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Featured Is all of existence proof of God's existence?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by dfnj, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    For many theists, their belief in God is based on all of reality being evidence for the existence of God. Forget science. Forget scientific method. Theists are not concerned with devices used to take simple measurements of reality. Theists are only concerned with measuring everything all at once in one breath. Theists are mostly concerned with talking about one single measurement. And that one single measurement is an appreciation of everything in reality. There is nothing objective about how we feel about reality. There is no device we can use to measure our feelings about reality. Either we appreciate reality as being something profound and meaningful, or, we do not. For people who appreciate reality as being deeply profound and meaningful in their life, the measure of all reality can only be accurately and completely represented by one and only one word. And that word is God. Any other words we used to represent reality, whether it is sets of mathematics or waxing poetics, all fall short and are incomplete representations of something always beyond simple representations. Reality is always much bigger than any words we use to talk about it. God is the only word with the representational power to accurately reflect the meaning behind the most deeply profound experience some theists have when they experience reality. So for theist, God not only exists, because reality exists, but God is the only fully meaningful explanation for what we experience as reality.
     
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  2. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    No.
     
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  3. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    and none believers have belief only those things they CAN measure

    God and spirit cannot be measured
    all you CAN do is think about it
     
  4. Woberts

    Woberts The Perfumed Seneschal

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    Why stop at God? Why not include Cthulhu, and Yog-Sothoth?
    What about Azathoth, whose dreams are our reality?
     
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  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    God is reality. Just one of many terms for it.
     
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Think it into existence?
     
  7. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    nay......think about it

    and the creation existed before your thought and feeling

    it will exist long after you are gone

    Spirit however....might prove eternal

    but again....you have to think about it
     
  8. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    indeed.....and it is written....
    ye ARE gods

    I wanna join up
    but I have to be sure of my mind and heart.....first
     
  9. DustyFeet

    DustyFeet पैर है| outlaw kosher care-bear | Tribe of Dan

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    current working theory on the rules of material vs. spiritual:


    "things" in the material world are:
    measurable
    predictable
    degrade over time

    "things" in the spiritual world are:
    not measurable
    unpredictable
    do not always degrade over time

    approaching spiritual phenomenon from a material perspective... not productive

    IMHO no offense intended please forgive me and all that and a bag of honey mustard pretzels :)

    examples of material "things"
    a chair
    my lunch
    toenails

    examples of spiritual "things"
    trust ( aka **faith** )
    love
    fear
    understanding
    knowledge
    gratitude
    happiness
    justice
    fairness
    friendship
    restraint
    modesty
    commitment
    beauty

    virtually all the most important "things"
    the "things" we all chase
    the "things" we love about movies, books, and poetry
    the "things" we appreciate in each other

    all spiritual... not measured in one breath

    science operates in the material world via natural laws
    these laws are exploited via technology
    behold the internet
    science works because the material world is predictable
    behold the scientific method

    i propose that the scientific method renders unpredictable results when attempting to study and "understand" spiritual phenomenon

    with much love and great respect,

    -DF-

    edit: added **faith** to list
     
    #9 DustyFeet, Nov 26, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
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  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    No. So circular an argument it bites you in the butt.

    Forget science, forget the scientific method?!?!?! This further depletes your argument to zero.
     
  11. DustyFeet

    DustyFeet पैर है| outlaw kosher care-bear | Tribe of Dan

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    help me understand... please?
     
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  12. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    It's circular because it violates his most basic assumptions about reality.
     
  13. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    I accept your choice as your choice. Nihilism is very popular nowadays.
     
  14. DustyFeet

    DustyFeet पैर है| outlaw kosher care-bear | Tribe of Dan

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    ... i'm still confused ...

    but you don't have to explain it
     
  15. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    I can't explain it either.
     
  16. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    I am not sure I could add much, but maybe . . .

    The nature of our physical existence is as it it is, and yes it reflects the attributes of God, but not our own justification for God. The question from the human perspective is, of course, which God do want to justify as existing based on the nature of our physical existence from the human perspective?

    Science and the scientific method is how humanity understands Creation and the attributes of God in our physical existence, but it is not how nor the why we believe in God. The problem with Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is they are grounded in ancient scripture, the culture of different religions, and ancient concepts of God, ie Genesis, not compatible with science, and the nature of our physical existence as it is.
     
    #16 shunyadragon, Nov 26, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    But how does it exist outside your thoughts? You can claim it does, but if it is true, like I said, you would have to think into existence.

    But even thinking about it doesnt make it true
     
  18. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    all of reality exists outside my thoughts

    the sun will rise tomorrow

    I might not.....I'm getting old

    but the sun will come up.....with or without me

    Does God exist....yeah I THINK so

    and does that reality need the nod of my head?......no
     
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Take the sun rise. It exist outside you but it is not god. Unless you are a pantheist, it isn't god. Saying it is creation does not make it so. There is nothing in the sun rising that points to a creator without your thought in the matter. Our perceptions and ways of life develop as we age.

    If you had no preknowledge, culture influence, assumptions based on healthy bias, and/or believing what you are told, our concept and origin of the "explanation of reality " (In this case god) is all from your mind.
     
  20. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    science!.....as I point my index to the ceiling

    cause and effect is an absolute.....so I believe
    and science is thought play without that foundation

    so....the sun as creation?.....yeah
    and substance as dead material does not beget more of the same

    science would have you believe.....and I do....
    ALL of this reality came from one location

    and nothing moves without Something to set it into motion

    can I explain to you the act of creation?......not yet
    I will be asking God.....How did you do that?

    if my frame of mind and heart display the ability to receive....
    then maybe I will fulfill that scripture....
    ye ARE gods
     
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