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How are these Great Beings explained?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
There is the lawful path and those that choose not to follow it to the extent they have choosen and the result given under that Law. It also means they have no heeded the advice given.

Each case is between them and the Law.

Not sure what you mean by that, Tony. Are you saying these folks are going to hell? Since Baha'i' incorporate Christian doctrine, is that what you mean? I can never understand Baha'i'speak. The Law? Capitalised for effect. Just what is this Law?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Easy!
1. Orwellian, YES. I base that upon the number of tenets that incorporate 'Double-Think'.
2. Orwellian, YES. I base that upon the lack of freedom that Bahais have to express themselves in published print, in as much as all documents or books for publication must first be approved by Bahai authorities.
3. Dictatorial, YES. The laws, guides and regs for Bahais are written, rather than dictated, but even so Bahais are required to obey a long list of rules and laws.
4. Religion. Yes.

Voluntary Membership. YES. But, so what?

I hate long posts, so let's just give one example for number 1 'Orwellian Double-Think' just to get going.

Ask an average Bahai if s/he could join a military or law enforcemrent service as a combatant and most will reply 'No!'
Now read this letter from the UHJ to a National Spiritual Assembly:-
-----------------------------------------------------
"Bahá'ís recognize the right and duty of governments to use force for the maintenance of law and order and to protect their people. Thus, for a Bahá'í, the shedding of blood for such a purpose is not necessarily essentially wrong.
Deleted irrelevant para..........
In the present condition of the world Bahá'ís try to keep themselves out of the internecine conflicts that are raging among their fellow men and to avoid shedding blood in such struggles, but this does not mean that we are absolute pacifists.

Letter from the Universal House of Justice, dated February 9, 1967, to a National Spiritual Assembly
----------------------------------------------

I don't go out of my way to post this stuff, only when I'm challenged, but the posts which Orwellian Double Think could go on quite a way.....

At least we are agreed that the Baha'i faith is a religion and membership is voluntary lol.

Your claims that the Baha'i faith are Orwellian and a dictatorship appear unsubstantiated.

Your argument is based on a letter from the Universal House of Justice 50 years ago that was probably addressing is the United States of America National Assembly during the Vietnam war. This war was a moral dilemma not just for the Baha'is but many others too. Baha'is were discouraged from participating in that war but provided guidance in the event that they were compulsorily required to participate under the laws of the country related to compulsory conscription. So I can't see how that is Orwellian. Pragmatic and sensible, yes. Dictatorial, no.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I should not have to. You should have this deepset into your heart, soul and mind, so please don't send me away to harvest many many writings which you then will put to one side, I'm guessing?
After all, I am a Deist.
But Bahauallah wrote of Local, National and a Universal Houses of Justice, with guidances, controls, laws, and enforcements. His plane was for a Bahai World with a Bahai Government. He set out a theocracy.
And more recently I have discovered that his plan is predestined, and if human nature grabs hold of that as has happened in some Christian Creeds then a whole class system can be built to separate Bahai from 'the others'.
The western World, for all of its horrible failures, could not be worse than a Bahai World with its fundamentalist policies, beliefs and enforcements.

But the Western World is leaving Bahai far behind, with Equality Laws which stretch far beyond Bahauallah's.
To me, Bahai seems as if out-of-date already, only a couple of centuries into its plan.
Even if Majority of the world become Baha'is, the Baha'is are to treat the minority equally, having the same rights as Baha'is. That is for sure, as there is nothing in Baha'i Writings that suggests otherwise. It is undeniable that Baha'i Faith is a peaceful Religion, as clearly can be seen from its Scriptures. The Houses of Justice will follow the Baha'i Scriptures.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Again, New Zealand is a small country, too small of a sample to be valid. World wide, most sites cite the total to be around 5 million, and that hasn't changed significantly since 1991.

I don't see how there can be a problem with the validity the New Zealand Census. Rates of participation are high and every citizen is legally obliged to participate. There is an opt out clause when asked about religion. Participants needed to write in the word Baha'i as it wasn't included in the list of religions...So no problem with the sample size and validity. A better question is to what extent the results are comparable to other countries. Certainly there are countries that have a poorly run census. Canada, Australia, USA, and New Zealand are not amongst them.

Of course I could be wrong.

I think you are.

It is quite predictable that there would be growth for proseltysing religions.

Proselytising is a very pejorative word laden with emotion and practices that don't apply to the Baha'i faith.

I can certainly understand that if a young pioneer couple heads off to some place where there is no Baha'i, people are disillusioned with Christianity, that the Baha'i' population there could triple in a matter of months.

(I actually don't understand why growth seems so important to people on this thread. It seems to be wired into the teachings, like economic growth is wired into capitalism.)

We seem to be having quite a few statements being made about the Baha'i Faith that are highly subjective opinions, like the claim that the Baha'i faith will die out in a few generations. I thought I'd add some facts to the discussion. Is that a problem?
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Tell you what......... if you are prepared to put into writing thatr you never ever heard of, read about or knew about Bahauallah's local, national and universal houses of justice, his rules for a bahai only voting system, his guidances, controls, laws, enforcement and government plans, then I will undertake to teach you about them.


Fair enough?
Baha'i Scriptures emphasize on Justice and Order. To establish Justice and order in the world, we need Laws. Most people agree with this. The question is who gets to define the Laws? Baha'is believe Manifestations of God, reveal new Laws in each age.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I don't see how there can be a problem with the validity the New Zealand Census. Rates of participation are high and every citizen is legally obliged to participate. There is an opt out clause when asked about religion. Participants needed to write in the word Baha'i as it wasn't included in the list of religions...So no problem with the sample size and validity. A better question is to what extent the results are comparable to other countries. Certainly there are countries that have a poorly run census. Canada, Australia, USA, and New Zealand are not amongst them.

Proselytising is a very pejorative word laden with emotion and practices that don't apply to the Baha'i faith.

You didn't read what I wrote, I made no claims about New Zealand's census accuracy. All I said was that it's a small sample size for the world. At 4.7 million compared to 7 billion, it's substantially less that 1/1000 of the world's population. In other words, statistically insignificant. If you want to argue that, go ahead.

Proselytizing is a well defined word, not pejorative at all. The Mormon church, for example, uses it accurately to describe their missionary activities. If it was pejorative, I don't think they'd be using it. Of course it applies to the Baha'i' faith. Not by baha'i' themselves, but from any outside POV, yes.

Definition of PROSELYTIZE

Pioneering (Bahá'í) - Wikipedia

The Talisman Crackdown: Faith vs. Free Expression in the Internet Age
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Easy!
1. Orwellian, YES. I base that upon the number of tenets that incorporate 'Double-Think'.
2. Orwellian, YES. I base that upon the lack of freedom that Bahais have to express themselves in published print, in as much as all documents or books for publication must first be approved by Bahai authorities.
3. Dictatorial, YES. The laws, guides and regs for Bahais are written, rather than dictated, but even so Bahais are required to obey a long list of rules and laws.
4. Religion. Yes.

Voluntary Membership. YES. But, so what?

I hate long posts, so let's just give one example for number 1 'Orwellian Double-Think' just to get going.

Ask an average Bahai if s/he could join a military or law enforcemrent service as a combatant and most will reply 'No!'
Now read this letter from the UHJ to a National Spiritual Assembly:-
-----------------------------------------------------
"Bahá'ís recognize the right and duty of governments to use force for the maintenance of law and order and to protect their people. Thus, for a Bahá'í, the shedding of blood for such a purpose is not necessarily essentially wrong.
Deleted irrelevant para..........
In the present condition of the world Bahá'ís try to keep themselves out of the internecine conflicts that are raging among their fellow men and to avoid shedding blood in such struggles, but this does not mean that we are absolute pacifists.

Letter from the Universal House of Justice, dated February 9, 1967, to a National Spiritual Assembly
----------------------------------------------

I don't go out of my way to post this stuff, only when I'm challenged, but the posts which Orwellian Double Think could go on quite a way.....

Baha'u'llah also says it is better to be killed than kill.

Again it is a personal choice we have to make.

We ask for non combatant roles.

If ordered to service and we are ordered to engage the enemy we would not consider our safety, we would be the best shot for our mates.

God knows our hearts, as God knows your intent to keep posting here.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
You didn't read what I wrote, I made no claims about New Zealand's census accuracy. All I said was that it's a small sample size for the world. At 4.7 million compared to 7 billion, it's substantially less that 1/1000 of the world's population. In other words, statistically insignificant. If you want to argue that, go ahead.

I did actually, but what you are saying is clearer to me now. The links you provided about Baha'i statistics were constructive and highlighted the difficulties so thank you or that.

Proselytizing is a well defined word, not pejorative at all. The Mormon church, for example, uses it accurately to describe their missionary activities. If it was pejorative, I don't think they'd be using it if it was. Of course it applies to the Baha'i' faith. Not by baha'i' themselves, but from any outside POV, yes.

Definition of PROSELYTIZE

That's good for the Mormons, but I wouldn't adopt their standards.

In regards proselytizing

The World Council of Churches in The Challenge of Proselytism and the Calling to Common Witness states the following:

  • making unjust or uncharitable references to other churches’ beliefs and practices and even ridiculing them;
  • comparing two Christian communities by emphasizing the achievements and ideals of one, and the weaknesses and practical problems of the other;
  • employing any kind of physical violence, moral compulsion and psychological pressure e.g. the use of certain advertising techniques in mass media that might bring undue pressure on readers/viewers;
  • using political, social and economic power as a means of winning new members for one’s own church;
  • extending explicit or implicit offers of education, health care or material inducements or using financial resources with the intent of making converts;
  • manipulative attitudes and practices that exploit people’s needs, weaknesses or lack of education especially in situations of distress, and fail to respect their freedom and human dignity.
Proselytism - Wikipedia

That includes practices Baha'is would eschew.

How about the first two, if we substituted the word church for religion?

  • making unjust or uncharitable references to other religious’ beliefs and practices and even ridiculing them;
  • comparing two religious communities by emphasizing the achievements and ideals of one, and the weaknesses and practical problems of the other
Are these examples of proselytizing for you?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
  • making unjust or uncharitable references to other religious’ beliefs and practices and even ridiculing them;
  • comparing two religious communities by emphasizing the achievements and ideals of one, and the weaknesses and practical problems of the other
Are these examples of proselytizing?

I think they probably are, and certainly my faith has been portrayed unjustly, and that's partially why I'm on this thread at all.

As for point 2, there has been an underlying 'us versus them' attitude all along. Not from you personally as much, but that just highlights how we can't generalise about the attitudes of all the adherents of any faith. Not sure if that's proselytising or just honesty about why you are what you are, in regards to faith. obviously, one should think his faith is best for him personally.

I have been told I'm walking away from God, and that I'm spiritually blind. So I suppose that's comparing faiths, no? Can assume that Baha'i's believe if I was a Baha'i' I would be walking with God and I wouldn't be spiritually blind.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
This is a clear cut and good information to know about Bahai; and, all the things Bahai disagree with are the cornerstones of the christian faith.

1. Christian's view of god is dependent on the divinity of christ not the other way around. If both of you believed in the same god, the same gospels, and the same message from the apostles whether they wrote it or not, I'd hope you'd take it as written from the bible not an interpretation of it. (Two messages from the same god doesn't make sense.)

2. Without Christ's atonement, there is no christian faith. Whether sins are inherited or the temptation is inherited, like in the OT, there needs to be some blood atonement for the forgiveness of sins. That's why you have wine as blood and bread as body. It's the sacrifice (blood) and life (mana/bread) of christ. Once you deviate from the atonement belief, it is no longer christian.

3. Forgiveness of sins through jesus is a must. If OT says animals can cover sins of god's chosen people with the jews, why say the blood of a human cannot be the final atonement thus forgiveness of sins in the NT. Forgiveness of sins is one of the central themes of the bible. That, and in christian view, why forgive others if you don't believe christ forgave you-if you are saying you believe in christian beliefs.

4. The sinful nature of mankind whether it's temptation to sin or inherited sin, this is a central theme in the bible too. Without sin or inherited temptation from sin, there'd be no need to believe in christ nor say one is saved. What christians do for others is a reflection of what christ did for them not separate from it.

5. The resurrection is a huge part of all denominations of the christian faith. Given you don't believe in atonement and nature of sin, I can see why you don't believe in the resurrection. However, it is not just spiritual but spiritual and literal go together in the christian faith. Once you depart the literal from the spiritual, you can believe in anything and call yourself spiritual but not religious. No one would need to be christian, or bahai for that matter, if some christians and bahai believe that god/creator cannot raise the dead. Somewhat like putting in god's mouth what he can and cannot do-from a christian point of view.

6. The triune nature of the godhead is also a cornerstone of the christian faith. Maybe it's you disagree with The Church's interpretation of it? Regardless the interpretation, you need to believe in the divinity of jesus and his literal role in salvation in order to see how the father/creator, son, and holy spirit are one with differing roles. People fuss over the definitions. I disagree with the trinity but the relationship with all three are in scripture no matter how we both interpret it.

7. This is all of christianity in a nutshell. But you need to know about forgiveness of sins and the divinity of christ to understand reconciliation from god and redemption/resurrection.

8. One Catholic on here told me that lucifer is a personification of evil. Maybe Bahai disagrees with denominational interpretations of these things but they are still extremely and literally important despite that. If you don't believe in evil, of course you wouldn't find a reason to be redeemed and saved. Yet, the "right/wrong" is a part of the christian faith. If Bahai believed in Lucifer/personified evil then they may find the need to be saved. It's a huge part of the christian faith. Without lucifer, no salvation.

9. Oh my gosh. The miracles of jesus is totally needed in the christian faith in order to believe in christ and the gospels. You no longer believe in the gospels as written when you take away christ's miracles. For example, if jesus did not raise the dead (his father rose the dead through jesus' faith in him), no one would have faith that there is a resurrection. So, giving the dead life is not only symbolic but the literal story needed in order for the disciples to "see" the works of christ not just hear him say it's all symbolism. Also, on that note, christ would not need to come if we stripped him of his divinity, role, miracles, and symbolized his teachings and kept general nature of his teachings that many religions share but are not the core of that faith.

10. If jesus doesn't return, then christian's faith in salvation would be moot.

11. I think Shoel is a Catholic teaching. Not many people like Catholics though they put the bible together. I'd assume they'd have more knowledge of the originals than those who broke off from them. (Telephone game)

12. What does Bahai believe differently about the OT prophets?

Instead of saying you believe in the bible, maybe say you believe in Bahaullah's interpretation of it. Differentiate yourself from saying you're a bahai christian to a Bahai who has some adopted christian beliefs.
Hi Carlita, You are so right on when you said, "Instead of saying you believe in the bible, maybe say you believe in Bahaullah's interpretation of it." The Baha'i deny Jesus rose from the dead, even though it is presented as part of the many things that happened. They were reporting on the things Jesus did. But the same thing with the healings. It is easy for them to say that he restored spiritual sight to the spiritually blind. Or brought spiritual life to the spiritually dead. But here's an example where Jesus is said to have restored the spiritual healing and physical healing to a man.

Mark 2:1-12New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Forgives and Heals a Paralyzed Man
2 A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2 They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3 Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11 “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 12 He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

I don't know how they can make this only a "spiritual" healing. Plus, the story has Jesus doing something that only God had the authority to do, forgive sins.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Indeed - but you didn't answer the question - I asked what a Baha'i economy would look like - you gave me links that talk about a just system of government. Of course the Baha'i administration doesn't have an economy such as the nations of the world currently have or the global "promised land" would need to have. How would that work? You say you dislike communism but how else could a single global economic entity function? There would be no place (presumably) for the free market - there would be no market at all except that by which each human obtained what they needed. So what? Would the shrewdest marketeers be allowed to amass personal wealth? What would stop them? And what would stop groups of the wealthy conglomerating in order to maximize their collective economic success? Of course they could only achieve wealth by maximizing profit which also minimizes the value of the financial resources of the less well-heeled - how would a united world economy prevent the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer (by comparison)? If it cannot then you have a capitalist system - and if it does then you have a communist one because there is no way that it is "just" for the children of a wealthy man to have plenty whilst the children of a poor man go hungry - regardless of the reason for the disparity. So which is it? Is a Baha'i economy capitalist or communist?
How many businesses and products would there be in a Baha'is world? Would gold and diamonds be all that valuable to spiritualized people? With the Baha'i focus on bettering and educating people, who would do the hard labor? If they aren't going to make millions, who want to be running large companies? If they can't exploit 3rd world countries for resources, how will industries get their raw materials at low cost? Anyway, I'm sure Baha'is will figure it out.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
So the plan is that everyone becomes Baha'i', they all stop voting or participating in elections, and government, and then Baha'i' takes over by default. Is that it?
If any Baha'is voted for Trump, they shouldn't be allowed to vote. But, I don't know much about it, but I was told that the Baha'i got in trouble in Iran for supporting the Shah.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
What's so friendly about telling people of other faiths they have it all wrong? Doesn't seem that friendly to me.
That's ultimate friendliness. Imagine if you were traveling to some city, but going the wrong way. When a kindly Baha'i told how miserably lost and stupid you are and pointed you in the right direction.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Hi Carlita, You are so right on when you said, "Instead of saying you believe in the bible, maybe say you believe in Bahaullah's interpretation of it." The Baha'i deny Jesus rose from the dead, even though it is presented as part of the many things that happened. They were reporting on the things Jesus did. But the same thing with the healings. It is easy for them to say that he restored spiritual sight to the spiritually blind. Or brought spiritual life to the spiritually dead. But here's an example where Jesus is said to have restored the spiritual healing and physical healing to a man.

Mark 2:1-12New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Forgives and Heals a Paralyzed Man
2 A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2 They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3 Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11 “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 12 He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

I don't know how they can make this only a "spiritual" healing. Plus, the story has Jesus doing something that only God had the authority to do, forgive sins.

Yes. Spiritual and literal are interconnected. In Christian view, spiritual is literal. I mean, why would you believe something you didn't believe is a fact. If we know non-religious truths are facts why not religious? I honestly don't understand the schism between fact and fiction (sorry, fact and belief-reading a fiction book) to those religions who know god exist compared to those who believe it.

Jesus always said to the disciples they needed faith in his father to do the works that he (christ) does. So, if jesus didn't wake the dead, then the disciples wouldn't know what faith in the father meant. Jesus can talk all day long but without showing the miracles James 2:22 "You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did." Another reason that Christians are told to help others and serve others.

It's not Bahai beliefs in and of itself. For me, it's about expression and understanding. For example, a Christian can say he and a Hindu believe in god. As soon as one of them says "the same" there is a problem.

Words have power not just actions. :confused: The other thing is there are so many Bahai viewpoints that I don't know what Bahai believe as a whole. I mean, I read the bible as a kid. I went to church by my own initiative. That means nothing. I'm more of a body-of-christ babe. If the Sangha is mixed so are the messages. It's not Bahai fault just the nature of the forum and our differing backgrounds.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
More correct term based on Scriptures is 'a day of God'. It can be counted as a year or as a 1000 year. There is no such a term in Scriptures as 'prophetic' day or year.
Yes, so what do you do with "1000 years"? Do you change it to days and then back to years or leave it as literally 1000 years? Oh, by the way, the 1000 years I'm talking about is in the Book of Revelation. So which is it?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
They would be Administering to the Baha'is. I see the worlds Governments would be most likely asking advice from the Universal House of Justice in the distant future.

Baha'u'llah has said mankinds perversity will long Continue, humanity is not yet ready to submit fully to God and His Laws.

Thus Humanity will continue with Mans rule and God also has allowed this to be so. A time will come when Just Monarchs will return, I see they will work with Just Governments.

We missed the boat of the Most Great Peace. An era of Lesser Peace is now required and is the next goal as we find our Unity. This Lesser Peace will be Governed by a Gathering of Elected representitives of each Nation.

It may be that the Baha'is will have representation on this Body.

Regards Tony
So what happened to the return of Christ bringing peace? I thought God was going to take control? Are we going to make spears into pruning hooks? Or instead taking farm implements and go around stabbing each other with sheep shears and shovels? Or will we still be able to get weapons to more easily kill each other when our neighbors upset us? 'Cause if you leave it to humanity, peace definitely won't happen.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Proselytize: Speak to convert
"Come to my church so you can be saved"

Evangelize: Speak to convince
"If you know more about salvation, you can be saved too."

Debate: Speak to prove oneself right
"You can only be saved by being born again: here is scripture to prove it"

Argue: Speak to prove the other wrong
"The bible says you need faith to believe not works"

Discuss: Speak with each other
X: "What does christianity teach? .... That's cool."
Y: "What does Jainism teach?.... Wow."
X: "Yes, we are taught this..."
Y: "Neato! We are taught something else..."
X: "Wow."
Y: You know, I don't understand what you meant by this
X: I disagree when you said that

And so forth.

:oops:
 
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