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Featured Is Yahweh A Liar? Yes, He Is. I Can Prove It.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by SeekingAllTruth, Mar 9, 2021.

  1. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    Well, please don't respect my rights, just tell me if you know of an instance where the Nile ever dried up. If you cannot, please explain for us what God meant when he said it would.
     
  2. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    >>>>>>>Jesus has not yet returned, but his coming in glory will be the commencement of a new era on earth, marked by peace and remarkable changes in national borders and geography.

    Please tell this to cOLTER. He's a Christian and he believes that Jesus already returned on Pentecost. Others Christians here believe Jesus returned at the Transfiguration. Still others believe Jesus returned when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 CE. There are about as many theories about when Jesus will return as there are Christians. Seems like an awful lot of confusion about this. Or are you saying your interpretation is right and all the other Christians are wrong? Didn't Paul command, "Be of one mind"?
     
  3. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    Granted, we don’t have secular sources………. What you have to do is explain and justify why is it that we need secular sources to establish historicity?

    To me is like saying “we don’t have -non Greek- sources that corroborate that Alexander the Grate was born in Macedonia” therefore we can claim that he was born in Macedonia.
     
  4. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    No, I am just saying the Bible is saying God can change what He said.
    I don't see the reason is God's emotion.
    It just teaches that humanity sees the result of actions. What God says is conditional, upon humanity action.
    And for a believer, it is considered a test.
    A believer does not say, why God changed what He said. A believer would say, God can do what He wills. If today He said something, next day, He said something else, a believer obeys and follows God, and puts trust in God, and believed whatever God does has a reason, and He knows best. I am just saying what God of Bible expects. But as I said, If you do not believe in the Bible, it is understandable you would not believe in this God.
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Jesus never said that. Jesus said:

    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    no more
    phrase of more

    1. nothing further.
      "there was no more to be said about it"

    2. no further.
      "you must have some soup, but no more wine"

    3. exist no longer.
      "the patch of ground was overgrown and the hut was no more"

    4. never again.
      "mention his name no more to me"

    5. neither.
      "I had no complaints and no more did Tom"
    Translate no more to
    Definitions from Oxford Languages
     
  6. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The thing that unites Christians is the Holy Spirit, sent by the Lord Himself. There may be differences in understanding of scripture, just as there are between children and adults in learning, but if one is born again of the Spirit and open to His leading, then He will lead into the truth. The first requirement is repentance, and the second is faith.

    It's good to debate scriptures and to demonstrate one's reasoning, because the Spirit of truth is not unreasonable. However, the people most likely to understand God's will are those whose lives most perfectly reflect His love and righteousness.

    As regards Jesus returning at Pentecost, there is clearly truth in this assertion. The one God comes to dwell on earth..amongst and within. The Spirit of God that was in Jesus Christ is the same Spirit sent to his disciples at Pentecost. The difference between a disciple of Jesus and Christ Himself is the 'measure' of the baptism, which for Christ was 'the fulness of the Godhead bodily'. For disciples, those that make up the body of Christ, the Holy Spirit is received, I understand, in proportion to our faith and obedience.

    There is, however, a difference between the coming of the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, and the return of Jesus Christ, the Son of Man. In Acts 1:11 it says, 'this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.'

    The question that remains is one that concerns 'dispensationalism'. For two thousand years, from about the time of Abraham, God chose a particular people, later called Israel, to be the instrument of his will and purpose. God made promises to Abraham, and his descendants; some of these promises have yet to be fulfilled, and some cannot be fulfilled until the coming of the Messiah (again). It would contradict God's promises to cut short our existence on this earth, and not to fulfil these promises [see Genesis 15:18].

    After the destruction of the temple, the nation of Israel were scattered to the four corners of the earth. Their covenant with God was held in abeyance, and the Church Age began. This Church Age, which has focused on Gentile salvation, has lasted nearly two thousand years, but may well be coming to an end. The nation of Israel is once again restored to a land, but still in a condition of unbelief. For 'all Israel' to be saved, there must yet be a turning to Christ. The first will be last.

    In seeking to understand the scriptures, we are also seeking to understand God's will for ourselves. To believe the Bible, is also to believe that God has a will and purpose for our lives, and, indeed, for the whole of heaven and earth.

    To reject God is itself a judgment by his Word. As it says in Psalm 14:1,'The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.'
     
  7. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    The danger in these long discourses is that the reader doesn't know how much of it is your own opinion, how much is stuff you've picked up from preachers and other Christians that tickled your ears and how much is truly revelation of the Holy Spirit. There's no uniformity of belief.
     
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Nope. You have that backwards. If you want others to accept such a poor source the burden of proof is upon you.

    Of course some of the major claims of the NT have already been refuted. So I do not see how you can possibly support that book.
     
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  9. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    Why do you think is a poor source?



    For example?

    I accept the burden proof, what does take for you to consider something a “good historical source” ?

    Let’s start with Paul, he wrote within 10-20 years after the events that he is reporting, he knew some of the witnesses, and some of the events that he reports are consistent with other sources. ………….why isn’t this good enough for you?......
     
  10. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    I can answer that. Because three-quarters of the NT is pseudepigrapha. Pseudepigrapha are falsely attributed works, texts whose claimed author is not the true author. Note the word, false. That's a fancy definition for the texts being fraudulent. 2 Thessalonians, Ephesians, Colossians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus, as well as the ‘Petrine’ epistles Jude, 1 Peter and 2 Peter are all falsely attributed to the authors that bear their names.

    THAT is why we cannot take the New Testament as factual evidence.
     
  11. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    OK but I am talking about specifically about Paul (Corinthians) what’s wrong with that?.............why is that a poor source?
     
  12. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    I lost track. Poor source for what?
     
  13. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    Don’t worry I´ll put you in context.

    1 You (or someone else) Asked me for an example of a fullfiled prophecy

    2 I answered the burial of Jesus

    3 You and/or @Subduction Zone said that there is no evidence for the burial of Jesus

    4 I answered, yes we have multiple independent attestation (Paul and Mark)

    5 You and/or @Subduction Zone answered “but these are poor sources”

    6 I asked ¿well what is wrong with Paul (Corinthians) for example?..............why is this a poor source?

    *I am not sure if you would assert point 5 or not, o if you don’t affirm point 5 I apologize for misrepresenting your view
     
  14. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    Okay, thanks for bringing me up to speed. Now I would ask, "How is Corinthians a source to prove Jesus was buried? What we have actually are excellent historical "multiple attestations"--if we're going to use that phrase--attesting that criminals who were crucified by the Romans were usually left to rot on the cross where their remains were picked clean by buzzards. Afterward, what was left was thrown into a pit without criminals' remains and covered over. That part of the prophecy seems to have been fulfilled,

    "He made his grave with the wicked." Isaiah 53:9

    But that was an inglorious end for Jesus far as Paul and the gospel writers were concerned. So they decided to say that Jesus wasn't left on the cross like some common criminal. No, the son of God had to be given a proper burial so he could rise on the 3rd day. I mean how can a heap of bones and some sinew rise from the dead? It'd look like something out of a horror movie.

    So why go with Corinthians when we have lots of historical evidence for what really happened to Jesus' body?
     
  15. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    Corinthians was written by Paul, and Paul knew Peter and James the brother of Jesus, surely Jesus’s favorite disciple and his brother would have known what happened to his body,…….. Paul was in a position to know what happened to Jesus, therefore it is a reliable source.





    The key word is “usually”, which implies that there where exceptions, (we know this because we have found crucified bodies in tombs)

    Jesus was not a criminal from the point of view of the Romans, so why wouldn’t Jesus be a candidate to be such an exception?....................
    Besides the Gospels explain why was an exception done, a rich and influential man (Joseph of Arimathea) asked for the body





    Well if the authors of the gospels where going to invent the burial story why introducing Joseph of Arimathea as the “good guy” who buried Jesus? Why not Jesus´s family or his disciples?
     
    #115 leroy, Mar 11, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
  16. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    Because in reality Jesus wasn't a prophet. He was a seditionist against Rome and that's what they did to seditionists. Read Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth. by Reza Aslan.
     
  17. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    When did Paul say that he knew "witnesses". If anything he often went against the supposed witnesses.

    And you cannot be much ofva scholar of the Bible if you are unaware of some of its biggest failures. Even you must know that the author of Luke really screwed the pooch when it came to the Nativity myth.
     
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You need to separate the claim from the evidence. You said that you would show the Bible to be reliable. You have not done so yet.
     
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  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    If you are referring to the prophecies you are right; we do not know what qualifies for God because we do not know what God intended for them to mean. I have a certain opinion because I believe that Baha’u’llah fulfilled them because I know what He actually did. You have a different opinion as to what they mean based upon the meaning you assign to the words in the verses but you only have half of the picture because you have nothing to apply the meaning to, so you are just guessing what it might mean or what you think it is supposed to mean, like Jews and Christians.
    I doubt that any of them have gone through all the Bible prophecies and explained how they apply to a person who they believe is the alleged return of Christ, but if you know of anyone who has done that kind of research please let me know.

    Why would what convinced me convince you? You are a separate person with a different background and way of thinking.

    For me it was the message of Baha’u’llah that I was initially drawn to, the oneness of mankind, the oneness of religion and that there is one God and many religions of God, all of which are true. The underpinning theology of progressive revelation made logical sense to me; the idea that God sends a new Messenger in every age who reveals a new religion with a message and teachings and laws that are pertinent to the age in which He appears. I also thought that the Baha’i teachings regarding the soul and the afterlife made sense, as well as the harmony of science and religion.

    When I first became a Baha’i I was not concerned as to whether God existed or whether Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God. I believed that because it was part of the Baha’i beliefs, but I did not understand anything about God or Messengers of God and how they are connected. Then for decades I had many other life concerns so I fell away from the Baha’i Faith and did not think much about it, although it was always lurking in the background. It was only about eight years ago that it emerged from the background and entered the foreground, and then it slowly became the most important thing in my life, aside from the cats. It was during this period that I started really questioning and analyzing my beliefs and learning about God and Messengers of God as well as other religions, mainly Christianity. I never even read one page of the Bible until eight years ago because I saw no reason to do so. I wasn’t interested in religion or God all those years, it was just something I believed in.
    What I meant is that they are not intended to be a roadmap to who would me the return of Christ/Messiah, giving specific and verifiable details of the future event being prophesied such as names, dates, times, specific locations, and specific actions or events so nobody could miss him. I think they were intended to be used to identify the return of Christ/Messiah when he actually comes, by matching up what the prophecy says with what the Prophet actually did. Without someone to apply the prophecies to people can imagine they mean all kinds of things, and that is what Jews and Christians have done.
    Fair enough. I meant that if there is a God, we cannot tell Him what to do.
    They are believable to me because I have someone to connect them to, and I can see how they were fulfilled by Him. The prophecies were not intended to be convincing since that was not their purpose. Do you think that most Jews who recognized Jesus and became Christians did so because of the OT prophecies? Why then would most Baha’is have become Baha’is because of the Bible prophecies that show that Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ/Messiah?
    When I say God does not care, I mean that God does not need your belief, because God has no needs. I never said that God plans to punish you for not believing in Him. The passage I quoted says that God will forget them because they as they have forgotten Him and ignored His Presence in His Day. This is not like any day of the past; it is the Day of God.

    “In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: “And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day.” This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 13

    Fair enough. I was using deductive reasoning, assuming that the prophecies would have to meet God’s requirements regarding what He was trying to achieve, if God actually spoke to those Prophets.
    It is called a mission from God and if you want to know what He accomplished you’d have to read the books I cited. As I have said myriad times, nobody can prove that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God, all we have is evidence that indicate that was the case.
    This is a subjective thing, as not everyone will perceive His Words as the Words of God. I did not perceive that when I first read them over 40 years ago, but later when I picked up the book and read them again when I was at a different place in my life I perceived it immediately, and I broke down in tears. It was then that I made the connection between Baha’u’llah and God and knew he was a Messenger of God. Before that day in June 2014 I believed, after that day I knew, and it marked a turning point in my life.
    I am not going to argue about that. How do you think you know that He didn’t, from one post that I posted with a few verses? That does not sound very thorough to me. It sounds like a snap judgment especially given you do not even know anything about what Baha’u’llah did to fulfill them. Do you know any Baha’i history?
    What would be the best one to me would not be the best one to you but I will cite a couple of my favorite predictions He made. I’ll have to do that in another post so I won’t exceed the character limit.

    (Continued on next post)
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Please bear in mind that the following predictions that Baha’u’llah made were delivered to the kings and rulers as warnings, they were not intended to be prophecies that would be proof that He was a Prophet, although for me that are part of the evidence that indicates who He was.

    NAPOLEON III (excerpts from a longer Tablet)

    “Give ear, O King, unto the Voice that calleth from the Fire which burneth in this verdant Tree, on this Sinai which hath been raised above the hallowed and snow-white Spot, beyond the Everlasting City: ‘Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Merciful!’ ……. Arise thou to serve God and help His Cause. He, verily, will assist thee with the hosts of the seen and unseen, and will set thee king over all that whereon the sun riseth. Thy Lord, in truth, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty......

    Ere long the world and all that thou possessest will perish, and the kingdom will remain unto God, thy Lord and the Lord of thy fathers of old. It behoveth thee not to conduct thine affairs according to the dictates of thy desires. Fear the sighs of this Wronged One, and shield Him from the darts of such as act unjustly.

    For what thou hast done, thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou hast wrought. Then wilt thou know how thou hast plainly erred. Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) in this, the Straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast by this firm Cord. We see abasement hastening after thee, whilst thou art of the heedless. It behoveth thee when thou hearest His Voice calling from the seat of glory to cast away all that thou possessest, and cry out: ‘Here am I, O Lord of all that is in heaven and all that is on earth!’” Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, pp. 18-20

    That Tablet was written in 1869 when Napoleon was at the height of His glory. In 1870, Napoleon III fell in battle:

    In July 1870, Napoleon entered the Franco-Prussian War without allies and with inferior military forces. The French army was rapidly defeated and Napoleon III was captured at the Battle of Sedan.
    Napoleon III - Wikipedia

    EVERYTHING that Baha’u’llah predicted came to pass. All those who rejected His Tablets fell from power just as He had warned them would happen. Those who persecuted Him and exiled and banished Him met with an ever sorrier fate. This is all history so it cannot be refuted. The only monarch He addressed that did not fall from power was Queen Victoria, because she did not reject Baha’u’llah:

    Queen Victoria, upon reading the Tablet revealed for her by Baha'u'llah, remarked: "If this is of God, it will endure; if not, it can do no harm." (pdc 65) (18:49)
    From: 2nd Coming of Christ by David Yamartino

    Baha’u’llah also foresaw WWI and WWII in His Tablet to Kaiser Wilhelm I. He noted in this Tablet what had happened to Napoleon III, how he fell from power.

    KAISER WILHELM I

    “O KING of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High. He, verily, is the Most Gracious, the All-Bountiful. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves.Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.”
    Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 39
     
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