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Featured Is Yahweh A Liar? Yes, He Is. I Can Prove It.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by SeekingAllTruth, Mar 9, 2021.

  1. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    Very wise.
     
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  2. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    Still is.
     
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  3. Left Coast

    Left Coast Circular File Complaint Analyst
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    So that is not the removal of a decree, it's the declaration of one. So the exact opposite of the prophecy (which doesn't say which decree it's talking about anyway, making it unclear from the start). And no walls built. So not a good start.

    And again, Assyria no longer existed when Bahaullah was alive. So again, not a fulfillment of any prophecy. The rest of the prophecy is vague: lots of people have traveled between mountains, or from one sea to another, etc. There's really nothing to see here, so far.



    Right, and those places that you mentioned Bahaullah visiting were not "desolate." Again, the vagueness of the prophecy itself is a problem.

    And again, none of this happened, unless you suddenly switch from literal to "spiritual" interpretation mid-prophecy. Again, none of this looks good for anyone trying to make an argument for Bahaullah.


    Which as we've covered, he didn't. So that's out.

    This could apply to many many people in history, and again is non-specific.

    Again, vague. Which fortress? Which river? The prophecy itself doesn't say.

    More vague prophecies fulfilled by countless people. I've fulfilled those, for goodness' sake.

    How was Constantinople "desolate" in the 1860s?

    Again, we switch to non-literal interpretation. He gave sermons from Mount Carmel, you mean?

    What does "work his wonders" mean, and how many days is that? And where is that documented?

    So again, summarizing the list, we have things he outright didn't fulfill, things he fulfilled because they're so vague they've been fulfilled by any number of thousands of people, and non-literal "fulfillment."

    Coming as a Messenger of God is the thing attempting to be established, so that's a bit of question begging there. "Treading upon the high places" is again vague and has been done by countless people. There are people who spend their entire lives in "the high places of the Earth."

    So that just outright didn't happen. The Jewish people were not all gathered in their own land in Bahaullah's lifetime. They still aren't.

    Which mountain? Mount Zion?

    Again, these are squishy. Any number of religions/religious figures could be said to fulfill these.

    Again, not a remarkable thing - lots of people have been to Babylon. However, it didn't exist anymore as a city when Bahaullah was in the area. So you'd have to weirdly interpret a prophecy to "visit Babylon" to mean "visit the place where Babylon used to be and is now in ruins."

    Again, these are vague and have been "fulfilled" my millions.

    Bahaullah was a dude, so he never gave birth to anyone.

    Yikes. I have oceanfront property in Kansas to sell you, Trail! :D
     
    #63 Left Coast, Mar 9, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2021
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  4. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    I suspect the OP phrased the title the way that he did for the sake of clickbait.
     
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  5. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    Where as this demonstrates quite a bit of self-importance on your part.

    I'm quite amused. :thumbsup:
     
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  6. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    When the pyramid demonstrated water laying around the bottom of its body and also the Sphinx the river could have gone dry and then natural flooding put the water back. Yet meanwhile the loss of the water would have greatly affected life and Nature.

    To study if it were real....a geologist would say, forests or growth of a Nature Garden once existed in the Egyptian vicinity and is now gone.
    Sahara Desert Was Once Lush and Populated | Live Science

    Humans own consciousness. Humans manipulate and coerce information just for self human want, right or wrong. Which is determined to be lying. How can a God of any name lie? It is present, the entity, O mass Earth. Its heavens as spirits own form and exist in mass. So God by determined human scientific advice never lied. The scientist did, for a choice of his want, not of his need.

    We teach human spirituality for a purpose. Seeing humans, natural are spiritual and caring. So an alter condition was introduced......lying that caused a situation for preaching about communal family equality and living to be introduced. Which is why science has it wrong today.

    Preaching was a theists place to surmise and infer data reasoning to his science status to build a machine to get the energy power from mass. Knowing that mass was not giving it to him in any other way. So want of invention and how invention caused unnatural change became a new form of proselyting preaching. Maths and science.

    Most of their predictions are arguable as natural existed first, and a human is only applying a human study.
     
  7. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Yeah, I know. There was a time when this happened in India also. The world is still very cruel, as we saw during the IS rule. But how long? They had other people to crucify (they crucified two others with Jesus) - till the vultures ate all flesh and the bones fell down?
     
  8. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    That’s an accurate assessment...

    Waters or water, in the Bible, like @ Revelation 17:1, can mean people, which is clearly explained in Revelation 17:15.

    Sea, in the Bible, like we read @ Revelation 21:1 & Luke 21:25, can mean the wicked (the turbulent part of society), revealed in Isaiah 57:20.

    And earth, at times, can refer to people also, as seen in Genesis 11:1.
     
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  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    In the past, I would have answered your post point by point, but I am no longer compelled to do that because I have no need to prove anything to you, since that is not my job. I know that Baha’u’llah fulfilled all the prophecies for the return of Christ and the Messiah because He was both. Exactly HOW they were fulfilled is explained in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears so if people really want to know if Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah they can read that book. #1-8 and #1-9 in my post was just a list. The actual prophecies and the details regarding how they were fulfilled are in the book. It is called history and geography.

    The fact that individual prophecies could have been fulfilled by millions is a moot point because one needs to look at ALL the prophecies and I guarantee you will not find anyone except Baha’u’llah who fulfilled all of them.

    You can nitpick the meanings of the prophecies and you can interpret any of these prophecies in various and sundry ways in order to try to prove that Baha’u’llah did not fulfill them; that is what Jews and Christians do. It’s their loss, not mine. I already knew who Baha’u’llah was before I ever read one page of the Bible. The Bible prophecies are just icing on the cake.

    Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence, how to establish the truth of His claims. Please note that He said nothing about looking at Bible prophecies.

    “Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106
     
  10. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I think you (and probably the fundamentalists) are taking this verse too literally. "Prophecy" against nations were just blanket statements. Jewish literature, especially ones which condemned others, were filled with hyperbole. A good example is the with the destruction of nations. The authors would say that a nation would be utterly destroyed and its people wiped out but in the same book written by the same author those same people would be shown as surviving. So to me the term "the Nile will be dried up" is just hyperbole which is a common trait of Jewish literature.

    It could be a symbol for the land of Egypt not being fruitful anymore as well.
     
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  11. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    But doesn't that make prophecy unfalsifiable?
     
  12. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    maybe.
    True, I would always be more inclined to question my own capacities of understanding than the veracity of the Bible.

    If you want to look out for evidence, you might want to take a look at the complexity of prophecies that have been fulfilled, such as the gathering of Israel in the Holy Land.
     
  13. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I have checked those out already. One of the most interesting ones is the prophecy of Tyre but that also has some vague and ambiguous elements in it. It seems like the nature of biblical prophecy is too be vague enough to be truthful and suspect at the same time. Often times the question is: "to what extent must the words stated in a prophecy be fulfilled?"
     
  14. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Make the rivers dry—i.e., the canals of Egypt, by which the land was irrigated, and on which its fertility depended. It may also include the comparative drying, the lessening of the inundation of the Nile, which occurred from time to time, and was the cause of the various famines in Egypt mentioned in Scripture. Source: Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

    1 John 2:22 - Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.
     
  15. capumetu

    capumetu Active Member

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    The only way it can be determined accurately and justly sir is to judge Him during the millennial reign of Christ. We are living in satans world right now, at humans request I might add.
     
  16. Left Coast

    Left Coast Circular File Complaint Analyst
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    Since we're exchanging reading material, mine is much shorter but perhaps may be enlightening for you. I started a thread on what qualifies as a reasonably believable prophecy here:

    How To Make a Believable Prophecy

    Needless to say, nothing you've mentioned thus far remotely qualifies. If you want to dig further in, that's up to you.

    At some point the prophecies have to be examined individually. And when you break them down, as we've seen, they're either vague, interpreted "spiritually," or Bahaullah just did not meet the requirement at all. So that's all relevant.

    Similarly, you can contort prophesies to convince yourself that Bahaullah fulfilled them if you read them with a preconceived idea already in your head as you just conceded you did. It's called motivated reasoning. If you didn't have that idea already in your head, I wager you wouldn't independently conclude Bahaullah fulfilled the Bible's prophesies.

    We've discussed this somewhat before, but that doesn't help either. How can one conclude from "his own self" that Bahaullah was a Messenger of God? He allegedly did miraculous things? Show me independent verification. He was a loving wonderful person? So is my best friend. What else?

    If Bible prophecies are irrelevant to concluding that he's a Messenger, then it's an off topic tangent for this thread and you should take it elsewhere.
     
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  17. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    So since you think YHWH is a liar quoting the Bible you do believe that the Bible is YHWH's word right?
     
  18. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I don't know history of the Nile. But could it be this already happened for a period of time? I mean the prophecy does not say it will be dry forever.

    Other possibility to consider is, these are symbolic. So, Nile could be a symbol, a metaphor, for something else.
     
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  19. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    I mentioned else where that prophecies should be interpreted literally. If the psalm says, they have pierced my hands and feet, Christians want to interpret literally. If the prophecy is unfulfilled they want to say it's symbolic. They want to have their cake and eat it. Under conditions where one has a choice of literal metaphoric symbolic or allegory what the point in trying to interpret it. Too many different ways to approach the verse.
     
  20. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    The problem with the scripture books is that some of the highlights really are true.

    Another massive revelation occurred in the last century so I have a cheat sheet.

    Evolution of the God Concept Among the Hebrews: Paper 97, The Urantia Book



    .
     
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