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Featured Proof of Islam?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Wolf Spirit, May 10, 2020.

  1. Wolf Spirit

    Wolf Spirit Wolf Spirit

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    Hello,

    I am interested in finding out why Muslims believe Islam is the right religion, and discussing these points.
    Alternatively, non-Muslims who have an idea as to why Muslims have this belief.

    There are almost 2 billion Muslims, so there must be a reason they believe, however I have searched many different places and can’t find a reason I can accept.

    Any reasons welcome, but especially if anyone has reasons which are more uncommon, as I have looked at the more common ones already.

    This is coming from a Christian standpoint.

    Thank you.
     
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  2. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Warning: My answer is decidedly harsh.

    I think Islam and Christianity are brilliant when it comes to indoctrination and preying on the weak. They are both a lot like unscrupulous used car salesmen, painting rosy pictures and making promises they cannot keep. Further, they unabashedly borrow the best of humanities morals and ethics and attempt to claim them as their own. And even worse, in addition to co-opting good ideas, they also claim that their horrible ideas (like scapegoating and tribalism), are good ideas.
     
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  3. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    Hi. Most people are Muslims because of the circumstances in which they were born. They are nominally Muslim and raised in an Islamic culture and sometimes don't do much else, but Islam is also pretty simple and easy to follow and is a sort of basic core religion which many people naturally tend to believe in anyway, namely the ideas that "There is a God, a Higher Power, and to do good and be rewarded for doing good by God after death, and to do bad earns punishment by God in Hell".

    Islam was also popular in the past due to how it allowed various classes some more latitude and rights and getting closer to equality in some areaz and respects for poorer people and classes who were given some more potential and dignity by the adoption of and protections under Islam.

    Most theists are at their core basically some form of believers in the basic ideas of Islam, such as God, Judgment and Recompense of Deeds in an Afterlife, Good for Good and Bad for Bad, and that helping those who are in need and innocents is important, beneficial, and virtuous, that Justice is important as well.

    Very few people actually go more technical than that or even know a great deal about Islam, as knowing a great deal about it is not even necessary to practice it.

    You can read the Book of Islam known as the Qur'an at Qur'an

    I have two approaches to Islam which rationalize my beliefs and justify my beliefs or strongly affirm them.

    One is the Approach of Logic, the other is based on the Miraculous, and the third might be an approach from Calculation yo Cover the Most Bases and Avoid the Greatest Potential or Possible Risk mentioned, for example:

    If Buddhists say that therr is reincarnation and are right then that means if I don't follow Buddhism I will get another chance eventually which makes it lower risk and not necessary to follow.

    So by calculating carefully each we can cast our bet on the best and most likely horse to succeed by without severely messing uo the chances with others, sort of like a more advanced and elaborated upon Pascal's Wager I can give more detail on, but for now I'll link you to two things I posted elsewhere:

    Some Logic or Rationale:
    Relic's Blog

    Some Magic or Miracles:
    Relic's Blog
     
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  4. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    I deleted my previous post, it did not feel correct to answer the way i did. I think of a better answer if i get one :)
     
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  5. Wolf Spirit

    Wolf Spirit Wolf Spirit

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    I understand what you are saying, but this has nothing to do with my question.

    I am merely asking, no so much because I *want* to disagree, but because I want to find the right path. Before believing in something, I find out all the facts that I can first, and wish to look at evidence from all places. Including Islam’s point of view. So, in asking this, I’m more giving Islam a chance to explain why I should believe in the Quran. If I find it sufficiently convincing, I will investigate further and change my beliefs.

    I don’t think we should have blind faith in anything, hence my enquiries.
    In addition, I also wanted to ask this out of interest and curiosity, because I enjoy learning about other people’s views.

    This is why I asked that question, but this isn’t what I was intending to discuss at this time. I believe a different topic would be more suited to continue the discussion.
     
  6. Wolf Spirit

    Wolf Spirit Wolf Spirit

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    Oops sorry, I already replied ^-^
     
  7. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    I was lucky to have read it! The position was pretty interesting to me. I took it to be suggesting "religions are different, and may be containing different approaches to similar or identical concepts in some cases, that these are appropriate each to certain types of individuals, and that by following one in particular and keeping apart from the others may be helpful in some way for certain people" or something like that.

    The part I thought was interesting was the idea or suggestion I perceived that certain religious designs are appropriate for certain personalities or cultures which may have different needs, tastes, and requirements for understanding and satisfaction variously.
     
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  8. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    I saw your answer now :) The reason I removed the original answer was that I felt I attacked your view or way of asking your question. And I should not attack like that, especially when I ask others to not attack my self. double morality is not good :)
     
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  9. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    The answer I now have deleted was not directed toward you @DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan :) It was a response to the OP. And since it is removed it means it was words i can not stand by my self, not should others who happened to have read it, Attacking others never solve problems
     
  10. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    It seems that all religions use circular reasoning.....
    "The book says so, it is the word of God so what it says, must be true."
    "The profit said so. he spoke for God, it must be true. "

    Religions give a status to their official texts that no one would confer on any other form of writing.
    The older it is, and the more directly related to the founders or founder, the higher the status.

    Such status takes no account of the fact that all men err, or that we have more factual information to day than they did in the past, but relies on the inferred inerrency of God.
     
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  11. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    I liked it regardless, it presented an interesting idea which I focused on in my own use of it. I never perceived it as an attack on anyone, so that aspect of it did not seem to come through to me, I still have some trouble seeing it as an "attack" on the original poster, was it simply that you were questioning their "end-game" and agenda and wondering why they ar doing what they are doing?

    They afterwards seemed to have answered your question, and they stated that they are asking about Islam because they want to find a spiritual path.

    Contrary to what you had stated in your very interesting suggested idea regarding particular paths for particular people (which you can't stand by and may have never intended to even imply but its the idea I took or made from it), I believe that one such as myself (Fox Spirit) or such as Wolf Spirit does not have to make a choice, and can choose all or most like I do, freely taking from and appropriating and using to their advantage whatever fruits they may wish, just as one performs "eating" but may use a variety of flavors, ingredients, dishes, from around the world and history whenever and however they may feel like it.

    Islam makes for a particularly useful base framework.

    What I often fear though is that the people who call themselves Muslims quite frequently each have their views and often make religion and religious practice a whole lot less fun with their ideas and attempts to control and stifle expression or what one may think ir say or even how one may dress or wear their hair.

    In that sense, that version of Islam is likely unable to deeply satisfy anyone as it is focused heavily on the external and is also baseless and silly, and the Hadiths can be frankly offensive (to me anyway) compared to the Qur'an.

    So, if Islam is adopted in any way by Wolf Spirit, they will have to keep it to themselves and maybe a few like-minded people, because the other Muslims can really be a pain to navigate through due to their understandings.

    If Wolf Spirit has any questions about anything at all ever they can email me at [email protected]

    I consider myself s follower and practitioner of numerous religions but Islam and the Qur'an are my favorite as an underlying framework or used as a more clear cut and easy scripture and rule-book than most or many of the others which it in some ways sufficiently also covers.
     
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  12. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Are you looking for a different religion than the one you currently hold?
     
  13. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    The vast majority of people who adopt a religion do so because they're comfortable with it. Maybe they were raised in that religion, maybe they like the doctrine or rituals or maybe to fit in where they live. People then use their minds to find reasons why their religion is true.

    I quite like this quote:

    “Aren’t all religions equally true? No, all religions are equally false. The relationship of religion to truth is like that of a menu to a meal. The menu describes the meal as best it can. It points to something beyond itself. As long as we use the menu as a guide we do it honor. When we mistake the menu for the meal, we do it and ourselves a grave injustice.” Rabbi Rami Shapiro
     
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  14. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    Thank you for seeing the good in the messages I thought was to badly written :) As I said in a different OP and thread, I am my self my hardest critique :) And Sometimes i may say something I feel is not good.

    But yes i do find it important to more look at our own religion/cultivation path and how we are behaving our self before we make a hard critique of others as a person or their religion.
     
  15. The_Fisher_King

    The_Fisher_King Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
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    I suspect there isn't just one reason why we Muslims believe as we do, there being as you say so many of us. But being born into the faith and the community element, both in its positive aspects (a sense of belonging, being part of something greater than oneself alone, the community rituals and festivals) and its negative aspects (particularly if one already belongs to a community, the difficulty of going against community rules with all the negative repercussions for continuing to belong to that community, the difficulty of going it alone, not to mention in some parts of the world not only significant social sanction but also the very real possibility of harm to oneself or one's loved ones) are likely to be significant reasons.

    Personally, for starters, I like the simplicity of the message 'intellectually' - believe in and worship One God Alone, His Messengers sent to every corner of the world with the same essential message, an Afterlife, do good deeds in this life and you shall have your reward, do bad deeds and you shall be punished - and then the sense of peace and coming closer to God that I get from praying (in the Muslim way) and from fasting too.

    Out of interest, what reasons have you come across?
     
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  16. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    If you haven't found it yet, you may never. You're probably going to have to ditch the "I" part of that because facts do not cater to egos.
     
  17. Wolf Spirit

    Wolf Spirit Wolf Spirit

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    Ah yes, this does explain why most are Muslim. Probably why when I ask Muslim friends, they don’t really have a reason.

    Thanks, these are some more robust reasons ^-^

    I was discussing the logic approach with someone else. So this is basically, Islam is the most logical to believe in? Correct me if I’m wrong please.
    Anyhow, they couldn’t explain why Islam was more logical than all the other religions out there, and why a non-religious person would believe in Islam over the apparently more logical idea of evolution.
    (I tried to read the link, but my browser was formatting it strangely, as I’m on mobile. I’ll try again later.)

    Then the miracles. I would say, miracles in Muhammad’s time, how can they be proven? The same issue with miracles today.
    In addition, you could say that the bible has just as many miracles, and today people’s prayers being answered, etc...

    And the final one...
    Yes. I’d agree, that you might as well believe in something and give yourself a chance. I’d say Islam is pretty high risk, with all their detailed descriptions of Hell.
    However, this doesn’t give you a belief. I don’t believe you can practise a religion properly without believing, nor can you be saved in the end without solid belief. Otherwise, you are just an imposter.
    I wouldn’t say this proves Islam at all, simply gives you incentive to look into Islam and see whether it is correct. However, if it can be completely ruled out, then you might as well believe another one. Alternatively, if you find firm evidence for another religion, then Islam cannot be true.
     
  18. Wolf Spirit

    Wolf Spirit Wolf Spirit

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    It does seem to be, from personal experience, that most Muslims are in Islam for reasons you mentioned, rather than possessing facts. Which is entirely acceptable, if that makes your quality of life better. It certainly makes other people’s lives better, if they are a good Muslim, since quite a lot of the commands ensure they are good people, if followed strictly. Personally though I would rather believe with evidence.
    [/quote]

    The one every Muslim seems to pull out is the challenge that Muhammad used to prove the Quran. That you should try to come up with a passage as good as a passage in the Quran.
    However, I’d say that the passages in many religions are just as good, in my opinion better, than the Quran. There is no denying it’s brilliance, however, there are many Chinese Proverbs with no claim to divinity which I believe are just as amazing, or better.

    If anyone would like to explain this further, feel free.
     
  19. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    It is a Kent Hovind Challenge.
     
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  20. Wolf Spirit

    Wolf Spirit Wolf Spirit

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    Firstly, this doesn’t answer my question at all.

    Also, in my humble opinion, it appears that you are the one with an ego, because you view yourself as superior.

    In addition, if I were to ‘ditch the ‘I’’, the sentence wouldn’t make sense ; )

    I am genuinely looking for facts as to why I should believe in the Quran. I don’t understand what is wrong with this. In fact, I thought this should be encouraged, for don’t Muslims want others to find Allah?

    Unfortunately, I know many demand blind faith, and my quest to believe based on facts and evidence would bother them. I know you are not one of those due to the value you place on facts. In that case, you should appreciate my question more than most, but this doesn’t seem to be the case.

    I would much appreciate it if you could provide me with all these facts which you posses. Maybe then I can come to know Allah, and He can help me quell my monstrous ego.
     
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