BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I already offered a plausible explanation.
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Is Yahweh A Liar? Yes, He Is. I Can Prove It.
- Thread starter SeekingAllTruth
- Start date
I already offered a plausible explanation.
leroy
Well-Known Member
So we know that Paul knew James the brother of Jesus, and it is fare to asume that James would have known what happened to his brothers body……………therefore Paul was in a possition to know if Jesus was burried or not. (therefore Paul is a good source)…………..why would you claim that Paul is a weak source?
Irrelevant since we are talking about the burial of Jesus, not his birth……….
Ok let’s start with Corianthians (Paul) I am arguing that the source is reliable because the author knew the brother of Jesus, therefore he had access to information about Jesus, and his life…..this is why I arguer that it is a good source………………….you asserted that it is a week source so please justify your assertions.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Context helps to make a passage clear.
In John 14:15-20, Jesus is addressing his disciples;
'If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom this world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me; because I live, ye shall live also.
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.'
If you read this carefully, you will see that it's the 'world' that 'seeth me no more'. To the disciples he says, 'but ye see me'.
In John 17:8-14, Jesus once again speaks of the difference between those in the world, and those in Christ.
'For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me: for they are thine.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.'
So, not only does Jesus say 'now come I unto thee' [see Daniel 7:13,14], but he makes it clear that 'the world' is to be distinguished from the body of Christ.
Will Christ return? The weight of evidence is that He will, but the manner of his coming is not clear. He comes in glory, with the clouds, but what does the appearance of glory look like?
Zechariah 14:4. 'And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.'
Zechariah 12:9,10. 'And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications; and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for his firstborn.'
The scripture appears to me to be such a tight weave that there is no room for wild claims, such as you make about Baha'ullah. The first and second 'comings' point us towards one unique mediator, Jesus Christ.
Was Baha'ullah born in Bethlehem? [It only takes one false claim for the whole edifice to collapse.]
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, you do not not know about James, I could link to the debate where you lost that debate a long time ago. Denying it does not go away. That is an unjustified assumption that you make based upon an equivocation fallacy. And Paul is a dubious source if you look into his other claims. His whole "road to Damascus story" is rather full of holes. He is not a reliable source. You need to do better than that, but you have nothing better.
Paul is merely the claim, it is not the evidence. Do you have any reliable evidence for your claims?
leroy
Well-Known Member
We had a deal, you said that you where going to support your claims…………so just to be clear please quote my exact words and explain why is that an “equivocation fallacy”
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The scripture is anything BUT a tight weave. There are hundreds of prophecies so with no clue to whom they might be referring it is a like trying to navigate an unmapped swamp. One can grab a few verses to try to prove their beliefs because Bible verses to support just about any belief one wants to hold. Bible verses can also be interpreted in so many different ways that they are not helpful in determining who the return of Christ was/will be unless they can be applied to a claimant, and then we can see if fulfilled the prophecies by looking at him, who he was and what he did on his earthly mission, and what events took place surrounding his coming.
The wild claims are that the same man Jesus is going to return to earth from heaven in the physical clouds in the sky. There is not one single verse in the New Testament where Jesus promised to return to earth in the same body He had when He walked the earth 2,000 years ago or in a glorified physical body that Christians believe he has. Jesus never planned to come back to earth and that is why he said he was no more in the world and His work was finished here (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)
Baha’u’llah was not born in Bethlehem but nowhere does the Bible say that the return of Christ would be Jesus Christ. Christians seem to think that there can be only one Messiah. Jesus was the Messiah, but not the Messiah of the latter days. Baha’u’llah was the Messiah of the latter days and the proof is all in the Bible prophecies.
Below are just a few of the many, many Bible verses that prove that the Bab and Baha’u’llah were the ones foretold in the Bible. There are many more proofs as explained in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.
“Zechariah, speaking of the last days, prophesied of the twin holy souls who would appear, saying: “Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.” (Zechariah 4:14). In addition to the two ‘woes’, Revelation speaks of the ‘two olive trees’ and the ‘two candlesticks’. Malachi, speaking of the time of the end, prophesied:“Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” (Malachi 4:5). This was the very land, Persia, in which Daniel beheld:“… one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven …” (Daniel 7:13).
The Báb foretold that this great Redeemer would appear exactly nine years after his own coming. He would, therefore, as prophesied in the Old Testament, ‘suddenly come to his temple’. He would thus come just as Christ had so often emphasized in the Book of Revelation: “Behold I come quickly.”
Malachi, who called it the great and dreadful day of the Lord, foretold the appearance of two at the time of the end, saying:“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple …” (Malachi 3:1). The Báb repeatedly said that he was the Dawn, but that the Promise of all Ages Who was soon to come after him would be the Sun. He foretold that this great world Saviour would usher in an age of unprecedented progress and peace.
Naturally, I now wanted to learn everything that I could about the Báb and as well as about the One who was to follow. After all, three of my most basic proofs had been fulfilled:
1. This Faith had begun at a time when ‘the Gospel of Christ had been preached in all the world for a witness’ (1844).
2. This Faith had brought its message to the world at the exact year ‘when the times of the Gentiles’ had been fulfilled (1844).
3. This Faith had appeared in the year foretold by Daniel, and at the time when, according to Christ, mankind should ‘stand in the holy place’ (1844).
All three of these vital initial clues had been fulfilled by the coming of this Faith in 1844; therefore I knew I had to go on.”
Thief in the Night, pp. 93-94
“However, it was in the Book of Zechariah that I found the most striking evidence of all that the great Redeemer of the last days would come from Babylon. When Zechariah saw the vision of the one who would say: ‘I am returned to Jerusalem’, he also beheld two olive trees. He asked God to tell him the meaning of the appearance of these two olive trees which appeared in his vision.
“Knowest thou not what these be?’ the Lord asked.
“No, my Lord,’ Zechariah answered.
Then God explained the meaning. Zechariah records it thus: “Then he answered me and spoke unto me saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel …” (Zechariah 4:6). In addition to being the name of a rule, this title ‘Zerubbabel’ has a special symbolic significance when we examine its true meaning as given in these verses of Zechariah.The word Zerubbabel, according to the Oxford University Press red-letter edition of the King James version of the Bible, means ‘Begotten in Babylon’. Other references say that it means ‘Scattered in Babylon’. Cruden, in his Unabridged Concordance, declares it to mean ‘Banished in Babylon’ or ‘Stranger in Babylon’. (‘Born’ in other editions.)
All these descriptions fit Bahá’u’lláh. He was ‘banished’ to Babylon from Persia. He was a ‘stranger’ in that land. There in Babylon, his Faith was ‘begotten’. He was in the end ‘scattered’ with his followers, until he, himself, reached the ancient land of Canaan promised by God to Abraham as an inheritance in the last days.
The Faith of Abraham and the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh were both ‘begotten’ in Babylon. The Holy Spirit descended upon each of them in Babylon, and they poured forth the light from their houses of truth in that ancient land. This, too, was foreseen and foretold by Zechariah in his vision: “Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, “The hands of Zerubbabel (Begotten in Babylon) have laid the foundation of this house;
his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you.” (Zechariah 4:8–9).
The Word of God, Abraham, laid the foundation of the house of Israel in Babylon. The Word of God, Bahá’u’lláh finished it, and brought it to fulfilment. Both were ‘begotten in Babylon’. Thus, it was to them, Zerubbabel, that Zechariah directed the message of God:“This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel (Begotten in Babylon) saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.” (Zechariah 4:6). Lest there be any mistake, Zechariah asked God once more concerning the meaning of the two olive trees. The Lord answered him saying: “These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.” (Zechariah 4:14).
These two olive trees were Abraham who began the concept of the oneness of God in Babylon, and Bahá’u’lláh who brought the concept of the oneness of God and religion to its fulfilment in Babylon. In yet another way, these two olive trees were the Báband Bahá’u’lláh, who in the last days ‘stand by the Lord of the whole earth’.I also discovered that the meaning of the word Baghdád, the city in which Bahá’u’lláh declared his Mission, is: ‘The City of God’.
Again, Bahá’u’lláh had fulfilled the promises of the sacred Scripture. He had kept the prophecies of Micah, Isaiah, Zechariah, and those of Islám and India, which foretold that the Messiah would come to the land of Babylon, withdraw into the wilderness, then, from that land of ancient mystery, proclaim his mission to the whole world.
I marked the second proof: Fulfilled.”
Thief in the Night, pp. 115-117
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Sandra Jayne
Member
Yahweh is okay when he makes grand sweeping prophecies that he will do things that are described in vague opaque terms like, "And I will bring forth great suffering on the inhabitants of the earth for they have done evil in my sight. I the Lord have spoken." Well, duh! We've seen people suffering every day since hominids stood upright. But when Yahweh gets real specific then he has a way of tripping all over himself.
Yahweh lied to no less than three prophets in the Old Testament that he would dry up the Nile river and he never did.
"I will dry up the streams of the Nile and sell the land to evil men; by the hand of foreigners I will lay waste the land and everything in it. I the LORD have spoken." Ezekiel 30:12
Never happened.
"...the river shall be wasted and dried up. The fishermen will groan and lament, all who cast hooks into the Nile." Isaiah 19:5,8
Never happened.
"They shall pass through the sea of Egypt, and the waves of the sea shall be smitten and all the depth of the Nile dried up." Zechariah 10:11
The Nile never dried up.
Christians invent all sorts of excuses for God's failure to keep his word. One says, "Well, these are metaphoric. God means he will figuratively dry up the Nile." What???? Another says, "Well, God is really saying that he will dry up the tributaries of the Nile, not the Nile itself."
To that I have a very succinct explanation of why that is erroneous:
The original Hebrew text simply uses the plural form of the word for "Nile" (Ye'or), hence literally the "Niles", likely referring to the various stretches of the river, or the Blue Nile and the White Nile that at one point run together. The plural "Niles" cannot be stretched to mean mere tributaries that would not be considered part of the Nile proper at all. A few other respected translations make this passage a bit more clear:
- "I will dry up the waters of the Nile and sell the land to an evil nation. I the LORD have spoken," New International Version
- "I will dry up the Nile River and sell the land to wicked men. I, the LORD, have spoken!" New Living Translation
Then there's always that old chestnut any apologist can fall back on when all else fails.
"It's a future prophecy yet to be fulfilled."
Come on!
The photo has been used for illustrative purposes.
The Nile, the life giver of ancient, medieval and modern Egypt is running dry.
The photo has been used for illustrative purposes.
The Nile, the life giver of ancient, medieval and modern Egypt is running dry.
Sandra Jayne
Member
"It's a future prophecy yet to be fulfilled." Maybe it was.Yahweh is okay when he makes grand sweeping prophecies that he will do things that are described in vague opaque terms like, "And I will bring forth great suffering on the inhabitants of the earth for they have done evil in my sight. I the Lord have spoken." Well, duh! We've seen people suffering every day since hominids stood upright. But when Yahweh gets real specific then he has a way of tripping all over himself.
Yahweh lied to no less than three prophets in the Old Testament that he would dry up the Nile river and he never did.
"I will dry up the streams of the Nile and sell the land to evil men; by the hand of foreigners I will lay waste the land and everything in it. I the LORD have spoken." Ezekiel 30:12
Never happened.
"...the river shall be wasted and dried up. The fishermen will groan and lament, all who cast hooks into the Nile." Isaiah 19:5,8
Never happened.
"They shall pass through the sea of Egypt, and the waves of the sea shall be smitten and all the depth of the Nile dried up." Zechariah 10:11
The Nile never dried up.
Christians invent all sorts of excuses for God's failure to keep his word. One says, "Well, these are metaphoric. God means he will figuratively dry up the Nile." What???? Another says, "Well, God is really saying that he will dry up the tributaries of the Nile, not the Nile itself."
To that I have a very succinct explanation of why that is erroneous:
The original Hebrew text simply uses the plural form of the word for "Nile" (Ye'or), hence literally the "Niles", likely referring to the various stretches of the river, or the Blue Nile and the White Nile that at one point run together. The plural "Niles" cannot be stretched to mean mere tributaries that would not be considered part of the Nile proper at all. A few other respected translations make this passage a bit more clear:
- "I will dry up the waters of the Nile and sell the land to an evil nation. I the LORD have spoken," New International Version
- "I will dry up the Nile River and sell the land to wicked men. I, the LORD, have spoken!" New Living Translation
Then there's always that old chestnut any apologist can fall back on when all else fails.
"It's a future prophecy yet to be fulfilled."
Come on!
The Nile, the life giver of ancient, medieval and modern Egypt is running dry. Crops are perishing n the Nile Delta where half the 97 million Egyptians live. Dams near the southern city of Aswan curtail the flow and prevent silt carried by the water from fertilising the land. Rubbish blocks the canals that deliver Nile water to farms.
The Nile is running dry.
Prior to the building of the Aswan High Dam in the 1960s, more than 120 million tonnes of silt washed down the Nile each year and accumulated in its delta. Without this annual silt flow to replenish it, the Nile Delta is shrinking – in some places the coastline is receding by as much as 175 metres a year.
Nile Delta Disappearing Beneath the Sea
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
I think it's a coincidence. Why does God finally keep his promise 3000 years after making the prophecy? he's punishing Egyptians that are 3 millennia removed from the people who were pissing him off back then. Doesn't make a bit of sense. But then that's God, right?
Sandra Jayne
Member
A stone was found called the 'Famine Stela' which talks of a 7yr famine because the Nile had failed to flood.
I do not claim to understand everything in the Bible but rather am in awe of prophecies that did come true, that knowledge people of the time should not have like knowing that the Earth was a globe hanging on nothing. Laws given to Moses in regard to cross infection after touching the dead.
The Bible was written across a time span of approximately 1,600 years, by more than 40 different people with varying educations, backgrounds and occupations, kings, fishermen, soldiers, shepherds and a doctor. It was written on three continents in three different languages, Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic and yet the Bible has one consistent message from Genesis to Revelation and that is God’s message, salvation and redemption in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ. I find that quite amazing and thought provoking.
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SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
You THINK it has one consistent message. I have to give this disclaimer so I won't be mistaken for preaching to you: this is what I have read on several websites talking about Jesus and the OT--There's nothing in the Old Testament about Jesus. Just a lot of vague passages like "I will raise up a prophet from among you and I shall put words in his mouth bla bla..." Like I told somebody else, that could refer to a dozen prophets like Ezekiel, Daniel, Obadiah and all the rest. It doesn't have to pertain to Jesus because the passages don't mention something more definite like "I will send my son to bring salvation to you." Nothing like that is even known in the OT. The Jews had no concept at all about God having a divine begotten son, just a belief that a Messiah would deliver Israel from its oppressors.
When Jesus didn't fulfill any of the OT's expectations churchmen came up with the notion that Jesus came as a humble servant the first time and will then come again as king and conqueror a 2nd time. That's the 2nd coming. The gospel writers fashioned their picture of Jesus around Isaiah 53. You know "A man acquainted with grief, borne our sins, by his stripes..." etc. That's not about Jesus, in Isaiah in chap 51 somewhere Isaiah says he is referring to Israel as God's son. All of 53 is a portrait of Israel, not Jesus. There's so much more but this is already too long.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
If this is the evidence upon which your faith has been built, then I would look again at the evidence!
No. 1. The Gospel is still being preached around the world today. According to Bible translation agencies, there are around 1800 languages that still do not have access to translated scriptures, neither do they have churches planted in their midst.
No. 2. The 'times of the Gentiles' is connected to the time that Jerusalem will be trodden down by Gentiles, rather than occupied by Jews [see the words of Jesus, Luke 21:24] Since Jerusalem was trodden down by Gentiles in 1844, this date for the fulfilment of prophecy is clearly wrong.
No. 3. In Matthew 24:14,15 Jesus says 'And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)'
So, not only has the preaching of the Gospel not reached its end, but the 'abomination of desolation' has not occurred, for at this time 'will the end come'. The end did not come in 1844.
Baha'ullah and Bab, and also Muhammad, are not to be found in the Bible. There is good reason for this. God chooses a particular people, Israel, to be the people through whom his purposes and will are fulfilled. The Messiah, the only Messiah, is a descendant of the tribe of Judah, prophesied to be born in Bethlehem, the city of David.
Furthermore, the Comforter is not another Messiah, but the HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit is said to 'abide with you forever' [John 14:16]..something Baha'ullah cannot do, since he is flesh and blood.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
So where's the Temple that's supposed to be built on the Dome of the Rock mosque that the antichrist commits this abomination of desolation, where he sets up a statue of himself and then magically brings it to life and it begins speaking and he then commands the world to worship it? (no kidding; people really believe this stuff--I know, I was one of them at one time-->
). You think the Muslims are going to give up the oldest mosque in existence without every Muslim in Jerusalem tearing the city apart? Even the Jews know they couldn't pull off tearing down the Dome. And frankly, they couldn't care less about building another temple. Most of them are atheist.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That's God alright, God operates on His own timetable, not ours.
What has been ordained by God does not always make sense to us, but we cannot control an All-Powerful God.
“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
That's God alright, God operates on His own timetable, not ours.
What has been ordained by God does not always make sense to us, but we cannot control an All-Powerful God.
“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284
He is his own man, that's for sure.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You did not follow through with the deal. It was shown to you time and time again how the word "brother" did not necessarily mean biological brother, but more likely meant a person that also believed the Jesus myth. By the author's usage it probably meant the latter. That was the word you abused in your fallacy.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You mean He is His own God.He is his own man, that's for sure.
Sandra Jayne
Member
There are numerous prophesies in the Old Testament about the Messiah and Jesus fulfils all of them, some too specific to be coincidences.
The Messiah would come from the lineage of David from the tribe of Judah-true
He would be born in Bethlehem-true
Massacre of children at his place of birth-true
Would enter Jerusalem on a donkey-true
Would spend time in Egypt-true
Would be called a Nazarene-true
At death would be given vinegar to quench his thirst-true
Messiah would be betrayed-true
Would be rejected by his own people-true
When people were 'crucified' at dusk if they were not dead their bones would be broken to hasten death but it was foretold that the Messiah would be pierced but no bones would be broken-true
There are more but I hope I have made my point.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, Jesus did not fulfill all of them, and that is one reason that the Jews did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah.
Jesus was 'a Messiah' but he was never slated to be 'the Messiah' of the latter days, which is the Messianic Age.
There are so many Old Testament Prophecies that Jesus did not fulfill, I would not even know where to start, but below are a few:
Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.