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Is it possible?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by atanu, Feb 4, 2011.

  1. atanu

    atanu Member
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    An authoritative Vedanta scripture declares:

    Do you agree that such an entity is truth? If not why? If yes, then why?

    Do you agree that such an attainement is possible? If not why? If yes, then how?

    ...
     
  2. Onkara

    Onkara Well-Known Member

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    Hello dear Atanu
    I don't expect to provide you personally with any fresh ideas here, but will offer a reply.

    Yes this is true and attainment is also true.
    Although I would not say one finds an entity in the way one may find an object if one looks hard enough: Atman is not an object that rolled under the bed. Nor is there an entity which responds to the name "atman" or any other name for that matter. As we know the above is illustrative guide and we can argue and demand proof of objects as much as we like, but that misses the goal or the reward of following this advice.

    With that said I am not here to prove evidence, it is up to the individual to look within. Atman is also said to be Consciousness, it is the foundation of being and it is singular. It can be found by discriminating from what it is not. It is not anything which changes or appears within it, but rather the foundation. It is the foundation in which everything appears or no longer appears and as such it is always with us and for that reason it is verily attainable.

    We can expand on this, but I wonder if you would enjoy input from the non-dharmic minds here first(?)

    On a side point, can you by any chance point me to find a logical explanation (from scripture or commentary) as to why it (Or Paramatman) is singular rather than plural? I am having trouble to locate a quotation.
     
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  3. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Yes. I wish so.
     
  4. Gaura Priya

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    I believe that Paramatman can be attained, in terms of His presence, but is never knowable, or comprehensible, even in the Spiritual Worlds. How can a flower understand the different elements which aid it to grow, such as the water, the soil, the sunlight, and the tender gardener?

    In terms of the Atman, the spiritual soul of every living being, yes, I see it as a continual striving of perfection. The ideal is there, and thus in both this life and in the next, we seek Dharma in every aspect of our lives. Kind of like bhakti in its stages of sambandha, abhideya and prayojana. It is eternal. We ourselves are a reflection of God's perfections, like unto a mirror that reflects the light of the sun with absolute glory. We just need to remove that dross through sadhana and yoga. :D
     
  5. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    We all attain these things upon death. Not sure what's to be found from seeking dead people though.
     
  6. atanu

    atanu Member
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    How do you know that though?

    ...
     
  7. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    It's the most logical conclusion based on available information. There's no rational reason to think otherwise.
     
  8. EddyM

    EddyM Member

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    If you don't know something, how can you identify it for what it is, and attribute its presence to being that of it?

    It cannot because it doesn't have a brain and the intelligence that is required. We humans are made up of water, consume our nutrition from food and were taken care of by adults when we were young and acquired the independence and learn to take care of our ownselves when we are older. And humans know very well about all these things thankfully due to science.

    What?

    What?

    What? Most people are adharmic. Like you for example. Clearly covertly passing nonsense under the guise of a Hindu speaking about Hinduism.

    What?

    What? But I thought you just said "we are striving for perfection" ?

    You just said "reflects the light... with absolute glory"
     
    #8 EddyM, Feb 4, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2011
  9. atanu

    atanu Member
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    There's no rational reason to think so either.
     
  10. EddyM

    EddyM Member

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    It seems not only do we not have non-dharmic minds offering any genuine input, we also have one asuric one posting nonsense. Possibly taking advantage of the fact that Hinduism is diverse and allows room for contrary opinions and doesn't outright label, condemn and attack heretics and infidels.
     
    #10 EddyM, Feb 4, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2011
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  11. Gaura Priya

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    It's the only thing that human language can limitedly convey that ideal of the Divine found in all religions. Obviously my own language limits any form of knowledge attributed through the Divine, but I also see those Divine qualities manifest in different people who have revealed a portion of that Divinity to mankind, such as Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, or Baha'u'llah.



    Personally, I see it not only as science and education that have been given us, but also the guidance of Divine power through these very disciplines. Just like how the table can not comprehend the carpenter which created it, although it may be provided different elements in its construction, such as nails, screws, perhaps adhesive and wood polish, in the same way, we human beings are still on a continual road in discovering those inspirational influences that have been given us.

    One can call it nature, others God, or even the spirit of life, in whatever language or definition that is given. :D I call it God.

    I never said that I was a 'Hindu', now did I?

    Dharma in its very definition refers to the occupation of the living being in striving for moksha in this lifetime. Dharma is a term that goes beyond 'Hinduism' and other human constructs for religion. Every living being has a Dharma (occupational duty, religion, religiosity) and a sva-dharma, which refers to the individual soul's true nature, which is being part of the Divine Ineffable.

    Our souls are perfect already, as a mirror reflects light. However, just like how the mirror is dirty due to imperfections, those imperfections are not inherent, but mere dross formed through bad exposure (dusty air). It is due to false ego (ahankara) and lust, greed and anger (kama, lobha, krodha, the Three Gates of Hell) which lead us from our perfect state in experiencing this mortal world.

    But through cleaning the mirror and polishing it (by garnishing ourselves with virtue, building a moral and ethical character), we continuously clean that mirror of the soul that it shines brighter and brighter. :D
     
  12. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Madan

    Thank you for the post. I request you to kindly read the OP and particularly, the definition of Atman, as in Chandogya. And then reflect on the questions.I feel that you may be projecting your particular belief on this sruti.

    As per the definition, this Atman and the one striving for perfection seem to be two different things to me.

    However, that does not matter as this thread is meant just for that -- to highlight how diverse our notion of atma is.

    ...

    ...
     
    #12 atanu, Feb 4, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2011
  13. Gaura Priya

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    Sorry, since I thought it was an all-inclusive thread, I assumed that non-dharmic perceptions of thought were allowable as well. :D

    In any case, let me put my alternative thinking cap on:

    Yes, I believe that such an entity is truth. Wherever truth is, the Atman, as Paramatman is. I think that to discover this truth is completely ineffable, and indescribable, which is why it is 'not this, not that.'

    In terms of attainment, I am not sure. I say both yes and no... Yes, because one can understand that we are actually part and parcel of God's form of bliss (sacchidanandam), however we can never be 'God' Himself in all his glory. We are unborn, uncreated souls who can attain this presence of Atman. However, we can never experience fully Atman in the quantity of It's qualities.

    I see it as the analogy of the drops of water to an ocean, or the spark or flame to a fire, we as jivatma are of the same eternal substance as the Paramatma, and attain It's presence for eternity. However, the quantitative amount between the Jivatma and the Paramatma differ. The water drop may merge into the water, but will still keep its individual atomic composition. In the same way, I see it thusly.

    I hope that helps... sorry if my words are not sufficient to describe a pretty high reality. :D
     
  14. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    Reaching the most logical conclusion is rational.
     
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  15. atanu

    atanu Member
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    :) My friend, your posts are always sweet and I cherish them.

    For this particular definition of Atman, which means the 'Me', which however is unknown, there is no reference to god or God. It is another perspective, whereby the knowledge of atman grants one certain goodies -- so to say.

    Your input is welcome. And I wish it to be all inclusive post.

    ...
     
    #15 atanu, Feb 4, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2011
  16. Gaura Priya

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    I am coming from a Vaishnava perspective, which sees Atman as Paramatman, and also Jivatma, according to context. So I will always be coloured in some way or another! :slap:
     
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  17. doppelganger

    doppelganger Through the Looking Glass

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    To declare some thing or entity is "the truth" is to fragment reality and make it untrue. In much the same way, the believer kills "God" when capturing an object through the action of belief itself.

    Yes and no. If there's genuinely no ego/"I am", then there is no subject to look upon itself as having "attained" anything. Thus, to "be" such that there are attainments, is to be wholly the experiencing self, and wholly the unfragmented "truth" of the universe at the same time. Put another way, to "be" is to be both fully "God" and fully human all at once. Where the divine and the grammatical intersect is where the soul is crucified.
     
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  18. ellenjanuary

    ellenjanuary Well-Known Member

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    Waveform, and we are particulate; but what we can do is align and resonate... just as the tao upon which we trod is not the eternal tao, our resonations can progressively approach but not achieve waveform. Truth, it seems, brings a lessening of differentiation; but to become true is to essentially unbecome.
     
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  19. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    A fairly meaningless assertion due to the fact that evil does not exist.

    Also lacking in meaning. What it should say is impervious to the effects of old age.

    Perhaps, but certainly not free from change.

    This is not exactly true. It can feel sorrow if it wishes, but it is also sinister in the respect that it implies sorrow is bad. Sorrow, like the atman, is part of what makes us human.

    Well, duh! :D Why not just skip the irrelevant, say it is non-physical and be done with it?

    Not really, this is just anthropomorphic projection. The atman understands that "truth" is relative.

    In a way, I suppose. In effect, "truth" is whatever the atman decides it is.

    As long as one is not looking in all the wrong places.

    Actually, if you ever encounter this facet of being, desiring to understand will be one of your last concerns. It will be all you can do to keep up. :)

    A bit of an over-reach, in my opinion, but in a sense, but only in a sense, is this "true".

    The inner self is a real thing, yes, however this portrayal is not particularly accurate based on my own experience.

    Yes, to reach the inner self is quite possible, highly probable in some cases. How you ask? That is for you to find out. :)
     
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  20. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Thanks. The red was my mistake in a way -- wrong words.

    ...
     
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