How are these Great Beings explained?

[CG Didymus]

Yes. You asked about two verses (Revelation 9:15-16). The response has included references to the three main divisions of Christianity as well as one of the most significant historic events and localities.



According to Pew research Islam is set to become the largest religion in the world and have more adherents than Christianity in the next 50 years or so.

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

Old Roman calendar years are meant because the prophecy is addressed to the early Christians. The Roman year was 365 days long with an extra day added every fourth or leap year. There were 97 leap years between 1453 and 1844 AD. But by the Papal Bull of 1582 AD, 10 days were removed from the calendar in 1582 and one more day was removed in 1600. Thus the number of days by the Roman calendar between 30 May 1453 and 23 May 1844 was (391)x(365)+97-10-1-7 or 142,794 days, a span of time almost exactly 391 old Roman years of 365 1/4 days. The "hour" refers to "the time of the end" and the second woe. (Revelations 3:10, 11:13, 14-7) It will commence with the fulfilment of the 391 years.

Mehmet's victory was said to have cut off (metaphorically slain) one-third of Christendom. The fall of Constantinople to Islam is one of the most significant events in both Christian and Islamic history.



How is this relevant?



An educated guess.



Do you mean1453? The Rushidum Caliphate 632-661 were superseded by the Umayyads 661 - 750 were superseded by the Abassid Caliphate 750 - 1258, succeeded by the Fatimid Caliphate 909 - 1171, Mamluk Sultanate 1250-1517, Saffarid dynasty 861- 1003, the Ottoman Empire 1299 - 1922 and of course the Mongols.

Rashidun Caliphate - Wikipedia

Umayyad Caliphate - Wikipedia

Abbasid Caliphate - Wikipedia

Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia



I think we have discussed the birth of Christ being considered to be about 6 years before 1 AD so that makes 666.



1260 being 42 (30 day) months being 1844 on the Gregorian calendar.



Abdu'l-Baha interpreted chapters 11 and 12. Anything else is unofficial.



It will be the work of scholars to examine documents that provide definitive evidence of the link between Baha'u'llah and Jesse. Maybe some of my Baha'i colleagues on this thread are aware of such work.

Abdu'l-Baha is very clear about the linkage between Baha'u'llah and Jesse.

This rod out of the stem of Jesse might be correctly applied to Christ, for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse, the father of David; but as Christ found existence through the Spirit of God, He called Himself the Son of God. If He had not done so, this description would refer to Him. Besides this, the events which he indicated as coming to pass in the days of that rod, if interpreted symbolically, were in part fulfilled in the day of Christ, but not all; and if not interpreted, then decidedly none of these signs happened. For example, the leopard and the lamb, the lion and the calf, the child and the asp, are metaphors and symbols for various nations, peoples, antagonistic sects and hostile races, who are as opposite and inimical as the wolf and lamb. We say that by the breath of the spirit of Christ they found concord and harmony, they were vivified, and they associated together.

But “they shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.” These conditions did not prevail in the time of the manifestation of Christ; for until today various and antagonistic nations exist in the world: very few acknowledge the God of Israel, and the greater number are without the knowledge of God. In the same way, universal peace did not come into existence in the time of Christ—that is to say, between the antagonistic and hostile nations there was neither peace nor concord, disputes and disagreements did not cease, and reconciliation and sincerity did not appear. So, even at this day, among the Christian sects and nations themselves, enmity, hatred and the most violent hostility are met with.

But these verses apply word for word to Bahá’u’lláh. Likewise in this marvelous cycle the earth will be transformed, and the world of humanity arrayed in tranquillity and beauty. Disputes, quarrels and murders will be replaced by peace, truth and concord; among the nations, peoples, races and countries, love and amity will appear. Cooperation and union will be established, and finally war will be entirely suppressed. When the laws of the Most Holy Book are enforced, contentions and disputes will find a final sentence of absolute justice before a general tribunal of the nations and kingdoms, and the difficulties that appear will be solved. The five continents of the world will form but one, the numerous nations will become one, the surface of the earth will become one land, and mankind will be a single community. The relations between the countries—the mingling, union and friendship of the peoples and communities—will reach to such a degree that the human race will be like one family and kindred. The light of heavenly love will shine, and the darkness of enmity and hatred will be dispelled from the world. Universal peace will raise its tent in the center of the earth, and the blessed Tree of Life will grow and spread to such an extent that it will overshadow the East and the West. Strong and weak, rich and poor, antagonistic sects and hostile nations—which are like the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and kid, the lion and the calf—will act toward each other with the most complete love, friendship, justice and equity. The world will be filled with science, with the knowledge of the reality of the mysteries of beings, and with the knowledge of God.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 62-66

So moving on... Chapter 11. It has the two witnesses doing their thing for 42 months. Verse 7 says that when they have finished their testimony, the beast kills them and the bodies sit in the street of the city where their Lord was crucified for 31/2 days. Verse 11, after the 3/12 days they come to life and a great earthquake hits that city and kills 7000 people. Verse 14... the second Woe is past. Since you've already had Muhammad and the Umayyads in chapter 9 with the first Woe, how do you come up with using them again in the events describing the second Woe? Also, as I remember, the earthquake Baha'is used was in Persian, but this says it should be the city where the Lord of the two witnesses was crucified. How can that be anywhere but Jerusalem? Anyway, I can't wait to hear what you have to say. Thanks

 

[CG Didymus]

There is no such a rule in the Scriptures, that always future event prophecies are expressed using day to year conversion.
But when the Scriptures point out to the same event, the years must be interpreted to consistently reach the same point of time.
So, for instance, where it says period of Genetiles is 1260 days, which also must be the end of 2300 days period, then the 1000 years also must point to the same year.

One of you Baha'is said that there was a rule on how to interpret days, weeks, months and years... and Baha'i have used it to change 31/2 days and 42 months and 1260 days into 1260 years. And they bounce between "solar" years to "lunar" years.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think so.
I quote Baha'u'llah:


"Say: This is the sealed and mystic Scroll, the repository of God’s irrevocable Decree, bearing the words which the Finger of Holiness hath traced, that lay wrapt within the veil of impenetrable mystery, and hath now been sent down as a token of the grace of Him Who is the Almighty, the Ancient of Days. In it have We decreed the destinies of all the dwellers of the earth and the denizens of heaven, and written down the knowledge of all things from first to last. Nothing whatsoever can escape or frustrate Him, whether created in the past or to be created in the future, could ye but perceive it."

"Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it."

Can you really start praying hard for America? I mean really hard.

 

[CG Didymus]

Lots of stuff happened in 1844. 1844 - Wikipedia

Lots of stuff happens every year.

Yes, but this is the only important thing...

"May 23 – Persian Prophet The Báb privately announces his revelation to Mullá Husayn, just after sunset, founding the Bábí faith (later evolving into the Bahá'í Faith as the Báb intended) in Shiraz, Persia (now Iran). Contemporaneously, on this day in nearby Tehran, was the birth of `Abdu'l-Bahá; the eldest Son of Bahá'u'lláh, Prophet-Founder of the Bahá'í Faith, the inception of which, the Báb's proclaimed His own mission was to herald. `Abdu'l-Bahá Himself was later proclaimed by Bahá'u'lláh to be His own successor, thus being the third "central figure" of the Bahá'í Faith.

So if you take 1260 plus 2300 divided by 3 and add 53 and then multiply that by pi, you watch, the Baha'i will come up with 1844. I don't know how they do it, but they do. Which amazes me, because everything else from the Bible, they say is not literal. Why not numbers?

 

[CG Didymus]

Interesting link ... one terse statement on how nothing is fixed in stone, and then a rather lengthy essay on why mothers should stay at home.

In my view, it's all about choice ... whatever works best for the couple, and that should be without undue coercion from outside. People who make choices against the majority feel the subtle pressure, unfairly, in my opinion. That said, we chose to have mom stay at home.

In tribal communities didn't they have aunts and grandmothers and other women help with the kids while some women went out gathering food and water and other things? And doesn't that still happen sometimes? But modern society has created the nuclear family and has pushed the extended family into being a thing of the past. I wonder if that's part of what Baha'u'llah has brought?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes. Predestination.
I never noticed that ever before.
A kind of Calvinism in Bahai.

That has to be the worst news for Bahai on this 12000+ post thread.

If it's God ordained, then that makes all the world's problems and evils exactly the way God wanted it?

So God wanted the world leaders to ignore Baha'u'llah, so we'd all go through the wars and misery?

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you think so?
I think Bahai will be about for all time now, just as there are still Druids in Britain and all manner of other religions. But the fragmentation could continue to dilute the faith, just as the thousands of Creeds have split up Christianity.

There is a tiny tiny chapel on the old city wall in Canterbury, England in the South Sou'West radius which might show if the wall is enlarged digitally. Damme but I can't remember the name, but it belongs to a millenia old order ........ my point being that religions of 7 million never die.

With all the world problems, it could very well be heading for a critical point to where the whole world asks the Baha'is to go ahead and try and fix the mess. But then, will the Baha'is be able to?

I certainly don't intend to follow all their laws? Then we'll see how nice they are to dissidents.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'is and Christians believe in the same gospels.

Here's the common ground I believe Christians and Baha'is have in common:

We believe in an Omnipotent, All-Powerful God.
God has created the universe and all that exists
God has qualities of Love and Justice
God is concerned for His creation
Man is a special part of His creation and we have been created in His image
God out of concern for His creation and humanity has guided us through Great Teachers and/or prophets
One of those Great/Teachers or Prophets (Jesus) is exalted above all humans
God expects us to make a great effort to live in accordance with His teachings and to have Faith in Jesus
The OT prophets have provided God's guidance to the Jewish peoples
The Bible has a record of Jesus, the apostles, and the OT prophets
Jesus, the apostles, and the OT prophets we guided by God's unerring spirit
The Bible should be considered authentic and authoritative
We should love God with all our being and love our neighbours and enemies as Jesus taught
We should forgive others
We should be good as God is good
We believe that we have a soul and that there is an afterlife
We believe that evil is a real problem
We believe that Christ promised He would return and spoke of the signs that would accompany His Return.
The Returned Christ will bring in a new age or era in human history.
Jesus is the 'Son of God'
'Salvation' is intimately associated with Christ.
Jesus was crucified
His sacrifice enabled our salvation
The resurrection is a concept/reality of profound significance and importance

A Christian who knows her bible extremely well who I recently had an extended interfaith discussion identified the following differences in our theologies:

We differ in:

• the divinity of Jesus
• the work of Jesus accomplished on the cross: atonement
• the forgiveness of sin through Jesus
• the sin nature of mankind
• the resurrection
• the triune nature of the Godhead
• Redemption, propitiation, justification, sanctification, adoption, reconciliation
• Lucifer
• the miracles of Jesus
• the return of Jesus: when, its purpose and what it will accomplish
• the 'age to come'
• Sheol
• the OT prophets

How's that for starting point?

"Baha'is and Christians believe in the same gospels." Yet, how far are Baha'i beliefs compared to most Christians. But you and I have both talked about how the writers weren't necessarily eye witnesses. Even if they were, they were fallible men and not the prophet. And, are the gospels we have today really exactly the same as when originally written? Is there any contradictions between the gospels? Have they been translated and interpreted accurately? You have someone who you say can interpret the gospels accurately. What are some of those interpretations? Other than the resurrection. We've taken care of that one pretty much. Thanks.

 

[oldbadger]

If it's God ordained, then that makes all the world's problems and evils exactly the way God wanted it?

So God wanted the world leaders to ignore Baha'u'llah, so we'd all go through the wars and misery?

It's even worse than that.
It doesn't matter at this time because a few folks who think they are God's chosen ones can be suffered, but in a World with a majority of folks who think that they were predestined=chosen to be 'in' whilst all dissenters would be excluded=unchosen by God.... by predestination...?

Couple that up to human nature and what do you get?

 

[oldbadger]

With all the world problems, it could very well be heading for a critical point to where the whole world asks the Baha'is to go ahead and try and fix the mess. But then, will the Baha'is be able to?

I certainly don't intend to follow all their laws? Then we'll see how nice they are to dissidents.

They will have a World Police Force.
When I think of police forces I usually think of our local Community Police Officer walking her area, but have you seen the films of police putting down the Catalan Elections?

But it's getting worse than that now.

A total silence by Bahais on this thread in response to my mention of my recent Spiritual Chapel visit and most fortunate cancer/asbestosis investigation results two days later.... got me looking into Bahai attitudes to Spiritualism.

It would read and appear as if Bahais do not accept Mediums, Healing or Spiritual meetings.

That might seem correct to you or other members, but Bahai guidance, control, government and supervision at Local and National Levels is all controlled (for now) by:-
SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLIES.

At best the whole faith seems as if a mess, at worst it looks as if it is similar to the Double-Think of Orwell's 1984.

 

[arthra]

So if you take 1260 plus 2300 divided by 3 and add 53 and then multiply that by pi, you watch, the Baha'i will come up with 1844. I don't know how they do it, but they do. Which amazes me, because everything else from the Bible, they say is not literal. Why not numbers?

Actually it's quite easy in our view. You have the year 1260 Anno Higirae coinciding with 1844 Anno Domini on the Gregorian calendar. Historically there were two movements separated by religion and distance. One was predominantly in North America called the Millerite movement that looked to the return of Christ in 1844. The other was a movement in Islam that looked to the fulfillment of prophecies of the appearance of the Mihdi or Qa'im in the year 1260 AH. Both were "messianic" and knew nothing of the other.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, but this is the only important thing...

"May 23 – Persian Prophet The Báb privately announces his revelation to Mullá Husayn, just after sunset, founding the Bábí faith (later evolving into the Bahá'í Faith as the Báb intended) in Shiraz, Persia (now Iran). Contemporaneously, on this day in nearby Tehran, was the birth of `Abdu'l-Bahá; the eldest Son of Bahá'u'lláh, Prophet-Founder of the Bahá'í Faith, the inception of which, the Báb's proclaimed His own mission was to herald. `Abdu'l-Bahá Himself was later proclaimed by Bahá'u'lláh to be His own successor, thus being the third "central figure" of the Bahá'í Faith.

So if you take 1260 plus 2300 divided by 3 and add 53 and then multiply that by pi, you watch, the Baha'i will come up with 1844. I don't know how they do it, but they do. Which amazes me, because everything else from the Bible, they say is not literal. Why not numbers?

After the Bab's death contention, conflict and even murders occured between some of the Bab's followers and the new Bahai followers. It was not peaceful.

And why some Christians, Muslims and Bahais would place such emphasis upon crazy-fangled numerical jumbles to produce prophets, like rabbits from top-hats, just amuses me. Yes, it deserves ridicule.

 

[Dawnofhope]

"Baha'is and Christians believe in the same gospels." Yet, how far are Baha'i beliefs compared to most Christians. But you and I have both talked about how the writers weren't necessarily eye witnesses. Even if they were, they were fallible men and not the prophet. And, are the gospels we have today really exactly the same as when originally written? Is there any contradictions between the gospels? Have they been translated and interpreted accurately? You have someone who you say can interpret the gospels accurately. What are some of those interpretations? Other than the resurrection. We've taken care of that one pretty much. Thanks.

Its good to have the resurrection sorted. That is probably the biggest between the Baha'i faith and Christianity for some Christians. They just can't get over the possibility that Jesus didn't literally rise from the dead. We have discussed the origins of the gospels and modern scholarship certainly provides a meaningful addition to that discussion. So we have the oral traditions, with a strong emphasis on the preaching of Paul, and the first gospels are written well after 20 years of Christ's crucifixion. Then we have translations and probable errors in on that front, especially when it comes to the symbolic verses.

Baha'u'llah as you know was born into a well renowned and respected family, his father being a minister in the court of the Shah. We could have followed in His father's footsteps but He chose a life of helping the down trodden and the poor. Though He never met the Bab He championed His cause, and instantly recognised the Divine inspiration of His verses when first presented. He had His first summons from God, for His mission to be in the worst prison of Tehran, so perhaps to exactly the same circumstances as Jesus being baptised by John and the descent of the Holy Spirit but the same principle.

The Life of Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

He was eventually released but banished forever from His homeland, to Bagdad. During His 10 year sojourn, He wrote an epistle titled the Kitab-i-Iqan to one of the uncles of the Bab, to explain who the Bab really was and the interconnections between Babism, Islam, and Christianity. This book of over 200 pages was written in less than 3 days and contains important explanations of some of the verses of the Olivet discourse (Jesus's final sermon).

The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

I quoted a verse to you earlier where Baha'u'llah chastises the Muslim Divines for believing that the Christians do not have the original gospel.

Latter He was to write to the rules of the earth, The pope, and a tablet to the Christians.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 9-17

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Pages 54-67

There are many more references to Christianity in Baha'u'llah's writings.

Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'u'llah's eldest son, leader of the Baha'i faith (appointed by Baha'u'llah in His Will and Testament), authorised interpreter, and perfect exemplar travelled to the West, including your homeland in 1912 for nearly 8 months and provided many explanations of perplexing Christian problems. There are many references to Christianity in Abdu'l-Baha's tablets. Due to suppression of the Baha'i Faith in the East, it was the Baha'is of North America who had a huge role in spreading the Baha'i Faith round the globe.

When the first pioneers came to New Zealand, one of our citizens had already become a Baha'i.

Stevenson, Margaret Beveridge – Biography – Te Ara Encyclopedia of New Zealand

As it turned out Baha'u'llah said that if His cause is suppressed then He will raise His call from the Heart of the Ocean.


In the East the light of His Revelation hath broken; in the West have appeared the signs of His dominion. Ponder this in your hearts, O people, and be not of those who have turned a deaf ear to the admonitions of Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Praised.... Should they attempt to conceal its light on the continent, it will assuredly rear its head in the midmost heart of the ocean, and, raising its voice, proclaim: 'I am the life-giver of the world!'

(Cited in "The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh: Selected Letters" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1982), pp. 78-79)

Perhaps the Ocean was the pacific, because the Baha'i faith is strong in my homeland.

 

[arthra]

It would read and appear as if Bahais do not accept Mediums, Healing or Spiritual meetings.
That might seem correct to you or other members, but Bahai guidance, control, government and supervision at Local and National Levels is all controlled (for now) by:-
SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLIES.

I'm happy to oblige you and offer my meagre understanding if you wish.
It's true that Baha'is are not interested in "spiritualism" per se. We don't go to Mediums. We do acknowledge people can have spiritual healing. For your further reading see:Spiritualism, Reincarnation and Related Subjects

Baha'is do elect Local and National Spiritual Assemblies but their jurisdiction is solely in Baha'i communities not outside or in the civil communities. We are non-partisan. We do not have any membership in political parties and we cannot hold any partisan political offices.

"If any person wishes to speak of government affairs, or to interfere with the order of government, the others must not combine with him because the Cause of God is withdrawn entirely from political affairs; the political realm pertains only to the Rulers of those matters; it has nothing to do with the souls who are exerting their utmost energy to harmonizing affairs, helping character and inciting (the people) to strive for perfections. Therefore no soul is allowed to interfere with (political) matters, but only in that which is commanded."3

The Non-Political Character of the Bahá'í Faith

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Baha'is and Christians believe in the same gospels.

Here's the common ground I believe Christians and Baha'is have in common:

We believe in an Omnipotent, All-Powerful God.
God has created the universe and all that exists
God has qualities of Love and Justice
God is concerned for His creation
Man is a special part of His creation and we have been created in His image
God out of concern for His creation and humanity has guided us through Great Teachers and/or prophets
One of those Great/Teachers or Prophets (Jesus) is exalted above all humans
God expects us to make a great effort to live in accordance with His teachings and to have Faith in Jesus
The OT prophets have provided God's guidance to the Jewish peoples
The Bible has a record of Jesus, the apostles, and the OT prophets
Jesus, the apostles, and the OT prophets we guided by God's unerring spirit
The Bible should be considered authentic and authoritative
We should love God with all our being and love our neighbours and enemies as Jesus taught
We should forgive others
We should be good as God is good
We believe that we have a soul and that there is an afterlife
We believe that evil is a real problem
We believe that Christ promised He would return and spoke of the signs that would accompany His Return.
The Returned Christ will bring in a new age or era in human history.
Jesus is the 'Son of God'
'Salvation' is intimately associated with Christ.
Jesus was crucified
His sacrifice enabled our salvation
The resurrection is a concept/reality of profound significance and importance

A Christian who knows her bible extremely well who I recently had an extended interfaith discussion identified the following differences in our theologies:

We differ in:

• the divinity of Jesus
• the work of Jesus accomplished on the cross: atonement
• the forgiveness of sin through Jesus
• the sin nature of mankind
• the resurrection
• the triune nature of the Godhead
• Redemption, propitiation, justification, sanctification, adoption, reconciliation
• Lucifer
• the miracles of Jesus
• the return of Jesus: when, its purpose and what it will accomplish
• the 'age to come'
• Sheol
• the OT prophets

How's that for starting point?

This is a clear cut and good information to know about Bahai; and, all the things Bahai disagree with are the cornerstones of the christian faith.

1. Christian's view of god is dependent on the divinity of christ not the other way around. If both of you believed in the same god, the same gospels, and the same message from the apostles whether they wrote it or not, I'd hope you'd take it as written from the bible not an interpretation of it. (Two messages from the same god doesn't make sense.)

2. Without Christ's atonement, there is no christian faith. Whether sins are inherited or the temptation is inherited, like in the OT, there needs to be some blood atonement for the forgiveness of sins. That's why you have wine as blood and bread as body. It's the sacrifice (blood) and life (mana/bread) of christ. Once you deviate from the atonement belief, it is no longer christian.

3. Forgiveness of sins through jesus is a must. If OT says animals can cover sins of god's chosen people with the jews, why say the blood of a human cannot be the final atonement thus forgiveness of sins in the NT. Forgiveness of sins is one of the central themes of the bible. That, and in christian view, why forgive others if you don't believe christ forgave you-if you are saying you believe in christian beliefs.

4. The sinful nature of mankind whether it's temptation to sin or inherited sin, this is a central theme in the bible too. Without sin or inherited temptation from sin, there'd be no need to believe in christ nor say one is saved. What christians do for others is a reflection of what christ did for them not separate from it.

5. The resurrection is a huge part of all denominations of the christian faith. Given you don't believe in atonement and nature of sin, I can see why you don't believe in the resurrection. However, it is not just spiritual but spiritual and literal go together in the christian faith. Once you depart the literal from the spiritual, you can believe in anything and call yourself spiritual but not religious. No one would need to be christian, or bahai for that matter, if some christians and bahai believe that god/creator cannot raise the dead. Somewhat like putting in god's mouth what he can and cannot do-from a christian point of view.

6. The triune nature of the godhead is also a cornerstone of the christian faith. Maybe it's you disagree with The Church's interpretation of it? Regardless the interpretation, you need to believe in the divinity of jesus and his literal role in salvation in order to see how the father/creator, son, and holy spirit are one with differing roles. People fuss over the definitions. I disagree with the trinity but the relationship with all three are in scripture no matter how we both interpret it.

7. This is all of christianity in a nutshell. But you need to know about forgiveness of sins and the divinity of christ to understand reconciliation from god and redemption/resurrection.

8. One Catholic on here told me that lucifer is a personification of evil. Maybe Bahai disagrees with denominational interpretations of these things but they are still extremely and literally important despite that. If you don't believe in evil, of course you wouldn't find a reason to be redeemed and saved. Yet, the "right/wrong" is a part of the christian faith. If Bahai believed in Lucifer/personified evil then they may find the need to be saved. It's a huge part of the christian faith. Without lucifer, no salvation.

9. Oh my gosh. The miracles of jesus is totally needed in the christian faith in order to believe in christ and the gospels. You no longer believe in the gospels as written when you take away christ's miracles. For example, if jesus did not raise the dead (his father rose the dead through jesus' faith in him), no one would have faith that there is a resurrection. So, giving the dead life is not only symbolic but the literal story needed in order for the disciples to "see" the works of christ not just hear him say it's all symbolism. Also, on that note, christ would not need to come if we stripped him of his divinity, role, miracles, and symbolized his teachings and kept general nature of his teachings that many religions share but are not the core of that faith.

10. If jesus doesn't return, then christian's faith in salvation would be moot.

11. I think Shoel is a Catholic teaching. Not many people like Catholics though they put the bible together. I'd assume they'd have more knowledge of the originals than those who broke off from them. (Telephone game)

12. What does Bahai believe differently about the OT prophets?

Instead of saying you believe in the bible, maybe say you believe in Bahaullah's interpretation of it. Differentiate yourself from saying you're a bahai christian to a Bahai who has some adopted christian beliefs.

 

[siti]

It's even worse than that.
It doesn't matter at this time because a few folks who think they are God's chosen ones can be suffered, but in a World with a majority of folks who think that they were predestined=chosen to be 'in' whilst all dissenters would be excluded=unchosen by God.... by predestination...?

Couple that up to human nature and what do you get?

Er...is it the United States of something...?

They will have a World Police Force.

It is the United States of something then??!!

 

[siti]

their jurisdiction is solely in Baha'i communities not outside or in the civil communities. We are non-partisan. We do not have any membership in political parties and we cannot hold any partisan political offices.

In that case, I'm sorry to tell you, you have zero chance of ever ruling the world. So much for the envisioned new world order. On the other hand, if you abandon democracy in favour of theocracy, then there is a precedent for that. Of the current modern-day theocracies you can choose between two models - Saudi Arabia or the Vatican. Which of these do you suppose the Baha'i world order would most resemble?

 

[siti]

Unless we are on the same page, our efforts will be dissipated and our achievements limited.

Indeed - but you didn't answer the question - I asked what a Baha'i economy would look like - you gave me links that talk about a just system of government. Of course the Baha'i administration doesn't have an economy such as the nations of the world currently have or the global "promised land" would need to have. How would that work? You say you dislike communism but how else could a single global economic entity function? There would be no place (presumably) for the free market - there would be no market at all except that by which each human obtained what they needed. So what? Would the shrewdest marketeers be allowed to amass personal wealth? What would stop them? And what would stop groups of the wealthy conglomerating in order to maximize their collective economic success? Of course they could only achieve wealth by maximizing profit which also minimizes the value of the financial resources of the less well-heeled - how would a united world economy prevent the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer (by comparison)? If it cannot then you have a capitalist system - and if it does then you have a communist one because there is no way that it is "just" for the children of a wealthy man to have plenty whilst the children of a poor man go hungry - regardless of the reason for the disparity. So which is it? Is a Baha'i economy capitalist or communist?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi........ this seems to be a common chatacteristic of many religions, that they point to conditions such as peace, better education, equality, etc and say, 'Look! Our religion caused this!'

You are seeing the Oneness of God in action in your observation.

Some Laws upon these matters have changed throughout history.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In that case, I'm sorry to tell you, you have zero chance of ever ruling the world. So much for the envisioned new world order. On the other hand, if you abandon democracy in favour of theocracy, then there is a precedent for that. Of the current modern-day theocracies you can choose between two models - Saudi Arabia or the Vatican. Which of these do you suppose the Baha'i world order would most resemble?

It resembles none of the current systems.

This link has information - Bahá'í administration - Wikipedia

This Link is a reply to a letter given by the Universal House of Justice - Administrative Order, Bahá'í

Regards Tony