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How are these Great Beings explained?

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I'm happy to oblige you and offer my meagre understanding if you wish.
It's true that Baha'is are not interested in "spiritualism" per se. We don't go to Mediums. We do acknowledge people can have spiritual healing.
Hello Arthra. I am most happy to receive your understandings, but Bahauallah didn't write any of that, and the folowing sentences, snatched at random from the offered writings, put the Bahai opinion firmly into its place:-
..................... to pay much attention to persons who are imbued with spiritualistic ideas is rather useless............
........................ in most cases, are an indication of a deep psychological disturbance.................avoid as much as possible giving undue consideration to such matters.


Arthra, Bahais talk about how spiritual they are, but they do not appear as if to acknowledge spirituality, to support it or to practice it.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I needed to answer your post twice.

Clearly you believe in some aspects of the Spirit of God.
This week (since last Wednesday at 11.00 am GMT) is one of the most extraordinary weeks in mine and my wife's lives. I haven't landed back to ground yet!

After increasing symptons of lung desease since July 16 until last Wednesday, increasing fluid on right lung, pkeurisy, signs of asbestos contact (plaques), a recent cancer pro-forma investigation which included bonchoscopy cameras, fluid biopsy, ultra-scan, CT scan, many Respiratory examinations, many X-rays and two specialists, we attended the specialist to discover the outcome of all.
A pleasantly non-plussed specialist sent me straight back down to be X-Rayed one more time, and by the time I got back to his office he had the new X-Ray on his screen. There was nothing there. I am clear.
We expected to hear how many Xmasses we might still have together, but at this time I am clear of symptoms.

Bear with me, please.
Because my extremely ill (late) wife was healed of her serious grande mal epilepsy and hysterical psuedo-seizures by Harry Edwards of Leatherhead (google him) in 1974, never having another until after he died circa 77'ish, I decided to visit a healer at a little spiritual chapel last Monday. This young woman, in similar dress as you might see exiting a nightclub on a Friday night, applied her incredibly hot hands to my head, back, shoulders and chest. The shock of the heat will be in my memory for all time. That was two days before we sat to hear the specialist.

I am open minded about the Spirit of God, danieldemol, more open minded than Bahais it seems, because I mentioned this event on this thread last Thursday and received 'nothing' in response to my post about it. Because of this I researched Bahai/healing and guess what? You people do not believe in the Spirit of God in total, do you?

And in a Bahai World the mediums and healers of the little spiritual chapel not far from here might be in difficult circumstances.

I wondered why I got no response.
I don’t know why you say we don’t believe in the Spirit of God, Baha’is would do the same thing you did, ie say our healing prayers and visit the doctor.

In a Baha’i world non-Baha’is would be quite free to practice their spiritual traditions, Baha’u’llah said to consort with the followers of all religions with the utmost friendliness
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
This is a clear cut and good information to know about Bahai; and, all the things Bahai disagree with are the cornerstones of the christian faith.

The Christian who wrote the list is from the USA, Protestant conservative background. A very nice person and in some respects may reflect Christian attitudes in the USA rather than what I grew up with going to the Scottish/Irish inspired Presbyterian church. I have ancestors that are hardline protestant in Northern Ireland. Bad blood between those Protestants and Catholics so hard to know where the love of Christ was with all the animosity. It used to be said there would never be peace in Ireland. To know some members of my family is to appreciate why that might be true, and I have little inclination to return to the Christian fold.:)

I could analyse my friends list from many angles, perhaps sometime soon. For me, Jesus and His Teachings are just as much a cornerstone of my Faith as Baha'u'llah. I know that doesn't sit comfortably with you and many other people besides, but that is who I am and what I believe in.

Instead of saying you believe in the bible, maybe say you believe in Bahaullah's interpretation of it. Differentiate yourself from saying you're a bahai christian to a Bahai who has some adopted christian beliefs.

As an aside I met up with a Christian Chaplain who joined the Baha'is celebrate our anniversary occasion over the weekend. He is part of the interfaith group we have in town, so I'm investigatng joining. That would be nice. Interfaith discussion where we can see each other's smiles.:D
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As an aside I met up with a Christian Chaplain who joined the Baha'is celebrate our anniversary occasion over the weekend. He is part of the interfaith group we have in town, so I'm investigatng joining. That would be nice. Interfaith discussion where we can see each other's smiles.:D

A Christain Pastor also came to our function. I attend his Sunday services. Quite funny that to go to Church I first had to be a Baha'i, would have had to drag me in or take me in a coffin before that. :D;)

Such fun, regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
A Christain Pastor also came to our function. I attend his Sunday services. Quite funny that to go to Church I first had to be a Baha'i, would have had to drag me in or take me in a coffin before that. :D;)

Such fun, regards Tony

I just love that we each have a different journey in life and to see the different colours of Faith. I've had my die hard moments too...still do. Maybe I'll get my sword out tomorrow and try some real debating.:)
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
In tribal communities didn't they have aunts and grandmothers and other women help with the kids while some women went out gathering food and water and other things? And doesn't that still happen sometimes? But modern society has created the nuclear family and has pushed the extended family into being a thing of the past. I wonder if that's part of what Baha'u'llah has brought?

I know tribal societies varied a ton. but often everyone just chipped in, in whatever way they could. Co-operation was necessary for survival. Extended families also worked incredibly well usually.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
.............. We are non-partisan. We do not have any membership in political parties and we cannot hold any partisan political offices..............

Of course you don't.
But in a Bahai World the Local, National and Universal Houses of Justice would be controlling the World.

That's one of the key reasons why they were initiated.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I don’t know why you say we don’t believe in the Spirit of God, Baha’is would do the same thing you did, ie say our healing prayers and visit the doctor.
Why do you misquote me?
What I wrote was in front of you when you wrote the above.
That is very bad. Now please read it more carefully:-
Clearly you believe in some aspects of the Spirit of God.
You people do not believe in the Spirit of God in total, do you?

.....................please don't do that any more.

In a Baha’i world non-Baha’is would be quite free to practice their spiritual traditions, Baha’u’llah said to consort with the followers of all religions with the utmost friendliness
Please. Stop there.
Bahais do not believe in Spiritualism, or Healing.
And yet they have 'Spiritual Assemblies'.
Please the Bahai Writings which I quoted to Arthra.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Of course you don't.
But in a Bahai World the Local, National and Universal Houses of Justice would be controlling the World.

That's one of the key reasons why they were initiated.

So the plan is that everyone becomes Baha'i', they all stop voting or participating in elections, and government, and then Baha'i' takes over by default. Is that it?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The Christian who wrote the list is from the USA, Protestant conservative background. A very nice person and in some respects may reflect Christian attitudes in the USA rather than what I grew up with going to the Scottish/Irish inspired Presbyterian church. I have ancestors that are hardline protestant in Northern Ireland. Bad blood between those Protestants and Catholics so hard to know where the love of Christ was with all the animosity. It used to be said there would never be peace in Ireland. To know some members of my family is to appreciate why that might be true, and I have little inclination to return to the Christian fold.:)

I could analyse my friends list from many angles, perhaps sometime soon. For me, Jesus and His Teachings are just as much a cornerstone of my Faith as Baha'u'llah. I know that doesn't sit comfortably with you and many other people besides, but that is who I am and what I believe in.



As an aside I met up with a Christian Chaplain who joined the Baha'is celebrate our anniversary occasion over the weekend. He is part of the interfaith group we have in town, so I'm investigatng joining. That would be nice. Interfaith discussion where we can see each other's smiles.:D

Anyone can believe in christ teachings (his virtues and abstract values) and not be christin-part of the body of christ. When you say you have "christian beliefs" we assume you believe in the core tenants of the christian faith which includes those Bahai disagree with. It would be less confusion if you said you believed in christ's teachings instead. In America, even that, people will think you are christian not Bahai.

Take me, for example. I believe that the spirit of christ exists. This spirit is in all christians (the people who make up christ's body with similar core beliefs) together at Mass. Some people come to Mass say Christmas and they are not christians. They and The Church believe they experience christ love, compassion, and all other virtues. Anyone can believe that. The body of christ (christians) have specific teachings for salvation that because of those differences, Bahai are not apart of.

That is okay. You can be part of the body of humanity of love without being part of the body of christ in his life, death, and resurrection.

In America, when you say you believe in christ's teachings, everyone automatically assumes you are christian. Then when you say you believe the resurrection is symbolic and spiritual they look at you funny because if you believe in christ teachings you should believe in the cornerstone of the christian faith. Christians cannot separate the two.

In Buddhism, you can believe The Buddha's teachings to some extent. A lot of nonbuddhist do. However, if you want to stop rebirth or end samsara for yourself, The Buddha has specific practices (not teachings) for that, that does not fit with bahai (nor hindu even) teachings.

Same as christianity. Salvation, christ divinity, resurrection, redemption, and reconciliation are parts of what you need "to be saved." The body of christ comes together because of their need for salvation, to live the life of christ, die in their inherited or temptation to sin as christ's flesh/cross, and be literally resurrected back to god. When you use spiritual, that does not mean it's symbolic. It is a spiritual event. Christians, though, believe this spiritual event is literal not symbolic. In other words spiritual does not mean symbolic.

I've said throughout this thread that there is nothing wrong with Bahai beliefs in and of themselves. Muslims belief in christ. That's their belief as interpreted by the Quran. Once a Muslim says they are saved by the blood of christ by christ's teachings, there is a problem. But if you want to achieve Moksha, be enlightened, or be saved, it goes beyond christ's teachings and interpretations of them.

Its good you are able to express your thoughts and reflect well on this thread. Some bahai have really improved in that because the consideration of understanding thinks of the other person to not oneself. That is also christ teachings. Doesnt mean one is part of the body, just means you love others as christ.

Being part of the body of christ is the central theme of christ's teachings. It's not humanity, it's specific christians who hold the same cornerstone belief and ideally supposed to worship together as one body. Humanity isn't the body of christ.

That is why what Bahai say here does not add up. I don't see christ's teachings separate from the body of christ (being christian). I don't know about there, but in America, a lot of heads will turn when you say you believe in christ teachings and are bahai without.

I mean, if the body of christ is symbolic therefore the Eucharist would be symbolic, do you take the Eucharist if you go to Mass?
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
One of you Baha'is said that there was a rule on how to interpret days, weeks, months and years... and Baha'i have used it to change 31/2 days and 42 months and 1260 days into 1260 years. And they bounce between "solar" years to "lunar" years.
More correct term based on Scriptures is 'a day of God'. It can be counted as a year or as a 1000 year. There is no such a term in Scriptures as 'prophetic' day or year.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Anyone can believe in christ teachings (his virtues and abstract values) and not be christin-part of the body of christ. When you say you have "christian beliefs" we assume you believe in the core tenants of the christian faith which includes those Bahai disagree with.

I work in an area where language and communication needs to be clear and precise. That doesn't mean I'm any better at it than anyone else. I have certainly have had moments on this thread of communicating poorly.

There is a great deal of confusion and emotion in the arena of religion. It can be challenging for people in my country to discuss religion at all because of the risk of misunderstandings.

I would argue that we all have Christian beliefs and there is nothing wrong with saying that. The problem comes when people make assumptions. Whether we talk about teachings of Christ or Christian beliefs there will always be some who have misunderstand and make erroneous assumptions.

It would be less confusion if you said you believed in christ's teachings instead. In America, even that, people will think you are christian not Bahai.

I don't live in America and so the language I choose may have a different meaning and context where I live.

When you say you have "christian beliefs" we assume you believe in the core tenants of the christian faith which includes those Bahai disagree with.


Take me, for example. I believe that the spirit of christ exists. This spirit is in all christians (the people who make up christ's body with similar core beliefs) together at Mass. Some people come to Mass say Christmas and they are not christians. They and The Church believe they experience christ love, compassion, and all other virtues. Anyone can believe that. The body of christ (christians) have specific teachings for salvation that because of those differences, Bahai are not apart of.

The body of Christ can mean different things to different people. It can mean being a Christian, belonging to a church, or being part of the community of faithful believers. It can also refer to the body of Christ's teachings. Although I consider myself to be a believer in Christ, I avoid saying "I am part of the body of Christ" although technically it can be true depending on how the phrase is devised. Once again, tis phrased may be used and emphasised slightly different in New Zealand compared to the USA.

That is okay. You can be part of the body of humanity of love without being part of the body of christ in his life, death, and resurrection.

Of course.

In America, when you say you believe in christ's teachings, everyone automatically assumes you are christian. Then when you say you believe the resurrection is symbolic and spiritual they look at you funny because if you believe in christ teachings you should believe in the cornerstone of the christian faith. Christians cannot separate the two.

Christianity appears different in the USA. My American Christian friend has an intensity about her Christian Faith, that has a different feel to it. I have never met anyone who spends an hour per day studying the bible for example. New Zealander Christians by comparison seem more relaxed and easy going. They would not question my use of language to describe my beliefs but my American Christian friend would.

In Buddhism, you can believe The Buddha's teachings to some extent. A lot of nonbuddhist do. However, if you want to stop rebirth or end samsara for yourself, The Buddha has specific practices (not teachings) for that, that does not fit with bahai (nor hindu even) teachings.

I'm good with that, but I'm a New Zealander, so it doesn't bother me. If I had grown up as a Buddhist, been a Buddhist, and had ancestors going about many centuries that were Buddhist, I would probably think and feel differently about it.

Same as christianity. Salvation, christ divinity, resurrection, redemption, and reconciliation are parts of what you need "to be saved." The body of christ comes together because of their need for salvation, to live the life of christ, die in their inherited or temptation to sin as christ's flesh/cross, and be literally resurrected back to god. When you use spiritual, that does not mean it's symbolic. It is a spiritual event. Christians, though, believe this spiritual event is literal not symbolic. In other words spiritual does not mean symbolic.

Yes, thank you. I know Christian belief and its many nuances well.

I've said throughout this thread that there is nothing wrong with Bahai beliefs in and of themselves. Muslims belief in christ. That's their belief as interpreted by the Quran. Once a Muslim says they are saved by the blood of christ by christ's teachings, there is a problem. But if you want to achieve Moksha, be enlightened, or be saved, it goes beyond christ's teachings and interpretations of them.

It does go beyond that, I agree. It takes us to ultimate reality or the true nature of the universe we live in.

Its good you are able to express your thoughts and reflect well on this thread. Some bahai have really improved in that because the consideration of understanding thinks of the other person to not oneself. That is also christ teachings. Doesnt mean one is part of the body, just means you love others as christ.

Being part of the body of christ is the central theme of christ's teachings. It's not humanity, it's specific christians who hold the same cornerstone belief and ideally supposed to worship together as one body. Humanity isn't the body of christ.

Sure.

That is why what Bahai say here does not add up. I don't see christ's teachings separate from the body of christ (being christian). I don't know about there, but in America, a lot of heads will turn when you say you believe in christ teachings and are bahai without.

I mean, if the body of christ is symbolic therefore the Eucharist would be symbolic, do you take the Eucharist if you go to Mass?

When I spoke to the Christian Chaplain at the Baha'i bicentenary, the first question he asked me was about the volunteer work I do at the Christian medical centre. That's how he sees me, and I see him as one who promotes interfaith dialogue and understanding. Its what we do and how we are around people. I doubt if either of us really care about labels like Baha'i or Christian. They are just words after all. :)
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Of course you don't.
But in a Bahai World the Local, National and Universal Houses of Justice would be controlling the World.

That's one of the key reasons why they were initiated.

They would be Administering to the Baha'is. I see the worlds Governments would be most likely asking advice from the Universal House of Justice in the distant future.

Baha'u'llah has said mankinds perversity will long Continue, humanity is not yet ready to submit fully to God and His Laws.

Thus Humanity will continue with Mans rule and God also has allowed this to be so. A time will come when Just Monarchs will return, I see they will work with Just Governments.

We missed the boat of the Most Great Peace. An era of Lesser Peace is now required and is the next goal as we find our Unity. This Lesser Peace will be Governed by a Gathering of Elected representitives of each Nation.

It may be that the Baha'is will have representation on this Body.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So the plan is that everyone becomes Baha'i', they all stop voting or participating in elections, and government, and then Baha'i' takes over by default. Is that it?

Baha'is follow the laws of the country, they vote in elections.

They vote for a person on their ability and their values.

Regards Tony
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
They would be Administering to the Baha'is. I see the worlds Governments would be most likely asking advice from the Universal House of Justice in the distant future.
So, in a country where 85% of the people would be Bahais, the other 15 % would be able to hold elections and form governments, with laws for all etc? Interesting.

Baha'u'llah has said mankinds perversity will long Continue, humanity is not yet ready to submit fully to God and His Laws.
His Laws?
What Laws are those?

Thus Humanity will continue with Mans rule and God also has allowed this to be so. A time will come when Just Monarchs will return, I see they will work with Just Governments.
...Just Monarchs will return..... will return? Which Just Monarch have ruled before?
And please don't name Monarchs who had few powers..... !

We missed the boat of the Most Great Peace.
OK..... so Predestination didn't work there, then.

An era of Lesser Peace is now required and is the next goal as we find our Unity. This Lesser Peace will be Governed by a Gathering of Elected representitives of each Nation.
Have you got a given date for that accomplishment?

It may be that the Baha'is will have representation on this Body.

Regards Tony
May be.
I suppose anything is possible.
 
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