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Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Not sure what you mean by that, Tony. Are you saying these folks are going to hell? Since Baha'i' incorporate Christian doctrine, is that what you mean? I can never understand Baha'i'speak. The Law? Capitalised for effect. Just what is this Law?
     
  2. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    At least we are agreed that the Baha'i faith is a religion and membership is voluntary lol.

    Your claims that the Baha'i faith are Orwellian and a dictatorship appear unsubstantiated.

    Your argument is based on a letter from the Universal House of Justice 50 years ago that was probably addressing is the United States of America National Assembly during the Vietnam war. This war was a moral dilemma not just for the Baha'is but many others too. Baha'is were discouraged from participating in that war but provided guidance in the event that they were compulsorily required to participate under the laws of the country related to compulsory conscription. So I can't see how that is Orwellian. Pragmatic and sensible, yes. Dictatorial, no.
     
  3. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Even if Majority of the world become Baha'is, the Baha'is are to treat the minority equally, having the same rights as Baha'is. That is for sure, as there is nothing in Baha'i Writings that suggests otherwise. It is undeniable that Baha'i Faith is a peaceful Religion, as clearly can be seen from its Scriptures. The Houses of Justice will follow the Baha'i Scriptures.
     
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  4. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Nadie nunca oh greatest scotsman!
     
  5. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I don't see how there can be a problem with the validity the New Zealand Census. Rates of participation are high and every citizen is legally obliged to participate. There is an opt out clause when asked about religion. Participants needed to write in the word Baha'i as it wasn't included in the list of religions...So no problem with the sample size and validity. A better question is to what extent the results are comparable to other countries. Certainly there are countries that have a poorly run census. Canada, Australia, USA, and New Zealand are not amongst them.

    I think you are.

    Proselytising is a very pejorative word laden with emotion and practices that don't apply to the Baha'i faith.

    We seem to be having quite a few statements being made about the Baha'i Faith that are highly subjective opinions, like the claim that the Baha'i faith will die out in a few generations. I thought I'd add some facts to the discussion. Is that a problem?
     
    #12625 adrian009, Oct 24, 2017
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  6. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Baha'i Scriptures emphasize on Justice and Order. To establish Justice and order in the world, we need Laws. Most people agree with this. The question is who gets to define the Laws? Baha'is believe Manifestations of God, reveal new Laws in each age.
     
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  7. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    You didn't read what I wrote, I made no claims about New Zealand's census accuracy. All I said was that it's a small sample size for the world. At 4.7 million compared to 7 billion, it's substantially less that 1/1000 of the world's population. In other words, statistically insignificant. If you want to argue that, go ahead.

    Proselytizing is a well defined word, not pejorative at all. The Mormon church, for example, uses it accurately to describe their missionary activities. If it was pejorative, I don't think they'd be using it. Of course it applies to the Baha'i' faith. Not by baha'i' themselves, but from any outside POV, yes.

    Definition of PROSELYTIZE

    Pioneering (Bahá'í) - Wikipedia

    The Talisman Crackdown: Faith vs. Free Expression in the Internet Age
     
    #12627 Vinayaka, Oct 24, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    Baha'u'llah also says it is better to be killed than kill.

    Again it is a personal choice we have to make.

    We ask for non combatant roles.

    If ordered to service and we are ordered to engage the enemy we would not consider our safety, we would be the best shot for our mates.

    God knows our hearts, as God knows your intent to keep posting here.

    Regards Tony
     
  9. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I did actually, but what you are saying is clearer to me now. The links you provided about Baha'i statistics were constructive and highlighted the difficulties so thank you or that.

    That's good for the Mormons, but I wouldn't adopt their standards.

    In regards proselytizing

    The World Council of Churches in The Challenge of Proselytism and the Calling to Common Witness states the following:

    • making unjust or uncharitable references to other churches’ beliefs and practices and even ridiculing them;
    • comparing two Christian communities by emphasizing the achievements and ideals of one, and the weaknesses and practical problems of the other;
    • employing any kind of physical violence, moral compulsion and psychological pressure e.g. the use of certain advertising techniques in mass media that might bring undue pressure on readers/viewers;
    • using political, social and economic power as a means of winning new members for one’s own church;
    • extending explicit or implicit offers of education, health care or material inducements or using financial resources with the intent of making converts;
    • manipulative attitudes and practices that exploit people’s needs, weaknesses or lack of education especially in situations of distress, and fail to respect their freedom and human dignity.
    Proselytism - Wikipedia

    That includes practices Baha'is would eschew.

    How about the first two, if we substituted the word church for religion?

    • making unjust or uncharitable references to other religious’ beliefs and practices and even ridiculing them;
    • comparing two religious communities by emphasizing the achievements and ideals of one, and the weaknesses and practical problems of the other
    Are these examples of proselytizing for you?
     
  10. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I think they probably are, and certainly my faith has been portrayed unjustly, and that's partially why I'm on this thread at all.

    As for point 2, there has been an underlying 'us versus them' attitude all along. Not from you personally as much, but that just highlights how we can't generalise about the attitudes of all the adherents of any faith. Not sure if that's proselytising or just honesty about why you are what you are, in regards to faith. obviously, one should think his faith is best for him personally.

    I have been told I'm walking away from God, and that I'm spiritually blind. So I suppose that's comparing faiths, no? Can assume that Baha'i's believe if I was a Baha'i' I would be walking with God and I wouldn't be spiritually blind.
     
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  11. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Hi Carlita, You are so right on when you said, "Instead of saying you believe in the bible, maybe say you believe in Bahaullah's interpretation of it." The Baha'i deny Jesus rose from the dead, even though it is presented as part of the many things that happened. They were reporting on the things Jesus did. But the same thing with the healings. It is easy for them to say that he restored spiritual sight to the spiritually blind. Or brought spiritual life to the spiritually dead. But here's an example where Jesus is said to have restored the spiritual healing and physical healing to a man.

    Mark 2:1-12New International Version (NIV)
    Jesus Forgives and Heals a Paralyzed Man
    2 A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2 They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3 Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

    6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

    8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11 “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 12 He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

    I don't know how they can make this only a "spiritual" healing. Plus, the story has Jesus doing something that only God had the authority to do, forgive sins.
     
  12. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    How many businesses and products would there be in a Baha'is world? Would gold and diamonds be all that valuable to spiritualized people? With the Baha'i focus on bettering and educating people, who would do the hard labor? If they aren't going to make millions, who want to be running large companies? If they can't exploit 3rd world countries for resources, how will industries get their raw materials at low cost? Anyway, I'm sure Baha'is will figure it out.
     
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  13. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Is covenant breaking grounds for a divorce?
     
  14. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    If any Baha'is voted for Trump, they shouldn't be allowed to vote. But, I don't know much about it, but I was told that the Baha'i got in trouble in Iran for supporting the Shah.
     
  15. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    That's ultimate friendliness. Imagine if you were traveling to some city, but going the wrong way. When a kindly Baha'i told how miserably lost and stupid you are and pointed you in the right direction.
     
  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Yes. Spiritual and literal are interconnected. In Christian view, spiritual is literal. I mean, why would you believe something you didn't believe is a fact. If we know non-religious truths are facts why not religious? I honestly don't understand the schism between fact and fiction (sorry, fact and belief-reading a fiction book) to those religions who know god exist compared to those who believe it.

    Jesus always said to the disciples they needed faith in his father to do the works that he (christ) does. So, if jesus didn't wake the dead, then the disciples wouldn't know what faith in the father meant. Jesus can talk all day long but without showing the miracles James 2:22 "You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did." Another reason that Christians are told to help others and serve others.

    It's not Bahai beliefs in and of itself. For me, it's about expression and understanding. For example, a Christian can say he and a Hindu believe in god. As soon as one of them says "the same" there is a problem.

    Words have power not just actions. :confused: The other thing is there are so many Bahai viewpoints that I don't know what Bahai believe as a whole. I mean, I read the bible as a kid. I went to church by my own initiative. That means nothing. I'm more of a body-of-christ babe. If the Sangha is mixed so are the messages. It's not Bahai fault just the nature of the forum and our differing backgrounds.
     
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  17. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Yes, so what do you do with "1000 years"? Do you change it to days and then back to years or leave it as literally 1000 years? Oh, by the way, the 1000 years I'm talking about is in the Book of Revelation. So which is it?
     
  18. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    So what happened to the return of Christ bringing peace? I thought God was going to take control? Are we going to make spears into pruning hooks? Or instead taking farm implements and go around stabbing each other with sheep shears and shovels? Or will we still be able to get weapons to more easily kill each other when our neighbors upset us? 'Cause if you leave it to humanity, peace definitely won't happen.
     
  19. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    So who did Baha'is in the US vote for Hillary or Trump or neither?
     
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Proselytize: Speak to convert
    "Come to my church so you can be saved"

    Evangelize: Speak to convince
    "If you know more about salvation, you can be saved too."

    Debate: Speak to prove oneself right
    "You can only be saved by being born again: here is scripture to prove it"

    Argue: Speak to prove the other wrong
    "The bible says you need faith to believe not works"

    Discuss: Speak with each other
    X: "What does christianity teach? .... That's cool."
    Y: "What does Jainism teach?.... Wow."
    X: "Yes, we are taught this..."
    Y: "Neato! We are taught something else..."
    X: "Wow."
    Y: You know, I don't understand what you meant by this
    X: I disagree when you said that

    And so forth.

    :oops:
     
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