believers.

 

[Windwalker]

Unfortunately, I know many demand blind faith, and my quest to believe based on facts and evidence would bother them.

Where did you get this definition of faith from? If you're interesting in facts and evidence, try science.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

As I recall, you and I had only minimal interaction on the other forum. I took exception to a perceived attitude on your part and I also provided some information to you about myself. I am neither an administrator nor a moderator on that site. I was not privy to nor a party to any decision to ban you from that site.

As to my remark here, it was merely an observation - nothing more, nothing less.

That is a relief! I thought you were hunting me down and trying to get me in trouble in new places as well! Good to know that you have no ill intentions. How about animals? Have you ever felt an affinity towards or self association towards any particular animals, colors, terms, symbols, numbers, and things like that? If you'll indulge me. I wasn't able to continue viewing or typing on that website but my writing is still up and its very difficult to copy paste it elsewhere so linking to it is convenient for me if I think something I wrote may help anyone.

The decision to ban me from there came from my writing in my own little ghetto and corner of that website when I tried to post a table of contents for some of the videos I posted which puts them all together with some commentary. I was banned permanently and my writing was deleted, but just after I managed to save it, phew! I didn't like that they banned me and wouldn't mind having websites opened for me to type in and use. I was writing in my own little area they had relegated me to and they still couldn't just let me do my thing!

There have been other persecutor types who have hunted me down on various websites or noticed me and tried to get me removed, one such person calls themselves Samael I think, and got me permanently banned (or banned for a few thousand years or something) from some website I had just joined, so I'm glad you're not following in the footsteps of people who enjoy interfering with my ability to write online and basically bully me wherever I go.

Also, if you look at the sorts of replies even in this thread, I put a lot more care and work into what I write to people, and even pasting from that website over my phone was tedious as the Chrome app kept crashing from too much text in pastebin. I do it all because I genuinely care, whereas other people writing here seem to offer very little. Plus, if they want to learn about Islam, there is probably no one better than me to learn it from, and I even make my email available at [email protected] but if they want very mainstream Islam stuff they might try Youtube or something and type in "Why should I believe in Islam?" or whatever they are looking for and they will find very basic and un-provocative versions of modern Islam, which I doubt would be very fulfilling for them, but it seems to be sufficient for a lot of people!