Is all of existence proof of God's existence?

[LuisDantas]

(...) So for theist, God not only exists, because reality exists, but God is the only fully meaningful explanation for what we experience as reality.

Why stop at God? Why not include Cthulhu, and Yog-Sothoth?
What about Azathoth, whose dreams are our reality?

As I understand it, some people do in fact use Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth as their practice deities, sources of inspiration, or perhaps just as illustrations of certain abstract ideas.

Of course, they are (quite literally) beasts of a very different nature from that of most Abrahamic, Deistic and Pantheistic conceptions of deity. Or so most people would hope, at the very least.

Which, to me, shows how pointless it is to focus on matters of literal existence of deities in the first place. Wondering whether a deity is "real" has next to no useful purpose whatsover. Attempting to convince others is even more wasteful.

Worse still, those efforts distract theists from the actual constructive uses of their deities.

Still, attempting to artificially "protect" theists from questions of that nature is hardly any solution for anything worth resolving. That would only encourage further damage and further vulnerability.

Instead, the only truly desirable situation is one where theists are well aware and well accepting that their specific beliefs about deities are very much a personal privilege as opposed to a reflection of wider reality.

Likewise, non-theists and other theists have no good reason to expect to convince theists, and no good reason to attempt to - as long as they have attained that understanding of theism as a personal privilege that does not suit itself for proselitism.

 

[Quintessence]

I just don't experience the desire to worship things.

There's a good chance that what you are thinking with the word "worship" is not the same as what I mean by the word "worship." If we deeply value something and behave in ways that express that sentiment, that's basically what worship is. It takes many forms from there. That said, it really isn't about "desiring" to worship things. It's just a natural expression of one's values.

 

[Revoltingest]

There's a good chance that what you are thinking with the word "worship" is not the same as what I mean by the word "worship." If we deeply value something and behave in ways that express that sentiment, that's basically what worship is. It takes many forms from there. That said, it really isn't about "desiring" to worship things. It's just a natural expression of one's values.

"Worship" has strong religious connotations.
And so I'd use "value" instead (lest my heathen status be doubted....which has happened.)

 

[david-david]

For many theists, their belief in God is based on all of reality being evidence for the existence of God. Forget science. Forget scientific method. Theists are not concerned with devices used to take simple measurements of reality. Theists are only concerned with measuring everything all at once in one breath. Theists are mostly concerned with talking about one single measurement. And that one single measurement is an appreciation of everything in reality. There is nothing objective about how we feel about reality. There is no device we can use to measure our feelings about reality. Either we appreciate reality as being something profound and meaningful, or, we do not. For people who appreciate reality as being deeply profound and meaningful in their life, the measure of all reality can only be accurately and completely represented by one and only one word. And that word is God. Any other words we used to represent reality, whether it is sets of mathematics or waxing poetics, all fall short and are incomplete representations of something always beyond simple representations. Reality is always much bigger than any words we use to talk about it. God is the only word with the representational power to accurately reflect the meaning behind the most deeply profound experience some theists have when they experience reality. So for theist, God not only exists, because reality exists, but God is the only fully meaningful explanation for what we experience as reality.

There is something else. Faith. Do we 'believe' what the Prophets and the Apostles penned is 'true' or do we call them 'liars'?

If any Prophet of old were here today telling others they were hearing from The LORD God, these persons might get sent to the Psychiatric evaluation room. And the doctors might ask, 'What can you provide that what you say you are receiving from God is something we or I can begin placing some belief upon as far as 'you' 'hearing' from The LORD God'?

Then it was 'works' done in Y'srael. Today, it is 'faith' believing that those things 'done' in Y'srael did occur.

And this is why archaeology and other 'sciences' came into being, I believe. To prove, scientifically and with evidence, that 'those' things did occur.

Some argue. But if The LORD God IS Love, why did HE have the Egyptians 'drown'?

Good question. As the Hebrews were crossing the 'water' on dry land, and as they were being chased by Egypt's army, why did The LORD God have the army drowned? Good questions.. Why didn't The LORD 'transport' the Hebrews from the one side to the other without having to part the sea and without having the Egyptians 'drown'? Good questions like this require for Scientific investigation.

Because, look, if 'I' were The LORD God, I would have had them live in 'peace' with one another, right?

What fault would anyone find if The LORD God 'made' everyone 'live in peace'? Who would complain? Everybody would LOVE that, right?

Well, what about the 'pagans' and the sorcerers and the diviners and practitioners of 'black magicks'? They have 'rights' also, right?

So rather than saying, 'Why did The LORD God have the Egyptians drown', maybe a person can ask, 'Why didn't the Egyptians know not to get in the water'? They might not have realized that what they were 'going' through, the parted 'Sea', was from The LORD God whom they did not have any 'belief' upon. But strange. Although Egypt is Misraim, one of the 'sons' of Ham, and Ham being a son of Noah, and Noah and his sons knowing of The LORD God and worshiping HIM, how did Egypt, or the Empire/Dynasty that a son of Ham established, so soon forget who his grandfather, Noah, was?

They can't use the 'curse' of Noah as an excuse since that 'curse', which is more of a blessing to begin with, was given to Canaan, another 'son' of Ham.

Ham:
Sons

Cush, Canaan, Phut, Misraim


How was the curse of Noah to Canaan more of a blessing than a curse?

Genesis 9:25-27 " And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant."

A servant to the servants unto his brethren, his other brothers. But blessed is The LORD God of Shem. And Canaan shall be 'his', The LORD God of Shem's, servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he will dwell in the tents of Shem; and Cannan shall be his servant while serving The LORD God.

Is this a 'curse'? The Levitical Priesthood is very similar if not very very similar.


But then again.... Are these 'accounts' true? Did Egypt really exist? Was there really an 'Exodus'? Was Misraim really Egypt at the beginning of Egypt?


Is this 'video' of some 'coral' findings really wheels of chariots? And if so, did they really come from Egypt and not from another place? How can any be so sure that these 'wheels' did not come from Saudi Arabia, the 'other' side of the 'sea'?

They could have been the 'wheels' of Saudi Arabian chariots which were 'crossing' the sea somehow, maybe to go and visit their 'sea' parted neighbors.. It was not uncommon that a person might walk 2 or 3 or even more days' journies on foot. Why would a quick chariot ride be seen as burdensome?


And so we have Abraham. He was given the 'house' supposedly in Saudi Arabia. And then we have the Hebrews, the 'great grandchildren' of Abraham ending up in Egypt, across the sea. And then we have his 'great grandchildren' returning back to Saudi Arabia, across the sea, and from there wandering in the wilderness on their way into The Promised Land.


So, before Abraham was Abraham, he was Abram, from Ur, the land of the Chaldees. Who are the Chaldees and where is Ur? It is in Iraq.

From Iraq, to Saudi Arabia, to Egypt, back to Saudi Arabia, back and forth the Mountainous areas of Ammon, Moab and Edom, finally going around somehow, probably to the North since the Tribe of Dan is there, because they were not allowed to cross 'these' territories, into The Promised Land, Y'srael.

^ < < Saudi Arabia is HERE.

 

[Baladas]

I'd say that all of existence is decent proof of the existence of existence itself.

 

[DustyFeet]

Worse still, those efforts distract theists from the actual constructive uses of their deities.

i very much enjoyed a peek into your perspective. this is not critism, may i request more about the statement above?

 

[LuisDantas]

i very much enjoyed a peek into your perspective. this is not critism, may i request more about the statement above?

Why, my pleasure (and thanks)!

Going but what I understand deities to be, they can be very constructive indeed as sources of inspiration and as a way of sharing values.

A big part of it is attaining and keeping certain mental states. That is one reason why artistic expression is such a meaningful part of religious practice.

In order to support that practice and keep it healthy, it is worth describing and discussing those deities extensively, frequently, and in varied ways.

But literal existence is not among the subjects worthy discussing, IMO. Far too quickly discussions about that subject matter degenerate into arrogance and failure to keep the deities in the space where they can be constructive.

 

[DustyFeet]

I just don't experience the desire to worship things

There's a good chance that what you are thinking with the word "worship" is not the same as what I mean by the word "worship."

i 2nd that, Quintessence, and thank u for saying that.

Revoltingest, u probably already know this, but for other readers, may i make this further distinction? i think there is a big difference for jews between worship and performing the ritual. non-spiritual non-believing jews may perform the ritual and appreciate it on an academic level.

 

[LuisDantas]

@DustyFeet , do you understand worship to be always a good thing?

May you tell me a bit about your perceptions of proper and unproper worship?

I have wondered for some time now if it is even possible for people to have enough insight into other people's practice to have the authority to warn them against worshipping "the wrong" God(s).

It seems to me that the attained inspiration and its observable effects are _at least_ as significant parameters to decide whether worship is proper than any scriptural or even doctrinary directives.

 

[DustyFeet]

There is something else. Faith. Do we 'believe' what the Prophets and the Apostles penned is 'true' or do we call them 'liars'?

If any Prophet of old were here today telling others they were hearing from The LORD God, these persons might get sent to the Psychiatric evaluation room. And the doctors might ask, 'What can you provide that what you say you are receiving from God is something we or I can begin placing some belief upon as far as 'you' 'hearing' from The LORD God'?

Then it was 'works' done in Y'srael. Today, it is 'faith' believing that those things 'done' in Y'srael did occur.

And this is why archaeology and other 'sciences' came into being, I believe. To prove, scientifically and with evidence, that 'those' things did occur.

Some argue. But if The LORD God IS Love, why did HE have the Egyptians 'drown'?

Good question. As the Hebrews were crossing the 'water' on dry land, and as they were being chased by Egypt's army, why did The LORD God have the army drowned? Good questions.. Why didn't The LORD 'transport' the Hebrews from the one side to the other without having to part the sea and without having the Egyptians 'drown'? Good questions like this require for Scientific investigation.

Because, look, if 'I' were The LORD God, I would have had them live in 'peace' with one another, right?

What fault would anyone find if The LORD God 'made' everyone 'live in peace'? Who would complain? Everybody would LOVE that, right?

Well, what about the 'pagans' and the sorcerers and the diviners and practitioners of 'black magicks'? They have 'rights' also, right?

So rather than saying, 'Why did The LORD God have the Egyptians drown', maybe a person can ask, 'Why didn't the Egyptians know not to get in the water'? They might not have realized that what they were 'going' through, the parted 'Sea', was from The LORD God whom they did not have any 'belief' upon. But strange. Although Egypt is Misraim, one of the 'sons' of Ham, and Ham being a son of Noah, and Noah and his sons knowing of The LORD God and worshiping HIM, how did Egypt, or the Empire/Dynasty that a son of Ham established, so soon forget who his grandfather, Noah, was?

They can't use the 'curse' of Noah as an excuse since that 'curse', which is more of a blessing to begin with, was given to Canaan, another 'son' of Ham.

Ham:
Sons

Cush, Canaan, Phut, Misraim


How was the curse of Noah to Canaan more of a blessing than a curse?

Genesis 9:25-27 " And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant."

A servant to the servants unto his brethren, his other brothers. But blessed is The LORD God of Shem. And Canaan shall be 'his', The LORD God of Shem's, servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he will dwell in the tents of Shem; and Cannan shall be his servant while serving The LORD God.

Is this a 'curse'? The Levitical Priesthood is very similar if not very very similar.


But then again.... Are these 'accounts' true? Did Egypt really exist? Was there really an 'Exodus'? Was Misraim really Egypt at the beginning of Egypt?


Is this 'video' of some 'coral' findings really wheels of chariots? And if so, did they really come from Egypt and not from another place? How can any be so sure that these 'wheels' did not come from Saudi Arabia, the 'other' side of the 'sea'?

They could have been the 'wheels' of Saudi Arabian chariots which were 'crossing' the sea somehow, maybe to go and visit their 'sea' parted neighbors.. It was not uncommon that a person might walk 2 or 3 or even more days' journies on foot. Why would a quick chariot ride be seen as burdensome?


And so we have Abraham. He was given the 'house' supposedly in Saudi Arabia. And then we have the Hebrews, the 'great grandchildren' of Abraham ending up in Egypt, across the sea. And then we have his 'great grandchildren' returning back to Saudi Arabia, across the sea, and from there wandering in the wilderness on their way into The Promised Land.


So, before Abraham was Abraham, he was Abram, from Ur, the land of the Chaldees. Who are the Chaldees and where is Ur? It is in Iraq.

From Iraq, to Saudi Arabia, to Egypt, back to Saudi Arabia, back and forth the Mountainous areas of Ammon, Moab and Edom, finally going around somehow, probably to the North since the Tribe of Dan is there, because they were not allowed to cross 'these' territories, into The Promised Land, Y'srael.

^ < < Saudi Arabia is HERE.

david-david, i i love-love this, thanku-thanku, if i could, i would send u a pizza-pizza

 

[DustyFeet]

May you tell me a bit about your perceptions of proper and unproper worship?

only one thing comes to mind...
this is hard to say...

i have observed 1 specific narrow set of behaviors that i would describe as "unproper". i suspect there are more. but listing them here, could discourage people.

there's an idea, a concept, in judiasm, that Torah learning is a special mitzvah. it operates differently than others, the best brief way to visualize it would like a battery or a capacitor. in this way, anything that approaches worship or the ritual is possibly "learning". and even if that worship or ritual or practice does not function on a level which most people describe as "effective". it still has tremendous value.

ok...

so... i def don't want to discourage **anyone** from **anything** because almost anything qualifies as "learning".

here's my one problem that i think is both relevant and constructive to present...

saying the words in hebrew, without knowing what they mean, ***and*** discouraging others from understanding them, for me is improper.

example: "rabbi, this word in the psalm 24 is bothering me, could it be a legal term?" rabbi answers "the english is there, it's obvious it's literal" this part up to here,IMO, is still kosher. what happens next is improper worship. rabbi says, "please read with me the psalm for wednesday." until the rabbi corrects the statement, the discouraging remark. anytime the rabbi leads the congregation in psalm 24, IMO, the **rabbi's** worship is improper. now maybe if the rabbi knows perfectly what is being said, i say maybe it's still "effective". but in my opinion, someone who claims they know and discourages others, probably doesn't know as much as they think...

 

[DustyFeet]

degenerate into arrogance

on the nose, brother! the number 1 biggest problem, i agree.

if i'm going to be thorough, besides knowing what the words mean, and meaning what is said ( kavanah? not the judge ) being "pure" and maintaining that "purity" are needed to effect a change here in the material world via spiritual means in this case via prayer. (please don't ask me about purity, whatever that actually means, and i'm not qualified to detail it ), in addition there's 2 qualities that are needed for the prayer to "rise": "love" and "fear". this is my understanding.

arrogance... i suspect degrades all three: love, fear, and purity.

 

[LuisDantas]

Do you see fear as a virtue, @DustyFeet ? May you elaborate on that, please?

 

[Milton Platt]

God is reality. Just one of many terms for it.

That is a useless concept.

 

[Milton Platt]

For many theists, their belief in God is based on all of reality being evidence for the existence of God. Forget science. Forget scientific method. Theists are not concerned with devices used to take simple measurements of reality. Theists are only concerned with measuring everything all at once in one breath. Theists are mostly concerned with talking about one single measurement. And that one single measurement is an appreciation of everything in reality. There is nothing objective about how we feel about reality. There is no device we can use to measure our feelings about reality. Either we appreciate reality as being something profound and meaningful, or, we do not. For people who appreciate reality as being deeply profound and meaningful in their life, the measure of all reality can only be accurately and completely represented by one and only one word. And that word is God. Any other words we used to represent reality, whether it is sets of mathematics or waxing poetics, all fall short and are incomplete representations of something always beyond simple representations. Reality is always much bigger than any words we use to talk about it. God is the only word with the representational power to accurately reflect the meaning behind the most deeply profound experience some theists have when they experience reality. So for theist, God not only exists, because reality exists, but God is the only fully meaningful explanation for what we experience as reality.

Which god and why?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is a useless concept.

If you unspiritualize it, it makes sense. It just describes life sacredness of life and gratitude of it. God is the sacredness of life. God means gratitude and love because that is how I feel when I am in tuned with myself, others, and my environment.

It's very clear cut.

 

[DustyFeet]

Do you see fear as a virtue, @DustyFeet ? May you elaborate on that, please?

Rereading my last 2 posts, may i put two qualifiers on what i said, then on to "fear", which I hope is an easy one.

1st, im a Jew, speaking about Jewish prayer. I don't know anything about how its supposed to work for anyone else. Non-jews, especially Christians, i think may have some advantages when it comes to ... divine access, for lack of better words. And honestly, i didnt grow up with daily prayer, so i am continuing to refine my understanding and my practice everyday. 2nd I'm a man, and every source in my collection is written using the male pronoun. To me this is a reminder, any limits or restrictions im presenting are directed to men. I cannot claim any knowledge about women, how they operate spiritually or otherwise. The few sources that i remember speaking about jewish women seem to put them closer to holiness than men and again this would diminish any limitations or pitfalls relating to love, fear, arrogance, etc. Just saying...

Whew...

Fear... as a virtue... respect, restraint

What I think about preparing to pray to cultivate healthy constructive fear:
Something like this
"G-d, i trust u. This isn't for me, this is for u. Whatever happens next, its for the best."

And then I just get on with it. If I go too deep, i start to hope for some kind of reward. I'm trying to restrain that feeling before I pray.

Edit: this is prayer from a prayer book not improvisational prayer, or prayers for healing

 

[dfnj]

Saudi Arabia is HERE.

I just hate the Middle East. People have been killing each other there for thousands of years over BS. It's never going to stop. I'm just sick of it. The people there are just a bunch of violent war mongering a holes. Personally, I'm looking for a new religion that has nothing to do with Middle East.

 

[dfnj]

That is a useless concept.

Reality is very useful.

 

[dfnj]

Which god and why?

The one true God. God is considered to he one true God because people use the word God to mean every possible thought or experience that has ever occurred or will ever occur. God is the alpha and omega of words. No other word is a representation of every possible word. That is why there is only one true God.

The point of the thread is the claim for theists reality is evidence for the existence of God. There is only one measurement theists make to confirm their belief. It is their experience of time. Reality is proof of God's existence in their minds.