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Featured Is Yahweh A Liar? Yes, He Is. I Can Prove It.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by SeekingAllTruth, Mar 9, 2021.

  1. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    But these are natural occurrences. Yahweh is pronouncing a pretty definitive judgment: the Nile will dry up--the land will be desolate. That's a permanent condition until Yahweh says otherwise.
     
  2. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Why should I believe you? I don’t believe you have been watching it all the time.
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Just because it does not qualify for you that does not mean it does not qualify for God. Why would I dig deeper? I already told you what to read if you want to know how Baha’u’llah fulfilled the prophecies, Thief in the Night by William Sears. No interpretations I come up with are going to be as good as his since he was raised as a Christian and he researched these prophecies for seven years as he was writing the book and even went to the holy land to verify the places that the prophecies refer to.

    How To Make a Believable Prophecy? Prophecies were not written with the intention of being believable in order to convince people who would be the return of Christ and the Messiah, and that is who you and other people do not understand. People want to dictate to God how He should operate but it is rather the other way around. Nobody tells an omnipotent God what to do, that is logic 101. Many prophecies are difficult to decipher because God tests His servants in order to separate the sheep from the goats, as Jesus said. Other prophecies are as clear as the noonday sun in Arizona, yet they are still contested because that is what people do when they think they know it all and they are so sure of themselves. Before they even study the prophecies and exactly how they were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah they jump to the conclusion that they were not fulfilled by Baha’u’llah. That is called the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions and it involves making decisions without having enough information to be sure they are right, this can give rise to bad or rash decisions

    Do you really think God cares if you believe in Him or His Messenger for this age? Think again. God does not need anyone’s belief and neither does Baha’u’llah, but Baha’u’llah made it perfectly clear what the consequences are for those who reject God’s religion for this age, and this is a choice once people know about that religion.

    “We perceive none, however, amongst the people of the earth who, sincerely yearning for the Truth, seeketh the guidance of the divine Manifestations concerning the abstruse matters of his Faith. All are dwellers in the land of oblivion, and all are followers of the people of wickedness and rebellion. God will verily do unto them that which they themselves are doing, and will forget them even as they have ignored His Presence in His day. Such is His decree unto those that have denied Him, and such will it be unto them that have rejected His signs.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp.256-257
    Correction: He did not meet your requirements, but that does not mean He did not meet God’s requirements regarding what He was trying to achieve.
    I do not have to contort anything since I know that Baha’u’llah fulfilled all those prophecies since Sears carefully researched the prophecies coupled with Baha’i history and explained exactly how they were fulfilled in his book. One cannot fake history and geography.
    One does not look only at His person since that is not how people do research. They have to look at all the evidence, not just one piece, just like an investigator would investigate a crime. That is why Baha’u’llah told us to look at three things: “Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 105

    His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

    His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
    That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

    God Passes By (1844-1944)
    The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

    The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

    The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake.

    The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that He could see into the future, so He had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah.
    I never said that they are irrelevant; I only said that Baha’u’llah did not enjoin us to look to prophecies in order to determine the truth of His claims. The prophecies are just something I am interested in, not something I need for proof.
     
  4. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    Yes nearly everything we have in ancient history are “just claims” from some author (s)






    whats wrong with the evidence for the burrial of Jesus?


    We know that there where exceptions, sometimes crucified bodies were buried. (we have foiund the bodies)

    1 Jesus was crucified in Jews territory (perceiving the body is important for jews)

    2 he was crucified during e period of piece

    3 Jesus didn’t do anything wrong from the point of view of the Romans

    4 A rich and influential man (Joseph of Arimathea) asked for the body

    These 4 points make Jesus a likely candidate for being an exception and being buried
     
    #84 leroy, Mar 10, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2021
  5. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    OK, but let's put what Christians do or do not aside. The Bible claims that it's prophecies are often symbolic. For example, when a man had a dream of seven fat cows, the Book says, this seven cows are symbols of seven years of prosperity, or when the prophets had dream or visions of a beast with several heads and crowns, the Book says, these are symbols of kings and kingdoms. So, this idea that some prophecies are symbolic, is Biblical. But if you do not believe the Bible is inspired word of God, then, it is understandable that you also do not believe or agree that it is possible to prophecy about future.
     
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  6. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    What evidence? :confused:
     
  7. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    The only so called evidence comes from one very weak source and that goes against what is the normal case in history. Look into the history of Roman crucifixion. Or I could provide you a link if you prefer. You want to make a claim of an extraordinary event. You need something much stronger than a book of myths to support that claim.
     
  8. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    The position of fundamentalists is that the Bible cannot make a mistake in prophecy. If even one prophecy is wrong then the Bible is proven to not be the word of God. In fact, there are dozens of bad prophecies. Here's just a small partial list:

    Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre

    Egypt would be a barren wasteland

    Nebuchadnezzar would conquer Egypt

    The Nile River would dry up

    Judah Would Triumph

    Damascus would be destroyed

    Egyptians will speak the language of Canaan

    Egypt and Assyria would convert to the Hebrew religion

    Israel will extend from the Red Sea to the Euphrates

    Davidic line will endure forever


     
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  9. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    The evidence presented in the source that I quoted
     
  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    The Bible is the claim, it is not the evidence.
     
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  11. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    If you're talking about the Lane Craig thing that a lie. There aren't "multiple independent attestations of the burial of Christ". Secular historians don't know of a single one because nothing about Jesus' burial outside of the NT was written in the 1st century far as we know. I'd love to hear some if you don't mind quoting them.
     
  12. Left Coast

    Left Coast Circular File Complaint Analyst
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    And of course, just because they qualify to you doesn't mean they qualify to God, either. That's the thing, Trail. God isn't here to settle the dispute. We're two humans with opinions, and that's it. So the "but God said so" trump card doesn't cut it. We have no clue what God says or thinks about anything. All we have are human beings claiming they know what God says and thinks.

    As Shania would say: "That don't impress me much, ooo ooo oooooo..."

    Do you know how many apologists have traveled around the world and "done research" and written books proclaiming their religion is The True One? I have a shelf full. I don't care what some apologist said. I care what convinces you that any of this stuff is true, which is why I'm in a conversation with you.

    Great, then let's end the discussion there. If the prophecies aren't meant to be believable, then who cares? And why would anyone believe them? They're just empty words on a page.

    No one is telling any god what to do here. No god is here, that I can tell. If she'd like to speak up, she's welcome. For now it's just you and me, sharing our thoughts.

    You just said the prophecies aren't meant to be believable or convincing, so I'm not sure why we're still talking about them, or why you'd be surprised or upset that anyone doesn't believe stuff that's not meant to be believable.

    LOL so God "doesn't care" if I believe in him, but plans to punish me for not believing in him? :rolleyes: Cmon Trail. You must see what blatant doublespeak that is.

    Correction of the correction: we have no clue what God's requirements are. She isn't around to tell us. What we have are humans who claim to know what God's requirements are.

    What about "his own self" demonstrates he was a Messenger of God, and how do you know?

    What did he accomplish, and how does that demonstrate he's a Messenger of God?

    What about his words demonstrates he's a Messenger of God, and how did you determine that?

    But he didn't, though. :shrug:

    What's the best one?

    If the prophecies are not needed to determine the truth of Bahaullah's claims, and they're not meant to be believable anyway, this probably isn't the thread to discuss Bahaullah or the prophecies he supposedly fulfilled.
     
  13. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but those were dreams that were meant to be interpreted. The prophecies found in the OT are declarations made by God through prophets that are supposed to occur because the prophecy said they would occur in plain blunt language. The problem, as I stated in the OP is that when God gets too specific like with the Nile drying up the whole thing blows up in his face. The Nile has never been bone dry in 6000 years that we know of and it never will because there are simply too many tributaries that feed it. It was a dumb prophecy to make which is why he didn't make it. Scholars wrote it out of their imaginations.

    Have a look at the list of failed prophecies in post #88. See how God stubbed his toe on all those which never happened even though he declared they would.
     
  14. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The Nile may not have been bone dry in the last 6000 years, but it may become so in the next thousand.

    Only a fool would ignore the prophecies of the Bible that clearly refer to a future time. Jesus said very plainly that he would go away, spend time away, and then return to the earth as Lord of Lords. The Church Age is marked by a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly one. Once a Messianic kingdom exists throughout the earth, there will be many more prophetic fulfilments.

    Jews have held stubbornly to a belief in their Messiah, without seeing the culmination of thousands of years of prophecy regarding the coming Messiah. For some Jews, Jesus was the culmination, but for others the wait continues.

    IMO, to argue that there is no evidence to support the coming of a suffering servant is nonsense. Look closely at the attached prophecies and their link to Jesus and you'll see that they, when taken all together, can only apply to one man (not Baha'ullah).

    Jesus has not yet returned, but his coming in glory will be the commencement of a new era on earth, marked by peace and remarkable changes in national borders and geography.

    Prophecies of the Suffering Servant:
    1. Genesis 3:15 > Galatians 4:4; 1 John 3:8. The seed of the woman.
    2. Genesis 12:3 > Matthew 1:1; Acts 3:25; 18:18; 22:18; Galatians 3:16. The seed of Abraham.
    3. Genesis 17:19; 21:12 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Hebrews 11:17-19. The seed of Isaac.
    4. Genesis 28:14; Numbers 24:17,19 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Revelation 22:16. The star out of Jacob who will have dominion.
    5. Genesis 49:10 > Matthew 1:2-3; Luke 3:33; Hebrews 7:14. A descendant of Judah.
    6. 2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 9:6 (7); Jeremiah 23:5 > Matthew 1:1,6; Acts 11:23; Romans 1:4. A descendant of David and heir to his throne.
    7. Micah 5:1 (2) > John 11, 14; 8:58; Ephesians 1:3-14; Colossians 1:15-19; Revelation 5:11. The Messiah’s eternal existence.
    8. Psalm 2:7; Proverbs 30:4 > Matthew 3:17; Luke 1:32. The Messiah is the Son of God.
    9. Isaiah 9:5-6 (6-7); Jeremiah 23:5-6 > Romans 10:9; Philippians 2:9-11. The Messiah bears God’s own name.
    10. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1, 16,19; Luke 3:1,23. Coming 483 years after the rebuilding of the wall in Jerusalem.
    11. Micah 5:1(2) > Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7. Messiah will be born in Bethlehem, Judea.
    13. Psalm 72:10-11 > Matthew 2:1-11. Adored by great persons.
    14. Isaiah 40: 3-5; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 3:1-3; Luke 1:17; 3:2-6. Announced by prophet.
    15. Isaiah 11:2; 61:1; Psalm 45:8 (7) > Matthew 3:16; John 3:34; Acts 10:38. Anointed with the Spirit of God.
    16. Deuteronomy 18:15,18 > Acts 3:20-22. A prophet like Moses.
    17. Isaiah 61:1-2 > Luke 4:18-19. Proclaims liberty and the acceptable year of the Lord.
    18. Isaiah 35:5-6; 42:18 > Matthew 11:5 and throughout the Gospels. Ministry of healing.
    19. Isaiah 8:23 – 9:1 (9:1-2) > Matthew 4:12-16. A ministry in Galilee.
    20. Isaiah 40:11; 42:3 > Matthew 12:15,20; Hebrews 4:15. Be tender and compassionate.
    21. Isaiah 42:2 > Matthew 12:15-16,19. Be meek and unostentatious.
    22. Isaiah 53:9 > 1 Peter 2:22. Be sinless and without guile.
    23. Isaiah 53:12; Psalm 69:10 > Romans 15:13. Bear the reproaches due to others.
    24. Psalm 110:4 > Hebrews 5:5-6. Be a priest.
    25. Zechariah 9:9 > Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11. Enter Jerusalem on the foal of an ***.
    26. Haggai 2:7-9; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 21:12-24; Luke 2:27-38, 45-50: John 2:13-22. Enter the Temple with authority.
    27. Isaiah 49:7; Psalm 69:5 (4) > John 7:48; 15:24-25. Be hated without cause.
    28. Isaiah 53:2; 63:3; Psalm 69:9 (8) > Mark 6:3: Luke 9:58; John1:11, 7:3-5. Rejected by his own people.
    29. Psalm 118:22 > Matthew 21:42; John 7:48. Rejected by the Jewish leadership.
    30. Psalm 2:1-2 > Acts 4:27. Plotted against by both Jews and Gentiles.
    31. Psalm 41:9; 55:13-15 (12-14) >Matthew 26:21-25, 47-50; John 13:18-21; Acts 1:16-18. Betrayed by a friend.
    32. Zechariah 11:12 > Matthew 26:15. Sold for 30 pieces of silver.
    33. Zechariah 11:13 > Matthew 27:7. Have his price given for a potter’s field.
    34. Zechariah 13:7 > Matthew 26:31,56. Forsaken by his disciples.
    35. Micah 4:14 (5:1) > Matthew 27:30. Struck on the cheek.
    36. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:30. Spat on.
    37. Psalm 22:8-9 (7-8) > Matthew 27:31, 39-44, 67-68. Mocked.
    38. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:26,30. Beaten.
    39. Psalm 22:17; Zechariah 12:10 (16) > Matthew 27:35; Luke 24:39; John 19:18, 34-37; 20:35; Revelation 1:7. Crucifixion.
    40. Psalm 22:16 (15) > John 19:28. Thirsty during crucifixion.
    41. Psalm 69:22 (21) > Matthew 27:34. Given vinegar to quench thirst.
    42. Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:21 (20) >John 19:33-36. Executed without a bone broken.
    43. Isaiah 53:12 > Matthew 27:38. Considered a transgressor.
    44. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1; Luke 3:1,23. ‘Cut off, but not for himself’.
    45. Isaiah 53:5-7, 12 > Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 3:16; Acts 8:30-35. Atone for the sins of mankind.
    46. Isaiah 53:9 > Matthew 27:57-60. Buried with the rich when dead.
    47. Isaiah 53:9-10; Psalm 2:7; 16:10 > Matthew 28:1-20; Acts 2:23-36; 13:33-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-6. Raised from the dead.
    48. Psalm 16:11; 68:19 (18); 110:1 > Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9-11; 7:55; Hebrews 1:3. Ascend to the right hand of God.
    49. Zechariah 6:13 > Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25-8:2. Exercise his priestly office in heaven.
    50. Isaiah 28:16; Psalm 118:22-23 > Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-7. The cornerstone of God’s spiritual temple.
    51. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1 > Acts 10:45. Sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews.
    52. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1-4; 49:1-2 > Matthew 12:21; Romans 15:10. Accepted by the Gentiles.

    These prophecies are nothing to do with the second coming. Yet, if one acknowledges these prophecies, one is naturally led, by the words of Jesus as well as many prophets, to believe in a future 'parousia'. This opens up a whole new epoch for prophetic fulfilment.
     
  15. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    In that case you would have to build your own case, and explain why you think the NT is a weak source.
     
  16. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Although I see parallels--just yesterday a friend who's lived overseas and traveled to Egypt agreed with me they have poverty like nowhere else--tourism is their only godsend--I respect the right for you to interpret the Bible differently than I do.
     
  17. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    All documents are “claims” ,made by someone……………..if the claims in the documents are likely to be true then they would be considered “good evidence” if the claims are unlikely to be true they would be considered “bad evidence” or “zero evidence”.

    So under what bases do you affirm that the bible (specifically the portions concerning the burial of Jesus) is unlikely to be true?
     
  18. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    We have Paul and Mark (2 sources)

    So what? the NT is a bunch of multiple independent documents. ………….the fact that we have atleast 2 that claim the burial of Jesus count as "multiple sources"
     
  19. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    "One instant I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to uproot and to demolish and to destroy. And when that nation repents of its evil for which I spoke concerning it, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to it. And at one instant I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant, And it will do what is evil in My eyes, not to hearken to My voice, I will repent of the good I said to benefit it." (Jeremiah 18:7-10)

    This passage of the Bible, suggests that God can change what He said He would do, depending on the actions of a people.
    So, what God says, is not always fixed. This is what Bible teaches about God.
     
  20. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    So what you're saying is that in each of these prophecies God was angry when he made them and then a little later when his temper had cooled down he decided it was rash to make those pronouncements and changed his mind about carrying them out?

    upload_2021-3-11_8-30-36.jpeg
     
  21. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    You missed the word, "secular". The gospels don't consist of multiple secular attestations because it is not recognized as a historical document, it is recognized as a proclamation of faith. I can quote you a few hundred passages out of the Harry Potter books that harry was a wizard. Does that mean a real Harry Potter lived and performed magic?

    Give me something outside the Bible. Bet you can't.
     
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