Magic and religion. What do we know?

[firedragon]

With parking problems in certain areas I take taxis for certain things. Today I happened to ride a taxi with a muslim driver and the paying app on his meter didnt work on the first try. Then he said he forgot to say Bismillah and recited a prayer and pressed the button and voila, it worked. He believes its his prayer. I mean he really believes his prayer works.

Out of curiosity I asked a Hindu guy to do the same and it worked for him. It happened to a Christian guy as well. So everyone's prayers are working no matter who you worship, God, Jesus or a Hindu God.

The problem in this is that when ever I take the taxi the paying app works the second time. Mostly. Very rarely it works the first time. So if one person is to make a prayer before pressing the button, he would do it the second time since the first time failed. And in my experience it always works the second time. Thus, my opinion is that this is a confirmation bias. But that's my opinion.

Lets say the men's prayers do work, then does it work with all Gods? If it works with God, or rather the Islamic concept of God, then Jesus is not God in the theology, thus how could it work for someone who prays for Jesus? Same with the Hindu.

Do people have a natural love for magic and a love to think of themselves as magical? Is that why they are looking for ways to confirm that magic exists? Magic through either prayer or some other waving of the wand.

Or, is this all just bogus?

 

[ReluctantMathematician]

Association does not imply causation.

It really just sounds like people are not giving the app enough time to wake up and reconnect to the network.

 

[Nakosis]

With parking problems in certain areas I take taxis for certain things. Today I happened to ride a taxi with a muslim driver and the paying app on his meter didnt work on the first try. Then he said he forgot to say Bismillah and recited a prayer and pressed the button and voila, it worked. He believes its his prayer. I mean he really believes his prayer works.

Out of curiosity I asked a Hindu guy to do the same and it worked for him. It happened to a Christian guy as well. So everyone's prayers are working no matter who you worship, God, Jesus or a Hindu God.

The problem in this is that when ever I take the taxi the paying app works the second time. Mostly. Very rarely it works the first time. So if one person is to make a prayer before pressing the button, he would do it the second time since the first time failed. And in my experience it always works the second time. Thus, my opinion is that this is a confirmation bias. But that's my opinion.

Lets say the men's prayers do work, then does it work with all Gods? If it works with God, or rather the Islamic concept of God, then Jesus is not God in the theology, thus how could it work for someone who prays for Jesus? Same with the Hindu.

Do people have a natural love for magic and a love to think of themselves as magical? Is that why they are looking for ways to confirm that magic exists? Magic through either prayer or some other waving of the wand.

Or, is this all just bogus?

Psychology research shows most people wrongly assume their thoughts can become reality — even people who say they don't believe in telekinesis or ESP. "If you think about something and then it happens, you feel a little bit responsible for it," Hutson said. It's an irrational feeling. Why do we feel it?

"It's a byproduct of how we understand causality," he said. "If there are two events, A and B, if A happens before B, if there are no other obvious causes of B, and if A and B are conceptually related, then we assume A caused B."

Consider kicking a soccer ball: if you move your leg just before the ball goes flying, you naturally assume that your leg caused the ball's motion. We apply the same logical steps even if event A is merely a thought. "If you think about something before it happens and your thought is somehow related to the event, then you might consider your thought as a possible influence on the event," Hutson said.

The faulty logic gets reinforced every time you think a positive thought, such as visualizing a successful basketball free throw, and then the thought boosts your confidence, which affects your behavior, and — voila! — the ball swooshes through the net.
Why Everyone Believes in Magic (Even You) | Live Science

 

[Quintessence]

If you really want to study this, there's an entire subsection of anthropology out there for you. I've read a fair bit of that literature as part of my Pagan studies, and it's a bit complicated to distill down into a few bullet points (plus there are some author biases to wade through, especially with earlier works when anthropology was plagued with ethnocentrism). I can try, though, if there's interest.

 

[George-ananda]

I believe in prayer and magic and that it is not associated with any one religion but I wonder how serious that Muslim taxi driver really was in thinking Bismillah affected his meter?

 

[The Hammer]

If you really want to study this, there's an entire subsection of anthropology out there for you. I've read a fair bit of that literature as part of my Pagan studies, and it's a bit complicated to distill down into a few bullet points (plus there are some author biases to wade through, especially with earlier works when anthropology was plagued with ethnocentrism). I can try, though, if there's interest.

I always find this fascinating. Got a few good book recommendations?

 

[firedragon]

Psychology research shows most people wrongly assume their thoughts can become reality — even people who say they don't believe in telekinesis or ESP. "If you think about something and then it happens, you feel a little bit responsible for it," Hutson said. It's an irrational feeling. Why do we feel it?

"It's a byproduct of how we understand causality," he said. "If there are two events, A and B, if A happens before B, if there are no other obvious causes of B, and if A and B are conceptually related, then we assume A caused B."

Consider kicking a soccer ball: if you move your leg just before the ball goes flying, you naturally assume that your leg caused the ball's motion. We apply the same logical steps even if event A is merely a thought. "If you think about something before it happens and your thought is somehow related to the event, then you might consider your thought as a possible influence on the event," Hutson said.

The faulty logic gets reinforced every time you think a positive thought, such as visualizing a successful basketball free throw, and then the thought boosts your confidence, which affects your behavior, and — voila! — the ball swooshes through the net.
Why Everyone Believes in Magic (Even You) | Live Science

Interesting.

 

[firedragon]

If you really want to study this, there's an entire subsection of anthropology out there for you. I've read a fair bit of that literature as part of my Pagan studies, and it's a bit complicated to distill down into a few bullet points (plus there are some author biases to wade through, especially with earlier works when anthropology was plagued with ethnocentrism). I can try, though, if there's interest.

Why not try!! And do please recommend a book. The best there is.

 

[QuestioningMind]

With parking problems in certain areas I take taxis for certain things. Today I happened to ride a taxi with a muslim driver and the paying app on his meter didnt work on the first try. Then he said he forgot to say Bismillah and recited a prayer and pressed the button and voila, it worked. He believes its his prayer. I mean he really believes his prayer works.

Out of curiosity I asked a Hindu guy to do the same and it worked for him. It happened to a Christian guy as well. So everyone's prayers are working no matter who you worship, God, Jesus or a Hindu God.

The problem in this is that when ever I take the taxi the paying app works the second time. Mostly. Very rarely it works the first time. So if one person is to make a prayer before pressing the button, he would do it the second time since the first time failed. And in my experience it always works the second time. Thus, my opinion is that this is a confirmation bias. But that's my opinion.

Lets say the men's prayers do work, then does it work with all Gods? If it works with God, or rather the Islamic concept of God, then Jesus is not God in the theology, thus how could it work for someone who prays for Jesus? Same with the Hindu.

Do people have a natural love for magic and a love to think of themselves as magical? Is that why they are looking for ways to confirm that magic exists? Magic through either prayer or some other waving of the wand.

Or, is this all just bogus?

People have a love for explanations... even if they're wrong. We don't know why the app didn't work the first time and we don't know why it happened to work the second time. Unfortunately some people don't like to not know and it lessens their anxiety if they can claim that they do know.

 

[Fool]

to enrapture is to create magic


so it would be the scientist, the learned, the knowledgable who would be able to manipulate the natural forces in a way that would seem magical.



magic (n.)
late 14c., magike, "art of influencing or predicting events and producing marvels using hidden natural forces," also "supernatural art," especially the art of controlling the actions of spiritual or superhuman beings; from Old French magique "magic; magical," from Late Latin magice "sorcery, magic," from Greek magike (presumably with tekhnē "art"), fem. of magikos "magical," from magos "one of the members of the learned and priestly class," from Old Persian magush, which is possibly from PIE root *magh- "to be able, have power."

The transferred sense of "legerdemain, optical illusion, etc." is from 1811. It displaced Old English wiccecræft (see witch); also drycræft, from dry "magician," from Irish drui "priest, magician" (see Druid). Natural magic in the Middle Ages was that which did not involve the agency of personal spirits; it was considered more or less legitimate, not sinful, and involved much that would be explained scientifically as the manipulation of natural forces.

 

[firedragon]

People have a love for explanations... even if they're wrong. We don't know why the app didn't work the first time and we don't know why it happened to work the second time. Unfortunately some people don't like to not know and it lessens their anxiety if they can claim that they do know.

Oh I know why the app didnt work the first time. Its because of network traffic, and it practically never works the first time and it almost always works the second time. So that's why I said for them to believe their prayer worked it was confirmation bias.

 

[Quintessence]

I always find this fascinating. Got a few good book recommendations?

Why not try!! And do please recommend a book. The best there is.

There are a few in particular that I found really interesting - though it has been some years since I last read them.

In general Susan Greenwood (Susan Greenwood – Anthropologist, Shamanic Practitioner, and Lecturer) is a very good author to read for a more contemporary perspective on the anthropology of magic. She has a solid academic background, but also is more... shall we say... open minded and sympathetic to contemporary practice of magic and what it means for the communities that engage in it. You can usually find at least one of her works at a decent public university library (that's where I read them).

Another very good and more contemporary take on magic comes from Ariel Glucklich's "The End of Magic" (www.goodreads.com/book/show/2917050-the-end-of-magic). I recall it having a good grounding in both the scholarship of anthropology and religion without being condescending or alienating to traditions who do practice magic.

Those are probably my top picks, but I also got some interesting gems from "Stolen Lightning: The Social Theory of Magic" by D.L. O'Keefe (www.goodreads.com/book/show/3203321-stolen-lightning). They write in a far less... sympathetic and mindful tone to contemporary practitioners, but I think a lot of their ideas were very interesting nevertheless. Then there's of course the early works that studied the relationship between magic and religion - stuff like Tylor, Frasier, and all that, but those are seriously dated in tone and approach.

 

[Quintessence]

So the intersection between magic and religion is really complicated. It's made really complicated in part because it is difficult to define religion and also not exactly easy to define magic either. Add to that the fact that at various points in human history, certain religions have tried to distance themselves from or condemn magic in spite of it being fundamental to the practice of religion (however it is defined) since its inception. It's weirdly funny, in a way.

Thinking in broad strokes, though, magic generally serves a role of empowering individuals to make change. It is something everyday people could engage in to gain some semblance of control in their lives. Sometimes, ritual magic is sanctioned by society and acts as a sort of social/collective action (this is something O'Keefe brought up IIRC). Other times, ritual magic goes against society and is an act of rebellion versus the status quo. Even if magic doesn't "exist" per se the role the practice plays as a social function still holds importance.

 

[MNoBody]

Lets say the men's prayers do work, then does it work with all Gods? If it works with God, or rather the Islamic concept of God, then Jesus is not God in the theology, thus how could it work for someone who prays for Jesus? Same with the Hindu.

Do people have a natural love for magic and a love to think of themselves as magical? Is that why they are looking for ways to confirm that magic exists? Magic through either prayer or some other waving of the wand.

Or, is this all just bogus?

the unexplainable will always elicit conjecture, which drives innovation and is behind every discovery that gave men an advantage in life.
we term things unexplained but experienced or known as magic or just as unknowns [for the more practical minded] and seek for answers.
recently, after thousands of years of puzzling over this mystery of "prayer" the physics guys have found that the observer has an influence on an object or event, and disputes are many as to why [and as to its other implications].
curious development in any case.

[Not participating in this thread as a debater, just making some observations that seem notable.]

 

[danieldemol]

With parking problems in certain areas I take taxis for certain things. Today I happened to ride a taxi with a muslim driver and the paying app on his meter didnt work on the first try. Then he said he forgot to say Bismillah and recited a prayer and pressed the button and voila, it worked. He believes its his prayer. I mean he really believes his prayer works.

Out of curiosity I asked a Hindu guy to do the same and it worked for him. It happened to a Christian guy as well. So everyone's prayers are working no matter who you worship, God, Jesus or a Hindu God.

The problem in this is that when ever I take the taxi the paying app works the second time. Mostly. Very rarely it works the first time. So if one person is to make a prayer before pressing the button, he would do it the second time since the first time failed. And in my experience it always works the second time. Thus, my opinion is that this is a confirmation bias. But that's my opinion.

Lets say the men's prayers do work, then does it work with all Gods? If it works with God, or rather the Islamic concept of God, then Jesus is not God in the theology, thus how could it work for someone who prays for Jesus? Same with the Hindu.

Do people have a natural love for magic and a love to think of themselves as magical? Is that why they are looking for ways to confirm that magic exists? Magic through either prayer or some other waving of the wand.

Or, is this all just bogus?

Not sure if this is relevant, but throwing it out there anyway.

To me prayer is illogical on a number of levels, however I find it comforting so I do it anyway.

When confronted with a problem I do what I can then kind of hand the problem over to God for what I'm unable to solve and it gives me comfort to do that. Allowing me to move on to other problems I can solve.

But I think at least some humans are irrational, for example wishing someone to have a nice day seems like not a rational thing to do because your wishes won't stop them getting splashed by mud from a passing car, or stepping in poo shortly before walking into an interview etc yet many people are well-wishers.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

With parking problems in certain areas I take taxis for certain things. Today I happened to ride a taxi with a muslim driver and the paying app on his meter didnt work on the first try. Then he said he forgot to say Bismillah and recited a prayer and pressed the button and voila, it worked. He believes its his prayer. I mean he really believes his prayer works.

Out of curiosity I asked a Hindu guy to do the same and it worked for him. It happened to a Christian guy as well. So everyone's prayers are working no matter who you worship, God, Jesus or a Hindu God.

The problem in this is that when ever I take the taxi the paying app works the second time. Mostly. Very rarely it works the first time. So if one person is to make a prayer before pressing the button, he would do it the second time since the first time failed. And in my experience it always works the second time. Thus, my opinion is that this is a confirmation bias. But that's my opinion.

Lets say the men's prayers do work, then does it work with all Gods? If it works with God, or rather the Islamic concept of God, then Jesus is not God in the theology, thus how could it work for someone who prays for Jesus? Same with the Hindu.

Do people have a natural love for magic and a love to think of themselves as magical? Is that why they are looking for ways to confirm that magic exists? Magic through either prayer or some other waving of the wand.

Or, is this all just bogus?

Sounds to me like you should pray that the app DOESN'T work -- you can save yourself a bunch of money on taxi trips.

 

[1213]

Psychology research shows most people wrongly assume their thoughts can become reality ...

I think saddest case of that is political prisoners that are in jail because rulers are afraid that thoughts can become reality.

 

[Deeje]

Lets say the men's prayers do work, then does it work with all Gods? If it works with God, or rather the Islamic concept of God, then Jesus is not God in the theology, thus how could it work for someone who prays for Jesus? Same with the Hindu.

Good question.....but it makes you wonder if God (whomever you perceive him to be) has nothing better to do than demand a prayer before a taxi meter works.....?

Do people have a natural love for magic and a love to think of themselves as magical? Is that why they are looking for ways to confirm that magic exists? Magic through either prayer or some other waving of the wand.

People have always had a fascination with the supernatural. IMV, the Bible separates what God does (a miracle) and what the devil does (magic) as an inferior imitation to cause confusion. If people can’t tell the difference, then he’s got ‘em. So this is where knowledge and obedience come to the fore IMO.

God gave his people a dire warning concerning any form of spiritism on their entry into the Promised Land. Deuteronomy 18:9-12 includes everything to do with the supernatural.....

“When you have entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the detestable practices of those nations. 10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer, 11 anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium or a fortune-teller, or anyone who inquires of the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you.”

So if these things are “detestable” to God, then all who practice such things are alienated from him, and serving the interests of his arch enemy.

No divination...no magic....no omens....fortune tellers....or inquiring of the dead.....

....or magic taxi meters.

Or, is this all just bogus?

Since the Bible indicates that God stopped using miraculous, supernatural intervention after the apostolic period, (close of the first century) then all such proclaimed intervention (miracles) today will come from the pretend “god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) who plays on the human fascination for “divine intervention” and it’s leading them down a path to nowhere. (Matthew 7:13-14)

God purposely took the supernatural elements away so that there would be no confusion in the future among those who know what his word teaches.

1 Corinthians 13 is interesting as it contrasts the gifts of the Holy Spirit manifest among Jesus’ early disciples, with the motives behind their use....

“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a clanging gong or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and understand all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I do not benefit at all.”

So the manifestation of some supernatural element (regardless of how big or small) had to have God’s backing as an act of love, not just as a display of power....giving attention to the one displaying it.

Paul likened the need to see “miracles” as the trait of a spiritual infant.....
“When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child.”

We don’t need miracles anymore. Mature Christians have knowledge of God’s word and his purpose, and with the backing of his spirit, they carry out their assignment without the need for seeing ‘magic’. (Matthew 28:19-20)

IMV, learning the difference between a miracle and magic is vital.
Whose power is employed?.....that is the important question. Whose agenda is served?

 

[MNoBody]

it has been assumed that somehow magic and religion are separate genres, yet ritualistic action and manipulation of objects in public or private, are indistinguishable from religious practice in general.....thus it is the same genre, and not somehow separable.....the only difference would then be the bias of practitioners who would say they do good magic whilst the others do bad magic..... which may be the case, but it would still be the same category of work and intentions/assumptions.

 

[firedragon]

Sounds to me like you should pray that the app DOESN'T work -- you can save yourself a bunch of money on taxi trips.

Instead I will pray for validity.