Magic and religion. What do we know?

[firedragon]

it has been assumed that somehow magic and religion are separate genres, yet ritualistic action and manipulation of objects in public or private, are indistinguishable from religious practice in general.....thus it is the same genre, and not somehow separable.....the only difference would then be the bias of practitioners who would say they do good magic whilst the others do bad magic..... which may be the case, but it would still be the same category of work and intentions/assumptions.

Who assumed?

 

[MNoBody]

Who assumed?

people....

 

[Hockeycowboy]

the only difference would then be the bias of practitioners who would say they do good magic whilst the others do bad magic..... which may be the case, but it would still be the same category of work and intentions/assumptions.

If you don’t mind, let me give you a scenario, ok?

This is true, actually....I knew a person who practiced magic, was a fortune teller, and a medium. Some things she did, was uncanny ... amazing. Claimed her powers were from God. But she had very loose morals...slept with different men frequently.

Now, would God use someone who practiced sexual immorality, constantly breaking His law?
No way!
That raises a question: from what source were her powers?

Reminds me of Jesus’ words at Matthew 7:21-23. Jesus said these men were calling him “Lord,” claiming to do “powerful works,” even “expelling demons in Your [Jesus’] name.” But Jesus denied even knowing them, calling them “workers of iniquity.” Where did they get their power?

That’s one way you can discern. Looking at peoples’ actions and behaviors. It stands to reason, if they’re not obedient to God, then they don’t have His backing.


Take care.

 

[MNoBody]

If you don’t mind, let me give you a scenario, ok?

This is true, actually....I knew a person who practiced magic, was a fortune teller, and a medium. Some things she did, was uncanny ... amazing. Claimed her powers were from God. But she had very loose morals...slept with different men frequently.

Now, would God use someone who practiced sexual immorality, constantly breaking His law?
No way!
That raises a question: from what source were her powers?

Reminds me of Jesus’ words at Matthew 7:21-23. Jesus said these men were calling him “Lord,” claiming to do “powerful works,” even “expelling demons in Your [Jesus’] name.” But Jesus denied even knowing them, calling them “workers of iniquity.” Where did they get their power?

That’s one way you can discern.


Take care.

the point of the former post, was more simply put that,
religious people are just as actively practitioners of "magic" as are the pagans
whom these constantly shame for being some kind of simpletons or evil workers of iniquity
allegedly in league with deevils and such.....
which is a non-partisan observation.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@MNoBody , sorry, I guess I misunderstood.

 

[firedragon]

people....

OK I get it.

 

[Deeje]

the point of the former post, was more simply put that,
religious people are just as actively practitioners of "magic" as are the pagans
whom these constantly shame for being some kind of simpletons or evil workers of iniquity
allegedly in league with deevils and such.....
which is a non-partisan observation.

If you take a modern day look at things you will find quite a difference between the first century miracles and the so called miracles of today.

If its the same "spirit" that produces the "magic" then something is horribly wrong. There were no failures in the first century. But many of the claimed miracles of modern times are not quite 100% effective, in fact many of them are failures.

Many claimed "cures" can be put down to the Placebo Effect, something science cannot explain.....and others seem to last only a short time and the ones who were 'cured' are back to square one.

So what is this "magic" ? God forbids magic...so how does that work? How can his worshippers practice something he calls "detestable"? Where is the power coming from do you think? There is no doubt that it exists.

 

[stvdv]

Is that why they are looking for ways to confirm that magic exists? Magic through either prayer or some other waving of the wand.

You started the OP, so obviously you are one of those people

Or, is this all just bogus?

I know

 

[firedragon]

You started the OP, so obviously you are one of those people

Then you have not read the OP fully.

 

[danieldemol]

Paul likened the need to see “miracles” as the trait of a spiritual infant.....
“When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child.”

We don’t need miracles anymore.

So no need for Jesus to resurrect the dead or wave his magic wand so the lion will lay down with the lamb etc etc.

If you say so...

 

[TransmutingSoul]

To work miracles with our heart,
from God do not depart!

Mostly though....

We seek the comfortable lair,
blinded that it is our snare!

So...

Is it a miracle or just plain magic,
when we have a change of heart?

Regards Tony

 

[Deeje]

So no need for Jesus to resurrect the dead or wave his magic wand so the lion will lay down with the lamb etc etc.

If you say so...

The Bible says so. Have you no faith in the Bible?

Do you always assume to interpret what others say in such a twisted fashion?

Resurrecting the dead is what Jesus did in the first century.....is anyone doing that today? The apostles did it too.
The power of holy spirit created the Universe, so why is resurrection a big deal?

Where is the magic wand...I don't believe Jesus ever mentioned one.

And if God's creation was perfect in the beginning, then no animals would have harmed others....so that the lion and the lamb will revert back to what was God's original purpose for creation.

Isaiah is a prophesy about the future of life on earth.....it is literal in my view.

Isaiah 11:6-9....
"The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb,
And with the young goat the leopard will lie down,
And the calf and the lion and the fattened animal will all be together;
And a little boy will lead them.

7 The cow and the bear will feed together,
And their young will lie down together.

The lion will eat straw like the bull.

8 The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra,
And a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake.

9 They will not cause any harm
Or any ruin in all my holy mountain,
Because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah
As the waters cover the sea."

There will be perfect harmony between man and the animals over whom he was given dominion....every living creature was originally a plant eater.....vegetarian......some of the strongest animals alive today are still herbivores......this is what I look forward to....a restoration of what we lost in Eden.....God always finishes what he starts. (Isaiah 55:11)

 

[danieldemol]

The Bible says so. Have you no faith in the Bible?

No i have no faith in the Bible

Do you always assume to interpret what others say in such a twisted fashion?

You were the one who said we don't need miracles today, that your saying contradicts your other beliefs is a product of your own thoughtlessness, I didn't twist anything

 

[Deeje]

No i have no faith in the Bible

That is your prerogative.....you can believe whatever you wish., though I am still wondering what a Baha'i inspired liberal is....?
Is that dancing around the fringes of Baha'i or is it something else? What do you actually believe about the Baha'i faith as opposed to what you disagree with......?
.....I would really like to understand the venom in your replies TBH.

You were the one who said we don't need miracles today, that your saying contradicts your other beliefs is a product of your own thoughtlessness, I didn't twist anything

No, we do not need miracles in this world at this time.....God has held back his spirit in that regard because of all the tom foolery that masquerades as religion these days. If they all did 'tricks' and God did his own miracles, who in amongst it all could tell the difference? Most people are ignorant of what the Bible teaches, which is a shame because it takes us from creation, to a thousand years into the future.....what do you have that is better than that?

I know what I believe and why I believe it.....I didn't always. That was God's gift to me......its not just what I believe...its what I know.

 

[stvdv]

Paul likened the need to see “miracles” as the trait of a spiritual infant.....
“When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child.”

IF someone has never personally experienced divine miracles
THEN the words "I have done away with miracles" mean nothing

This proves that Divine miracles are essential

 

[danieldemol]

Is that dancing around the fringes of Baha'i or is it something else?

Something else

What do you actually believe about the Baha'i faith as opposed to what you disagree with......?

I like some of the basic principles such as the belief in one God, the one-ness of humanity, equality of the sexes, but don't believe Baha'llah is any more a manifestation of God than what you and I are.

.....I would really like to understand the venom in your replies TBH.

Projecting now are we?

 

[stvdv]

You started the OP, so obviously you are one of those people

Then you have not read the OP fully.

magic-and-religion-what-do-we-know?
You ask this question, hence you are one of those people "who do not know yet" AND want to know

 

[Deeje]

IF someone has never personally experienced divine miracles
THEN the words "I have done away with miracles" mean nothing

This proves that Divine miracles are essential

Since we are living in a world that is ruled by a master deceiver (1 John 5:19) .....it begs the question then....are today's miracles really "divine" or a cheap imitation designed to make uninformed people believe a lie?

Children love to see tricks.....but mature people don't need them....that was Paul's message in 1 Corinthians 13:11

He went on to tell us what were the more important qualities produced by God's spirit...
"Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love"

Satan can mimic a lot of things but these three he cannot produce in his worshippers.....only God can do that.
"lack of faith, hopelessness and hatred"...these are the traits taht saturate the world's religions today......people have forgotten how to love.

 

[firedragon]

magic-and-religion-what-do-we-know?
You ask this question, hence you are one of those people "who do not know yet" AND want to know

You have not understood what you are responding to.

Anyway, whats your response? Are you looking for hypocrisy in the post? Are you trying to look for flaws of character in the poster?

 

[stvdv]

IF someone has never personally experienced divine miracles
THEN the words "I have done away with miracles" mean nothing

This proves that Divine miracles are essential

Children love to see tricks.....but mature people don't need them....that was Paul's message in 1 Corinthians 13:11

He went on to tell us what were the more important qualities produced by God's spirit...
"Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love"

Satan can mimic a lot of things but these three he cannot produce in his worshippers.....only God can do that.
"lack of faith, hopelessness and hatred"...these are the traits taht saturate the world's religions today......people have forgotten how to love.

True.

But IF one can't distinguish between a real and fake miracles THEN one has not passed the "Childhood stage" yet; hence narrow path